Please, lets not let this one degenerate.

Personal experiences welcome, googled evidence welcome also.

I would like to hear what everyones experiences and view are, regarding behavioural change due to castration or spaying.

To my mind, for the record. Neutering can only be guaranteed to prevent reproduction. It may or may not have beneficial side effects such as lowering cancer risk (and preventing testicular cancer).
It DOES have non beneficial/bad side effects.

Heres what one website has to say:

Roaming, urine marking in the house, and mounting people, inanimate objects and other animals: A majority of dogs (50-70%) show very significant decreases in these behaviors following castration. Importantly, the age of the dog at the time of castration had little influence on outcome. (taken from http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/petpop/proscons.html )

Obviously from that one can see, that between 30% - 50% of dogs do NOT show significant decreases in these behaviours. Thus to neuter specifically for the reduction in those behaviours may not be successful.

Aggression: Castration reduces, but does not eliminate, aggression toward other dogs in the family and toward family members. In some dogs, there is also a modest reduction in aggression toward unfamiliar dogs.
No stats for this one, same website as above.

So castrating dogs to eliminate aggression towards family members, family dogs and unfamiliar dogs is also NOT going to work. (This is a PRO neutering site btw.)

This site takes its stats and references from Hart BL: Effects of neutering and spaying on the behavior of dogs and cats: Questions and answers about practical concerns. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 198:1204, 1991.

To name but one.

Heres something I had't even thought of..

Hart, B.L. (2001). Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 219(1): 51-56.  ISSN: 0003-1488.

            NAL Call Number:  41.8 Am3

            Abstract:  OBJECTIVE: To determine whether gonadectomy predisposes dogs to development of age-related behavioral changes linked to cognitive impairment. DESIGN: Cohort study. ANIMALS: 29 sexually intact male dogs, 63 spayed female dogs, and 47 castrated male dogs 11 to 14 years old. PROCEDURE: Information on possible impairments in 4 behavioral categories linked to cognitive impairment (orientation in the home and yard, social interactions, house training, and sleep-wake cycle) was obtained from owners of the dogs by use of a structured telephone interview format. A second interview was performed 12 to 18 months after the initial interview, and differences in responses were evaluated. RESULTS: Sexually intact male dogs were significantly less likely than neutered dogs to progress from mild impairment (i.e., impairment in 1 category) to severe impairment (i.e., impairment in > or = 2 categories) during the time between the first and second interviews. This difference was not attributable to differences in ages of the dogs, duration of follow-up, or the owners' perceptions of the dogs' overall health. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that the presence of circulating testosterone in aging sexually intact male dogs may slow the progression of cognitive impairment, at least among dogs that already have signs of mild impairment. Estrogens would be expected to have a similar protective role in sexually intact female dogs; unfortunately, too few sexually intact female dogs were available for inclusion in the study to test this hypothesis. There may be a need to evaluate possible methods for counteracting the effects of loss of sex hormones in gonadectomized dogs.



So, roughly translating that, intact dogs are less likely to show signs of old age/senility/general mental dropping to bits than neutered ones.

Anyone got any more?

/Ems off to the library

Surely this has already been down to death :(

Daisy

I really don't think this thread was needed after the palarva of the last one. :(

Im asking because i want to know. If you dont know, dont care, or just want to make sad emoticon faces, then dont post.

Em

Actually theemx, it is a subject I am interested in as I will be soon making the choice as to whether or not neuter my own dog, but considering the mess the old post got into, is it suprising that when you start it all off again that people would rather lick a cheese grater? :D - There you go, there is a smiley one just for you, no need to thank me, I know you already apreciate it :D

I like the smiley ones!

Still there we go, a post that could have been interesting, minus the silliness of the previous one, (Which is now locked and will sink into the mystical place all locked threads go, thus rendering the information fairly hard to find.), this one will doubtless go the same way.

Is there some sort of time limit before which one cannot ask a sensible question?

I believe i WAS starting a sensible post -- ive checked it again and i cant see anything offensive, controversial etc in it.

However the replies are not sensible, and i daresay neither is this one, thus again no constructive discussion will take place.

Em

I think it would have made common sense to wait a while before raising the subject again, if only to give everyone involved a chance to calm down, in the hope that when the debate continues, people are more rational and thoughtful of others feelings and opinions.

Isn't this the reason why the post was locked in the first place?

Sadly Em, it seems as if there are a couple of people currently members who believe that theirs are the only valid points!   I have kept entire dogs, male and female, with few problems - one has to be sensible and aware, obviously when the bitches are in season.   We have bitches spayed between 5 & 7 generally, because of the risk of pyometra, but otherwise, we have always managed a multi-dog household.

Margot

:D

I do think its a tad 'odd' perhaps, to assume that complete removal testes in a male dog WOULDNT result in some unwanted side effects.

After all, at one time we used to castrate sexually immature human males for exactly (one of) those side effects. Castrati, castrated male singers, were castrated pre-puberty BECAUSE it prevented them from maturing, preserving that high pitched voice.

Yet I see people recommending castration of male dogs before they have reached sexual maturity, and pooh poohing worries about stunting or halting a dogs maturation.

Em

Re the castrati - they were also renowned for being remarkably tall (documented), which backs up the theory about the growth plates not closing at the normal time. At agricultural colege we were taught that castrated ram lambs also grow taller than entire ones, and lay down more body fat - regarded as a good thing in the old days, but in these health-conscious days an overfat lamb is worth less at slaughter, so more ram lambs are left entire. It seems logical to assume that dogs are affected in the same way.

Yep, I have seen that quoted for both dogs and horses.

Whilst on the face of it, certainly in horses, more height may be a desired thing, does this not affect the density of the extra bone growth?

I know in horses again, the density of the bone is valued and presumably in long limbed dogs like sighthounds, (very prone to bone cancers) it is also important (although not for teh same reasons as in horses, since we dont ride greyhounds, LOL).

Off to look that one up now i think.

Em

That's a good point about bone density - oestrogen is reputedly vital for ensuring good bone density in women, so might not bitches which are spayed early suffer from a degree of osteoporosis?

Oooh, yes!

Again, people, for whatever reason, seem to like to simplify a spay operation, yet the human equivalent is not taken nearly so lightly.

Em

Hi Em,

I've only ever once, mistakenly, neutered a young bitch on veterinary advice, without her having had a season (we didn't know any better back then) :(  She remained puppy like in behaviour and attitude, lacked confidence, had no physical substance in that for her size she had the legs of a stick insect.   Her coated moulted all year round - top coat and undercoat.  The undercoat turned to felt if she wasn't groomed to the skin at least twice a week - she was a real water babe so that was an added problem with a thick and unruly coat.  She became mildy incontinent (urinary) mid life which distressed her as she was a wonderfully loving and exceptionally clean little dog.

I've kept both sexes of my current long coated breed entire for around 16 years but would possibly consider now (as a safety precaution against pyo) speying an older bitch that was not to be shown or bred from.  Quite a few friends have lost their girls to pyo and I have a terrible fear of it having lost our family rabbit to it at 9.5 years which was a huge shock and a learning curve that I'd rather have only read about than actually experienced.

Regards, Teri

 

HI Teri

My first Belgian had a pyo at 10 and a half, very distressing for me as she was my world; she came through it and lived til nearly 16, but we had the coat change etc (not that i cared... :) I was just glad she was alive to share more time with me).

Lindsay
x

Interesting point re horses... I shall consult someone I know who studies Stallions and equine behaviour to see if he has any input on this and come back to you.

I do know that horses that are left entire for longer can be more forward with more confidence. They also develop a crest and more muscle tone I believe. I have a gelding who was cut early and a gelding who was cut late. The gelding who was cut early is a worrier and is not so good at looking after himself with other horses. The later cut gelding is a much more confident animal and is therefore happier in more situations.

Margot, I think there were a few people on the old thread who thought their and their alone opinions counted. There were some valid point's made on both sides of the argument, it is just a shame that it had to get personal and heated, else it would have been a very informative and interesting debate.

I was under the impression it was locked because we were really rather getting off the point (which wasnt 'actually' about the pro's and cons of neutering, it was about a westies inappropriate scent marking).

Im afraid i have to do these things when i think of them, as i dont generally have the time to sit about searching the net for scientific stuff.

Erm .. also i have a tendancy to forget!

Em

Well like I said it is just inapropiate at this time - IMO :D

I for one am glad of such posts as I am the minute considering whether to neuter or not my 9 month Yorkie, as he is scenting in the house, masturbating on objects.

Before coming on this forum I was under the impression that every dog should be neutered is they werent going to be used for breeding, and to have a dog neutered was good for health reasons as it stopped Testicular cancer.  Since being on here my dog was saved from being neutered at 7 month as my vet suggested as he said he had too much testosterone (he was having his final injections at the time and was a bit fiesty).  So thanks for discussing this as I can now weigh up the pros and cons and decide which is the better of the two evils.

My personal feeling, would be to let him grow up, adn then see.

At nine months he is a teenager (as his behaviour would suggest). You can train him (or try) not to hump things, you could give him his own humpy toy and reward him for humping that alone (yeah, its embarrassing when visitors come round and your dog presents them with 'humpy rabbit'...), and remove, or do not reward him, for h umping other items.

If you can say that you will NEVER let your dog mate a bitch unplanned (and most of us probably couldnt 100%), and that if he DID you would take every step to be responsible for that litter, then i see no wrong in leaving nature as it is.

Neutering will prevent testicular cancer, simply because the dog no longer has testicles. After a few weeks after the op, it will then prevent getting a bitch in pup.

Everything else is a 'maybe' afaik. If you are aware of those maybes, and know what to do should they arise, then thats as much as you can do towards going into it with your eyes open.

Em

My friend had her male JRT done when he was 5 months old, he is now 6 years old and is very aggessive to male dogs. *shrug*

Thats hard to say why. Could be because he was neutered, could be because of something that happened to him, could be because he wasnt socialised etc etc.

Em

In my experience neutering does absolutely JACK SH%T! Except for the fact that the coat sometimes may become dull and at dog parks they tend to be mounted more by male dogs because they don't have the "scent". I pity who say that it greatly reduces the risk of testicular cancers but the chances are i think like 2% and after neutering it is less then half a percent. Also in my breed , if neutered to soon then it closes growth plates which leads to very leggy dogs.

Unless you have an unspayed bitch living in your household then neutering doesn't prevent anything.. how would you like it if we cut off YOUR testicles :P , i wouldn't like it :)

Yeah he only humps one particular thing so its not too bad, I think we have decided against neutering.  I can 99% guarantee he wont get to a bitch to mate so theres no reason for him to be done and were noticing differences as he is growing up and maturing as you say hes only a teenager at the mo.

Bit worrying vets suggest castration at such an early age tho.....

I've had the experience of having two bitches spayed.

One at 18 months old and the other I've recently had spayed at 7yo.
In my breed Boxers there is a high risk of bitches becoming incontinent after spaying.

The one at 18 months was spayed due to having bad phantom after her season and I
didn't want to put her through that again. She died at 10yo due to kidney tumour and only
became incontinent because of the tumour. She was fit and healthy prior to this and was really
a typical Boxer.

My second bitch I had spayed at 7yo. This was after alot of thought - she had mammary glands removed
due to mammary lumps. I had her spayed at the same time as mammary removal. Not the best thing to do,
But she decided to have a phantom (one of several since being bred from) and produce milk when we hoped to get her lumps done.
It was also delayed as she had a bad ulcerated eye which was taking forever to heal.
So far she hasn't become incontinent.
I decided that as she phantomed after every season (she cycled every 6-9 months) it would help reduce the risk
of further mammary lumps if she was spayed. Although there was no medical evidence to support this.

I would never get a bitch spayed before she had a season.
In both bitches that have been spayed there have been no behavioural changes. My first bitch even kept her waistline..
This one has always been a challenge where weight has been concerned and is slightly porky..so she'll have
to go on a diet.

I have a friend that prefers to keep their dogs entire unless there is a medical condition that necessitates
being spayed or castrated. They don't like the spay/castration being done as routine op, they see it as something
else to line the vets pockets....they've been in dogs half a century or more too :)

My experiences are with the dogs i own now, dogs ive had in the past and of course dogs i know really well.

As mentioned before, neutered at 18 months, Rocky went from happy go lucky, able to befriend most dogs, able to avoid the ones that didnt want a friend, and ignore bullying etc from awkward dogs, to being very defensive, fear aggressive, pinning submissive dogs down adn challenging larger, more imposing dogs.

I can only link that to being neutered, the changes started to appear within a week of the op and i had NO idea why at the time, because other people and vets told me 'neutering your dog will not change him'.

Abby, 10 year old saluki x, spayed at 9 1/2 due to phantom pregnancys and mammary lumps. I felt the benefits outweighed the risks, but didnt feel that a mammary strip was warranted as only one lump was mammary the rest just in the general area.

Since then, yes her coat has got longer (she is smooth, never had any feathering or much under coat, now she has a long tail feathering and LOTS of under coat). She is mildly incontinent BUT she is an elderly dog so i couldnt say if its the spay or age causing that.

Saffy, a previous bitch. She was spayed under my care, already a mildly dog aggressive bitch. I had NEVER been told that spaying an aggressive bitch can worsen the aggression. Had i known that, perhaps i wouldnt have had her spayed, however again i cannot entirely attribute that to her aggression as she turned out to have a brain tumour. She was pts.
One vet suggested that she had always had a brain tumour, but that the hormonal changes caused by the spay had caused it to change. I havent researched that yet.

Dilly - lurcher.
Neutered at 6 months old, before he reached sexual maturity. Now three years old, still a puppy in his head. Whilst he has relatively good dog to dog skills, he is VERY immature, still does not cock his leg. He is also a very phobic dog, very nervous in certain situations and i think that has something to do with him not maturing fully. He has a very fluffy coat, unlike most of his breeding (bedlington x whippet), very woolly, fluffy and absorbent. Matts easily and too long. (Not all, obviously i realise there are other causes of nervousness!). If i had my time over with him again, he would not be neutered.

Pteppic. Six months old today. Entire, starting to show signs of maturing sexually, beginning to assert his dominance on the other dogs in teh house (with very little positive result i might add). Wont be neutered until i find a damn good reason to do so!

I have to say, this thread is more prompted by the fact im getting VERY sick of people pushing such things as neutering and vaccination without ever once mention that there ARE risks involved. These people might be people on forums, but frequently, they are VETS.

We all want to do our best for our pets, and it makes me very angry that often we are not given the full facts before being required to make a decision.

I dont disagree that neutering (and vaccination) have their benefits and their place, but making any decision based on only half the facts is dangerous!

Em

Well I think it has decided me that neutering my Yankee will probably not help the problems with him fighting with my Cav. I thought I could perhaps still have him done so that when my puppy comes into season he could live with her instead of having 3 dogs in 3 rooms, but I have heard that a neutered male can still mate and tie with a bitch, and obviously that's not something I want to happen while I am out at work as they could hurt themselves. So I guess someone will have to be boarded out while she is in season. :-(

Not sure on teh circumstances of the fighting. Neutering the more natural 'under' *can* help , but not always. Deciding who IS that dog is often very hard and obviously neutering the wrong one wont help.

Yep a neutered male can and sometimes will tie, so no leaving ANY neutered dog alone with an in season bitch is not wise.

Em

We had our springer cross castrated at around 6 months - he is now a lovely 3 1/2 year old but he does always seem to be other dogs 'bitch' :D  I really don't think it made any difference to his agression that he had at the time and like fools we believed what the vet told us. Pure and simple he was just an adolescent dog going through adolescent things which, if dealt with correctly can be sorted without the need for an op - all it really ended up doing was to make him put on weight easier - he is not agressive anymore and has actually gone the opposite way where he is timid and reserved.

We won't be getting our boxer done, he is staying intact - and the way he walks with the best 'swagger' I've ever seen would look pretty stupid without his nuts :D

We had our crossbreed neutered at 8 months (he is now 18 months old). I did so on the advice of the vet and i admit that, at the time, I didn't know any better and the 'cons' were not spelled out to me. I have learned A LOT about dogs in the last year and I will not have any male dogs I may own in the future neutered so young unless through medical necessity.

I feel lucky that our boy does not appear to have suffered any behavioural/personality changes and is perfectly confident around other dogs. He does occasionally attract unwanted attention from entire males (always Labs!! :rolleyes: ) but that doesn't happen often, thankfully. I cannot comment on whether his coat texture has changed as, being a crossbreed, I don't know what his adult coat should be like anyway. However, it is beautifully glossy. My OH maintains that neutering did settle him a bit as he was extremely boisterous but I reckon that the improvement in behaviour could have happened for a number of reasons and would be reluctant to say that castration was the sole cause of this.

I have sought advice from a number of Newfie breeders to gain a consensus on when is the right time to have my Newfie bitch spayed and they agree that 18 months of age is about right so I'll be waiting at least til then. I am told that brown Newfs can be more prone to phantom pregnancies and I do not want to put my girl through that unnecessarily. I have been told to expect a coat change too as the undercoat can become thicker.

I wish I had been more aware of the facts before I had my boy neutered as I would certainly have waited til he was older and I think vets should be more forthcoming about the possible 'cons' rather than just selling the 'pros'.

LOL - our cross 'WANTS' the attention of labs, he loves them, perhaps I should be a little worried :D

Hi
I have seen this thread on other forums and it usually gets quite heated.  For quite a while now we have had only bitches [this alone seems to cause mixed feelings as some folk dont think that multi bitch households work but I wont get into that since we have not had any problems]. 

We have had bitches speyed before their first season and they have lived long full and happy lives - into their teens.  They did not remain puppyish anymore than their counterparts that we kept for showing.  Their coats did not go haywire, they did not become incontinent until well into their "two" figures and only one of them needed treatment, any bitch speyed or not can become incontinent.  Their temperaments did not change.  They were still sweet and loving their whole life. They were not over sexed.  I could go on and on.  However the only thing I will say is that one or two of them [not them all] did tend to put on weight easily.

The choice to spey is an individual one and I dont think there are any real rights or wrongs.  I do however feel that if more dogs [male and female] were speyed/neutered then all the hundreds of thousands of healthy dogs and puppies PTS every year the world over would be dramatically reduced.  There are many pure bred dogs that end on in these shelters. You only have to look at all the breed rescues to see the extent of the problem.

We have also kept a couple of male dogs - both were neutered. They were much adored companions as all our dogs are. With a mixed dog household we considered it better and easier on the dogs to be neutered and again we did not have any problems. 

If we were going to rehome one of our adult bitches [ Hypothetically speaking] we would have her neutered before we did so.  This is something we have never done [rehoming one of our adults] nor would we consider it.

Incidently this is just our opinion and if anyone feels offended - it was not meant. 

Neeva

Not offended in the slightest... as ive said, there ARE benefits to be had from spaying/neutering.

No chance of pyometra in a spayed bitch, etc etc.

For my reasons, I choose not to, although if i had an entire bitch, i would quite probably go for having her spayed after she had matured, so around 2ish depending on breed.

Im not against anyone getting a dog neutered, i AM very much against people going into it blind and very many people seem to do so.

Id say the same things about keeping a bitch only household, having seen the horror of two bitches trying to kill one another. Do it by all means, but know and minimse the risks first!

Em

There is a condition called 'stump pyometra' which can only occur in a speyed bitch though, which can be ever worse, because it's not expected as the animal is speyed :(

Never heard of that!

Ok so then we cannot say that spaying bitches 100% prevents pyometra.

So the ONLY thing it DEFINATELY does for bitches is prevent pregnancy.

Em

I have my breeding bitches spayed at around 7 years to avoid Pyometra or the effects of a subclinical case affecting general health in later life.  I accept the cons of increased appetite and less correct coat in this case.  I also admit that not having five in season bitches (only two) all cycling one after the other is a benefit from the management point of view as it means less restriction on everyones freedom, as taking the ones not in season out seperately is a chore and they get pestered because males can smell their in season companions on them.

Thankfully to the untrained eye the coats in my breed don't alter horendously (though teh moulting pattern is upset and they don't seem to loose their coats in one go as previously), and I am capable of being strict with their food, though stealing and scavenging do become problems, and I have had more than one case of badly upset tummy from something picked up and eaten in the park or on the street.

I had Phoebe spayed at 2. Her weight is now more difficult to control, but other than that it has made no difference to her at all.

My friend had her Springer castrated at 2 and his coat went woolly and puppy-like. It had no other effects at all.

Willis is entire, and when I took him to meet a castrated dane friend he did nothing but slobber over him and mount him. The other dane wasn't particularly bothered about it at first, but got increasingly annoyed when Willis just would not accept him as male or female and just continued to sniff, slobber and mount.