Hi everyone, I have a problem at the moment with my 10 month old westie which started about a month ago, he is still intact so i realise at this age his is leaving his scent, the problem is he seems to think he has to make his mark on anything new in the house, clothes on the line, visitors and anyone I stop to talk to whilst out on walks. Sometimes it can be amusing, yesterday I was sat in the garden catching a few rays when a large bird deposited a package a couple of feet from me, Charlie (the westie) trotted over sniffed it then cocked his leg peed on it then trotted back to his sunny spot and layed down. Most of the time it is a real pain though, are there any ways of stopping this behavior without resorting to surgery.
Cheers Martin.

Watchfullness, and showing your disaproval immieditely whilst in the act.

I have known quite a few terriers that still do it even when castrated, I think it is part to the little dog thing, as well as a male thing. 

They feel they ahve to prove themselves as good as the next guy, and it iges them security to have everything smell right to him.

Cleaning up the innapropriate ones with biological washing powder and then spraying with white spirit (test a small area first ;)) will help to stop him returning to the same spot over and over......

Hi Martin,

If you're not going to breed, then get him castrated. The benefits are huge, especially if your dog is already showing some of those undesirable traits that entire dogs have - there are loads of others, but that is another issue.

Cheers,
Patty

The downsides of castration can also be pretty huge.

And my castrated male, in times of stress, will scent mark in the house also.

Make him see it is not acceptable, distract him when he is abotu to do it somewhere in appropriate, reward when he does it somewhere appropriate.

By all means consider neutering, but its NOT a cure all for everything and in an underconfident dog it can cause reams of problems afterwards (and id suggest that a confident dog might not need to scent mark everything around him!).

Em

Hi Em,

What are the downsides of castration? I know of none. Also, it is an old wife's tale that castration will make insecure dogs less confident. Please correct me if I am wrong, but there is no evidence at all that this is the case. By the way, the whole coat-thing is also an old wife's tale - again I would like to see the evidence that this is the case, which there is none that I am aware of.

There is, however, a load of evidence showing the benefits of castration, both on behavioural and health aspects.

Marking is nothing to do with confidence, it is a dog's way to say ' I am here, this is me, this is my territory and come and get me girls!!' because the testosterone is talking (particularly in adolescent dogs, as is the case here). The danger is that this behaviour is initially hormone-driven, but will become a 'learnt' behaviour once the testosterone levels go down, leaving the owner with a dog who is not very pleasant to live with, a smelly house and a dog whom he cannot take anywhere due to this behaviour.

Cheers,
Patty

The downsides of castration? A castrated dog can become attractive to other dogs - which causes both him and his owner stress. There is evidence to suggest that castrated dogs are more likely to develop malignant prostate tumours (as opposed to the benign ones more likely in entire dogs). It's also not an old wives' tale about the negative psychological effect of castrating a fearful dog, I'm afraid. You may find this article interesting.
:)

Hi Jeangeanie,

Actually, the evidence is for exactly the opposite. An entire male will most definitely attract the attention of other males. Because he is entire and smells like a threat, then there is much more likelyhood of a fight. Also, many entire dogs get 'bullied' and attacked by other dogs, purely because they smell entire and are a potential threat to the other dog.

With regards to the website and it's quote of becoming more attractive immediately after neutering, the researched didn't signify if there was a 'significant' change. One would have to do the statistics to see if this was due to chance.  What is important to note is that after a year only 14 out of 98 were attractive to other males (which is most definitely not 'significant'). I don't know about you, but ALL dogs are attractive to other dogs after they have gone through some sort of operation, so even though 24 out of 98 were attracted, the study did not say WHY they were attracted - very often this is to the new and unusual smells of the aftermath of an operation.

The website you quote is a good one and gives good advice, I read it quickly, but on the whole looks good. It actually, does back up the reasons to castrate quite well. :-)

Cheers,
Patty

P.S. I do realise there are a lof of breeders in this website and most will be against castration, for obvious reasons. But my personal (and founded) opinion is that if you are not going to breed, then castrate. Leave breeding to the breeders that know what they are doing. Second reason, just go to a dog's home or a pound and see the results of not having a dog castrated.

>Castration is definitely not recommended as a cure for nervous or fear aggression.

>Some neutered male dogs become sexually interesting and are occasionally pestered by other males.  It is believed that after castration these dogs smell like a bitch.

Sometimes these dogs need lifelong replacement testosterone to enable them to live a normal life.

Where did you get that information from?

The highlighted bits are from the link I posted. The info about testosterone replacement is from a friend whose dog required that exact treatment because of the many physical problems that castration caused him.

Patty, you may also be interested to read this.

Hi JG,

Good link - more up to date than the first one and actually written by a vet ;)

regards, Teri

That's a highly biased document, without any founded research to back-up their points. These are exactly the sort of articles that the public should NOT be pointed to.

Tales of my "friend's dog.... or my auntie's,brother's dog...." are complete misinformation. If anybody wants to really know about the real effects of castration then read the first link by JeanJenie (which by the way, it is a straight cut and paste from the booklet 'The Behavioural Effects of Castration' and for lawful reasons should be acknowledged as so).

The reason this article is good is because it is written (originally) by qualified behaviourists that will not advise ANYTHING unless it was proven (scientifically).

Unless something is proven, then one cannot say whether or not it is true. So, if anybody out there has REAL evidence of coat differences in castrated and entire dogs, I would love to see it, so that I can too be informed and educated - so far, I haven't seen any.

My whole point is that we all have our views and that is great, but you have to be very careful when you advise things based on ideas  that you just don't know, nor have been proven. It has been proven (repeteadly) that castration helps in sexually dimorphic behaviours (i.e. those behaviours particular to that sex).

I think I will leave it at that and let the postings evolve :-)

The link within the article, Patty, it tells you the papers that back it up.

>So, if anybody out there has REAL evidence of coat differences in castrated and entire dogs,

As for that, why should the experiences of professional groomers be any less valid than a scientist?

Hi Jeangenie,

That's exactly the sort of information I was looking for, thanks. So, now I know of one disadvantage of castration; the higher incidence of prostatic adenocarcinoma in castrated males.

Now, for the next step is to see the number of these incidents against those of testicular cancer, anal tumours, retained testicles (not relevant for this post) and enlargement of the prostate gland and see how it compares.

Thanks
Patty

You'd best get googling then, Patty, because that's the only thing it appears you'll accept; though that article does state (if you read it all) that the incidence of testicular cancer is minimal compared to prostate cancer in castrated males.

There is nothing "proven" in what you have said Patty :rolleyes:  Behaviourists - "qualified" or not are certainly not scientists LOL.  And on a matter relating to a surgical procedure I think most people with a grain of savvy would prefer to look at the views of a vet rather than a behaviourist :P 

You only have to do a quick search on here or probably any other forum to find multitudes of posts regarding dogs which have developed both temperamental problems and coat problems following castration.

Personal experiences - many of them -  have proven to me that castration is often to the detriment of the dog and for several reasons - but if you would rather adopt a completely blinkered approach then so be it ;)  

Regards, Teri :)

Hi Teri,

My approach is far from blinkered. It is based on pure facts and not on personal stories about people's dogs. By the way, there is a difference between vets and behaviourists (qualified), such as there is a difference between a GP and a psychiatrist. Both are scientists too.

More and more vets are also learning and getting qualified in behaviour, which can only be for the welfare or dogs and owners.

Everything I mentioned is proven and there are plenty of papers out there - it is not my word or my own personal stories.

I am sorry if this subject angers people, but that also shows some underlying psychological reasons, I am sure :-)

>I am sorry if this subject angers people, but that also shows some underlying psychological reasons, I am sure

Would you care to expand on that Patty?

Hi Teri,

I can't, I am not a psychologist. It would just be a personal comment, which is of no value in these types of discussion.

Ahhhhhhh.  So you're a 'qualified behaviourist' are you Patty?

>By the way, there is a difference between vets and behaviourists (qualified), such as there is a difference between a GP and a psychiatrist. Both are scientists too.

Yes I know ;)  There is also a difference between a GP vet and specialist in the field of reproduction.  I suggest you contact Glasgow University Veterinary Hospital and speak to one of their specialist team about your "one way suits all" scenario with no evidence of castration being counter productive.

As for differences experienced in the coat, I fail to see how a behaviourist could establish that to any degree but professional groomers, breeders and those experienced in animal husbandry certainly have first hand knowledge and experience of same.

Regards, Teri :)   

>Everything I mentioned is proven

Not so. :(

>It is based on pure facts and not on personal stories about people's dogs.

The two are not mutually exclusive. ;)

Patty people that live with dogs are more able to tell you how they are affected than a few scientists that decide to do a study.

Also why would breeders be against castration per se?  Most good breeders would prefer that fewer people bred litters, that is the oens who have not done sufficient research or care into the process.

I own neuterd and entire bitches and I know for a fact that neutering does change them, and not always for the better.

I also have expereince of males of my own breeding that are entire and neutered at various ages.

Early neutering causes lack of gender differentiation in males especially and also gender confusion.  I personally know several males with feminisation syndrome, all were under confident pups neitered before puberty.

Dogs castrated after sexual maturity are often more mellow toward other males, but keep most of the male characteristics, including marking behaviour, though it may be somewhat lessened.

Having had males of freinds coem to stay I stopped taking entire males because of scent marking by house because of the smell of the girls.  I now also won't look any neuterd males as they did this too.

In many breeds the coat does change for the worse and does alter in msot breeds though not so noticeably.  In my own breed the coat becomes softer and less weather resistant (double coated spitz breed), this has been true of all 3 of my spayed bitches, and one had an exceptionally good textured coat when entire.

In some breeds especially Spaniels the coat change can actually be so dramatic that it poses a welfare issue to the dog as it becomes very difficult to look after.

Hi Patty,

"feminisation syndrome" is acknowledged among specialists in the reproductive field - no old wife's tale :( I dog walk with friends who have two castrated males, (one mixed breed one Westie) which are constantly harassed by entire males trying to mount them and sometimes more antsy bitches being snappy with them :(   Additionally, two family members had castrated males and my own males were "switched" onto them even though they would not have behaved similarly with bitches out of season.

>By the way, the whole coat-thing is also an old wife's tale

Definitely not true - in double coated breeds (even the shorter coats such as Rotts) and particularly in long coated breeds where masculine appearance is enhanced by a heavy mane, feathering & trousers, the coat changes entirely - I've seen this in countless breeds and not only does the mane become sparse and the guard hair soften, but the undercoat becomes woolly, almost felt like and is very difficult to manage - I'm sure some of the experienced dog groomers on here will be able to vouch for that.  I've certainly helped strip out and detangle these coats and they are not only hard work but in no time the coat is a mess again.

Incidentally the worst offenders for indoor "marking of territory" that I've known have been two castrated, nervous males.  One was seen by a very reputable behaviourist and it was determined that the dog was marking in the hope that no others would invade his "territory" as he was clearly far too insecure with other dogs and certainly not trying to attract them ;)  

Regards, Teri  :)

By the way, the whole coat-thing is also an old wife's tale

Definitely not true!  As a dog groomer my experience is that the vast majority of neutered male and female dogs have a change of coat quality.  Long haired dogs can become very difficult for the average owner to cope with, which is why I would only recommend neutering for medical reasons or if the owner couldn't guarantee that a dog wouldn't produce/father an unplanned litter.

Marking has nothing to do with confidence??

Excuse me but b*ll*cks, dear!.

IF marking has nothing to do with confidence, how come my uber confident male dog (neutered) does NOT mark in the house, yet should a strange dog visit, strange people visit, etc etc, puppy starts becoming more sexually mature (as is happening now), then why does my cowardy custard under confident, fear aggressive male (neutered) dog, start peeing up walls??

He is 100% housetrained, this is a dog would would BURST rather than pee in the house for any other reason.

Neutering has PLENTY of downsides, adn in fact to think complete removal of the testes in ANY species would NOT have unwanted side effects is simply ridiculous.

Neutering is alledged to prevent or stop humping, mating bitches, getting them in pup, wandering off, fighting with other dogs, scent marking in the house amongst other things.

Well my dog Rocky does ALL of the above except getting a bitch in pup. He humps (at times of frustration), he will mate and tie with a willing bitch, he will wander in search of that willing bitch, he will fight with other dogs, and as i mentioned he will scent mark in the house.

I get VERY angry when people suggest that neutering has no bad side effects and brand it a cure all for problems such as the above. I took that advice and Rocky is the result of not only that advice, but NOT being told that side effects existed. When you arent expecting a side effect, its damn hard to deal with the results!

Previous to being neutered, Rocky was your average cocky pup, friendly with everyone, good dog to dog communication skills, his only problem was wandering off after a bitch in heat.

The 'coat thing' is not an old wives tale either, neutered dogs and spayed bitches can indeed develop a much fluffier, softer coat, and also a much longer one. Its hardly a coincidence that the spayed deerhound bitch i know resembles a yeti, whilst unspayed bitches of the same breed have a breed standard coat. Ditto for spayed cocker spaniels, setters, etc etc.

Territory marking can indeed say to bitches 'i am here come and get me girls'... on the other hand i think there are more messages in it than that, or is my scent marking (spayed!) BITCH gay?? No testosterone in her!

Scent marking says 'this is MINE, keep out' as well as a message to bitches.

Funnily enough, whilst i agree hormone driven behaviours can become learnt ones, rocky NEVER ONCE scent marked in the house before he was neutered. And we had strange people, strange dogs etc in the house occasionally.

Still, never mind, ill tell him its an old wives tale and perhaps that will cure all his problems, because neutering flipping well caused them!

Em

Nice language Em - necessary do you think?

When you consider the subject, keeley, it's spot on! :D :D

LOL!

Quite relevant to the topic in hand i thought!

And sorry, but yes im angry and i did use asterixs!

Em

You did but it's still pretty obvious!  I hate the word, it's disgusting.  I think b*llsh*t might have been nicer! :)

Lighten up Keeley - of all the things to pick up on from an informative and well written post .......

Personally I don't think your substitute word goes down too well with some other people - can't ever recall anyone thinking it was "nice" - except maybe gardeners .... :P

Well I'm sorry I take offence to language Teri - you're obviously well used to it :)

Keeley, you felt the need to proffer an alternative profanity similarly "coded" with asterisks.  One which hardly suggests being offended by "language"

>you're obviously well used to it

However I take exception to your personal and uncalled for remark and would remind you of the TOS agreed to by users of the forum.

Thank you very much.  Will bear it in mind in future.  However, it wasn't a personal remark as such, just merely an observation.  I'm simply thinking about the fact that some children read this forum, and yes, you're right, I perhaps shouldn't have posted my 'alternative' word, my mistake :)

>However, it wasn't a personal remark as such, just merely an observation.

Based on?

Oh for goodness sake, can't you drop it Teri?  My first reply about swearing wasn't even directed at you - why did you feel the need to butt in? :rolleyes: I try to back off nicely, but you continue with the silly petty argument.

And to answer your  question, the observation was based on the fact that you didn't take offence to the original swear word that was written by Em, with or without asteriks - happy now?! :)

>why did you feel the need to butt in?

Your contribution to this thread was to add that you disliked the use of a word In the absence of any personal experience, advice or even opinion on the subject matter I would say that could be described as "butting in" - although this being an open forum there is quite rightly no rule against it.

>I try to back off nicely, but you continue with the silly petty argument.

Making or inferring a personal slight is hardly backing off nicely - it would have been better not to have been made but having done so an apology would have been more appropriate.  Teri 

>Your contribution to this thread was to add that you disliked the use of a word  In the absence of any personal experience, advice or even opinion on the subject matter I would say that could be described as "butting in" - although this being an open forum there is quite rightly no rule against it.

And how do you know that I've got no personal experience on the matter?  As it is, Toby was castrated in April, and I think it's worked wonders for him.  He no longer marks, and no longer mounts the bed. 

You 'butted in' to my response to Em's comments, directly at Em, no-one else.  But like you say, you're free to do so if you need the need.

>Making or inferring a personal slight is hardly backing off nicely - it would have been better not to have been made but having done so an apology would have been more appropriate

You 'told me off' for my so-called personal remark earlier, asking me to read the TOS, and I simply thanked you for that.  How's that 'not backing off'? 

Again, i will say, if children read this forum and im sure some do -- if they are literate enough to substitute the correct vowels for the asterix's, then i suggest they are old enough to handle reading such an obviously DEEPLY offensive word.

If they are not competant enough, then a/they will not be reading a topic such as this, and quite frankly if they cannot handle reading that word or similar others, they should not be permitted access to the internet!

Em

Sure Em, ok, you continue swearing.  Good luck to you.  It's a shame you couldn't get your point across without using such language though. :)

But you are objecting to the use of one foul word over another. I fail to see the point in that!

Em

I did actually state earlier that I shouldn't have used a different word to the one you used. It was my mistake :)

Hi Em,

The spelling is competEnt :-)

Oh, thankyou Patty.

So its the same in INcompetent?

Em

You got it!

Nice language Em and very educated.

Your PERSONAL story is very interesting. We don't know your case, but you would have been better to informed yourself properly before castrating. As mentioned before, hormone-driven behaviours will become learnt and castration will not help those behaviours after a certain period of time. It all depends how old your dog was when he was castrated.

It is exactly these types of posts that give no real information whatsoever.

If anyone does have the information about coat differences, then please let me know. As I mentioned, I am here to learn too (from proper sources).

Cheers,
Patty

>you would have been better to informed yourself properly before castrating.

Which is what we're doing here - preventing misinformation about castration being passed on.

>If anyone does have the information about coat differences, then please let me know. As I mentioned, I am here to learn too (from proper sources).

Then professional groomers would be the people to ask. They are the specialists in dog coats.