Indeed, being better informed as I am now, i do not listen to such sweeping statements as yours!

Sadly instead of coming across sensible people who could shed light on both the pros and cons of neutering, i was guided by people like yourself.

Many users on here DO know my case, although perhaps you haven't been here that long. Rocky was neutered at 18 months old, and given I had never seen the behaviours he now has BEFORE neutering, I think its fairly safe to say it was NOT learned behaviour!

I am well versed in the use of the English language, and purely because I choose to use a mildly rude word (with some censorship) has no bearing whatsoever on my education.

Where precisely IS your proof that neutering has no bad effects? Id be very interested to read it.

Em

I have no 'proof' at all, I was merely stating in response to Teri that I have in actual fact had some experience of it.

Do you really think that you lot battling it out here is going to make any difference to what people actually decide to do to their dog?  Everyone's got their own opinions.  Everyone can see that there are pro's and con's.  Just because YOUR dog didn't benefit from it - well, I'm sorry to say it, but mine did! :)

Sorry, my post was directed at Patty, not you. She is, of course, the one claiming that neutering has no bad side effects.

Em

Sorry Em!! :D 

>Everyone can see that there are pro's and con's.

Keeley, Patty said:

>What are the downsides of castration? I know of none.

Obviously she didn't know of the cons - until now. This is an Information Exchange, and that is exactly what we're doing - exchanging information.
:)

Ah, but JG, unfortunately Patty doesn't acknowledge our experience is relevant because we don't have 'an ology'!!! ;)
But the original poster can see that most of us are singing from the same hymn sheet :)

Sorry that you find it offensive that I don't take your word for it, it is nothing personal. I do find it is important that people are aware that the internet is a great thing, but to be careful of what information they are given and to check that that information is actually right.

As I said, if anyone does have this info then it would be useful for me to see. Please old posters, don't bother replying to this, as you clearly don't have this evidence.

Thanks,
Patty

The best 'evidence' is from the horse's mouth - after all, that's all that 'ologist's' papers are based on - the information they've been told by others. I often find personal experiences of far more value than supposed scientific studies, and I certainly take the supposed evidence from many 'behaviourists' with a large pinch of salt - after all, a person can do a 6-week correspondence course without ever actually meeting a dog, and call themselves a 'behaviourist'.

Thanks for all the information and views, I think we will persist in trying to teach him its not the thing to do for the moment, thats if we can catch him in the act.
Cheers Martin.

That's certainly the best and easiest first course of action, Martin.
:)

Martin,

Just be aware that punishment will stop him marking in front of you, but he will still mark when you are not looking. Using punishment can also have some other undesirable effects.

If you are going to punish, then my advice would be to use remote punishment (e.g. cans falling down), and not to link the punishment with yourself.

It'd be interesting to see how you get on.

All the best,
Patty

Brilliant Martin. :)

I have never stated there were no cons (please read carefully before making statements like that). I stated that there are definite PROVEN reasons why to castrate and that I didn't know of any proven disadvantages. Furthermore, by whole point here is that things need to be either proven or disproven. So, if someone says castration makes the coat duller, then I am not saying it doesn't, I am saying that this has not been proven and therefore one cannot make that statement.

I still am none the wiser about the cons. All I'm getting are personal (and sometimes rude) comments, which frankly I find useless and of no information whatsoever.

Em, I would love to point you to the research, but frankly with your attitude, it is not worth bothering. If you want to educate yourself and say intelligent remarks, then you can do so at your own time and expense.

This sort of attitude is the same as one got quite a few years ago about new training methods. Thankfully more and more people became educated on PROVEN training methods and now a lot  of people use reward-based training.

I'd imagine as people learn more, more research is done and the public become more educated then these silly remarks will eventually stop.

Just trying to make intelligent conversation here, but please carry on with flippant remarks and personal attacks if that's your thing. :-)

Cons:

Early neutering stunts the growth of or development of the sexual characteristics of male and female.  A male neutered young has an underdeveloped penis, especially if done very young, and the bitches vulva is immature.  Both can cause urinary tract problems.

All the individuals that I know that were neutered before puberty are also mentally immature compared to entire individuals of the same age, too many to be just individual differences in character.

Bone density is negatively affected by the lack of hormones (as it is in humans), and the Growth plates close later resulting in a taller but less dense skeletal structure.

Undercoats become fluffy and difficult to groom, and loose their weather resisting quality in most breeds to some extent, in short coated breeds patches of alopecia are quite common.  coats of all kinds can be prione to grow longer than normal.

The lack of adult hormones may rob an underconfident pup of it's proper adult confidence (a possible pro in an over confident individual).

Urinary incontinence primarily in females, and in large breeds in a high proportion of bitches.

Feminisation syndrome, where male dogs are mounted by other dogs, also part of the lack of confidence already mentioned, both causing fear aggression.

Altered metabolism that reduces the amount of food needed to maintain correct bodyweight and at the same time increasing the appetite.  This results in overweight dogs in the less strict owner.  My youngest spayed bitch has this to a marked degfree, wheras in her youth she was positively anorexic, and before spaying was not very food orientated at all.

I know dogs and bitches belonging to freinds and relatives that have had all of the forgoing problems (not all in same individual)

Patty, you are being told people's personal experiences.  This is an Information Exchange. Information doesn't have to be published by 'ologists' to be true. Are you calling them liars? If so, then what's the point of being on here? If you're not, then why not accept what they say?

Hi Martin.  My experience, for what it's worth as an ex veterinary nurse, kennel manager, professional groomer for 16 years and dog breeder for 20+ years, is that your dog is going through his 'Kevin' adolescent stage, where his hormones are racing through his body and influencing everything that he does.  Remember being an adolescent?? ;) 
In most cases dogs can be distracted from this sort of behaviour, and as he matures, there is a very good chance that it will cease.
Castration at this age will almost certainly change the texture of his coat - Blue is a Westie exhibitor, breeder and groomer and will, I'm sure confirm this - making it more difficult to hand strip, groom and keep clean.  Hormones are very important to the overall balance of the body, and should only be removed if medically required.

Just to add that IME castration and spaying does affect double coated breeds - I have owned entire and neutered animals and there is definitely a big coat difference (certainly, as i say, in double coated breeds :) ).

Lindsay
x

I have seen the same as Lindsay as regards coats, AND I do have a male dog whose confidence was totally ruined by being neutered -I've mentioned him before. I also vividly remember one time at dog club, we were doing heelwork, I had my Golden dog, and the dog in front of us was a Spriinger. My dog was going NUTS, and after a while I was just about to stop the person in fornt of me and tell them off good and proper for bringing an in season bitch to training -when I saw the dog was a castrated male. My dog was convinced it was a bitch in season.

Marianne

But, since personal experience now apparently counts for nothing, i guess forums such as champdogs will cease to exist.

Em

Naaaa Em.  Most posters can sort out the wheat from the chaff without an ology and value our experience! ;) 

Thanks for all the help once again from everyone, we will try to teach him its the wrong thing to do for now, thats if we can catch him in the act. I think the best thing about this forum is the fact that people do have different views, its nice to find somewhere these can be posted and then debated.
Cheers Martin

Remember, in a year or so his hormone levels will naturally fall as he matures, so with good training now you should have a lovely dog at the end of it.
:)

It may be an idea to either keep him on a le3ad with you at all times or crate him any time you can't watch him, then you can catch him in the act.

Talking of personal experience (just to balance some of the contributions and I am not saying that this is true of ALL dogs :D ) - both my dogs have been neutered - the dog at 18+months and the bitch at 15 months. Neither - as far as I am aware - has had any detrimental affects to their behaviour/coat/health. The bitch has a double coat. The dog was neutered nearly 6 years ago and the bitch 2 years ago. I am aware of the possible affects but have no regrets (in the particular circumstances) of having them neutered. If I have any more dogs, I will reconsider depending on the circumstances :)

JMHO :D

Daisy

Poor Martin, I bet he wished he hadn't asked now!!! ;) :D

LOL :D Maybe - on the other hand there's a lot of info and experience in these posts too

"Em, I would love to point you to the research, but frankly with your attitude, it is not worth bothering."

I asked didnt I?

And yes, you may find I and many others do not respond favourably to being told our personal experience, which between us is vast, is worthless.

So go ahead, please do point me towards your proof, I and I am sure many others on here would be delighted to read it.

Oh, one small hint.

When you are in a heated debate, resorting to picking out the other posters spelling or typing errors is a dead giveaway that you are losing ground.

Em

I haven't really much to add to this post - I think it has all been said.   I have more experience of cats (both male and female, neutered and entire) scenting and spraying - to the extent that I seemed to have a permanent "tide-mark" around the kitchen door - it seemed as if every feline coming in, felt it incumbent upon them to "clock in" and spray!

My experience has been that we have, with the exception of my late MIL's cross corgi/collie who had been neutered, always had entire dogs, males and females, generally having females neutered at around 5-7ish, and then to stop any worries about pyometra.    We have found a certain amount of scenting in both sexes - mostly when they have to take turns on walks, and it is quite funny to see 2nd dogs scenting exactly where 1st dogs have "dumped".

However, as this post has been getting rather - shall we say - heated ;) - it will start to pong - so - sweet smelling chill-out dust here - again Patty - don't let it get up your nose ;)

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Margot

Hi Em,

OK, here is one where there are loads of references within it:

Hart, B.L. (1991). Effects of neutering and spaying on the behaviour of dogs and cats: questions and answers about practical concerns. Journal of Veterinary Medical Association. 198(7):1204.

By the way, I never said anybody's opinion was worthless, all I am saying, and I am turning a bit blue with repetition here, is that one cannot make generalised comments without knowing for sure whether they are actual fact or not.

Making general comments is completely different to one's own experiences - I can say that my great dane loves getting into cars (ANY car, which is a bit worrying), but I cannot say that Great Danes as a breed love getting into cars - unless someone took 200 Great Danes and did a controlled experiment, in which case I could say that Great Danes showed a preference for getting into cars as opposed to not getting into cars - again one would need to look at the make of car, height, time of day, age of dog, etc, etc to become a true valid general statement. Only then would I recommend a Great Dane breed to someone that needed to have a dog that loved getting into cars. This is purely a hypothetical situation, so please don't comment on the feasibility of it.

Many dogs develop fear-aggression whether they are castrated or not. The odd story here and there cannot prove this. My posting was for the finding of facts. I didn't ask opinions, I am asking to see if anyone had proven evidence to the generalised remarks, not just personal stories.

I made a generalised remark and backed it up (see journal above), I was just asking for information. I am sorry that people have CHOSEN to read it as their opinion being of no value, etc, etc.

Cheers,
Patty

>My posting was for the finding of facts.

>If anyone does have the information about coat differences, then please let me know. As I mentioned, I am here to learn too (from proper sources).

Then why not believe what the groomers tell you? They're not liars ...

Terms of Service

** Please keep your language clean and decent. This includes personal inflammatory language as well as obscenities.

** This forum system is not a venue for personal or private vendettas. Keep your personal business as just that - personal. This forum is not a venue for personal disputes.

It appears that playground mentality is the order of the day. This forum manages very well without the use of unecessary expletives. There are hundred of forums on the internet that you may swear until your hearts content. I suggest that those of you whom can not debate without resorting to such measures, may be better off "debating" elsewhere. I have locked this thread until I get time to edit the nonsense out of it.