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Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / Ovulation Test
- By Bassetlover [gb] Date 25.08.05 13:53 UTC
Hi All,

Has anyone ever had a Ovulation test done at the vets and at what Day did you do it? What inforamtion did they give you when you had it done, did they make you wait for the results?
Taking our 4 yr old to have a test tommorow, as our stud, doesn't seem interested and now I think it is day 12. Have tried her from day 10.
Can anyone help?

CJ
- By Chocaholic [gb] Date 25.08.05 13:57 UTC
I had it done last year. I think you need to get it done much earlier, ie; day 6-7 onwards as you need to be able to see a negative before a positive result if that makes sense. I waited about an hour for the results (had 5 tests).
- By Bassetlover [gb] Date 25.08.05 14:00 UTC
Well the last owner of our basset reckons she is a late Mater, he reckons she took on day 18. Would this be the case everytime or does it vary?
Thanks for your help.

CJ
- By Blue Date 25.08.05 14:15 UTC
Do a search in here for premate there are lots of threads on it. I recommend it myself.
- By Bassetlover [gb] Date 25.08.05 14:24 UTC
Hi

Ok thanks Blue, will do a search on Premate. But do you mean on the internet itself or on CD?

Thanks

CJ
- By Blue Date 25.08.05 14:30 UTC
on here :-)
- By kelly mccoy [us] Date 25.08.05 16:07 UTC
serum progesterone testing is much better than premate tests......Progesterone Testing - A Successful Breeder's Best Friend by Brian E. Greenfield, D.V.M.
Published in the LRC 2001 Yearbook
Do you wake up in a cold sweat fearing you have missed a breed­ing date? Are you feeling stressed as your bitch's due date approaches? Worried that you are going to waste the last vial of frozen semen from your champion stud?

A successful breeding program does not have to consist of one panic-laden situation to the next, but all too often this occurs. As a veterinarian working in a practice that sees over 900 dogs for artificial insemination and performs over 250 cesarean sections annually, I have learned to rely on and have confidence in the value of accurate and timely progesterone testing in the bitch. Although it seems that some people thrive under stressful conditions, replacing panic with infor­mative scientific data invariably results in larger, healthier litters and happier owners. In today's era of co-ownership of valuable stud dogs and breeding bitches, it is not uncommon to have four or six differing opinions on the timing of a breeding. Indeed there are a lot of options. One breeding or two? Should it be a natural, vaginal, transcervical, or surgical breeding? The questions mount and the stress can build, but if you are armed with a basic working knowledge of the bitch's repro­ductive system and accurate progesterone tests, you can make good decisions. The progesterone test is your best friend.

First, let's review the basics. Prior to coming in season (estrus), serum progesterone levels in the bitch are low, less than 2ng (ng=nanograms). As the cycle continues, progesterone levels slowly climb to a level of 5ng, upon which ovulation occurs. The ovulation date can be as early as day 7 and as late as day 27 of the estrous cycle, emphasizing the importance of the blood test. Once a bitch hits 5ng and ovulates, subsequent serum progesterone levels can vary greatly. For example, at three days post ovulation we routinely see progester­ones that may range from as low as lOng to as high as 60ng, depending on the bitch. For ovulation purposes we are only interested in the day she exceeds 5ng. I commonly get the question, "Doc, we only ran one progesterone test on my bitch and it was 15ng, when did she ovulate?" The answer is impossible to know based on one test. I have seen bitches at 15ng one day after ovulation as well as 5, 10, 20, or 40 days after ovulation. You must have one test below 5ng and one above 5ng to determine ovulation day. For most bitches we start testing 6 days after the onset of vulvar swelling and bleeding, and we test every 1-3 days until ovulation, depending on the situation. After ovulation, serum progesterone levels will remain elevated, regardless of whether or not the bitch is pregnant, for approximately two months, at which point they return to near Ong. It is important to note that vaginal bleeding, swelling, "flagging," and receptivity to males is predominantly a re­sponse to estrogens in the bitch's bloodstream, and not a reliable indi­cator of progesterone and consequently ovulation. She mayor may not be receptive at the proper time. The use of physical indicators alone for breeding may not be a chance worth taking, especially with valu­able semen.

So what does knowing the ovulation day do for us? It tells us when the eggs will be fertile, which is important with all breedings, but especially so with fresh chilled extended semen and with frozen semen. Once ovulated, a bitch's eggs take approximately 48 hours to become fertile. They will then remain fertile for approximately 48 hours. The idea is to maximize contact time between viable semen and fertile eggs. This requires a brief discussion on semen longevity. Fresh se­men can remain fertile in the bitch's uterus for 3-5 days and in some cases even longer, depending on quality. Fresh chilled semen, because of energy lost in the cooling and subsequent warming process, may live only 24-48 hours in the uterus. Frozen semen, due to the stress of the freezing process and energy lost, may live only 12-24 hours in the uterus. Clearly, the shorter the sperm's life span, the more paramount it becomes to know when it should be inseminated to allow for maxi­mum contact time with fertile eggs. In the case of fresh semen, there is more flexibility for two reasons. First, there is usually not a limited quantity, and second, it lives a long time. We routinely recommend breeding days 1 and 3 or days 2 and 4 post ovulation with fresh semen, though one breeding is usually sufficient. With fresh chilled extended semen, because of a 24-48 hour life span, we recommend breeding 2 days after ovulation. As we discussed earlier, the bitch's eggs are just becoming fertile at this point, so we should have 1-2 days of good con­tact time. In the case of frozen semen, we recommend waiting three days after ovulation to do the breeding. This may make our clients nervous that we are waiting too long. However, it ensures that all the eggs are fertile when we put semen into the uterus that may live only 12 hours. We do not have the luxury of waiting around for eggs to become fertile. We have found the highest levels of success with fro­zen semen following surgical insemination and recommend it exclu­sively. Our levels of success using the above timing recommendations have been excellent; however, the manner in which a bitch is bred natural, vaginal insemination, transcervical insemination with an en­doscope, or surgical insemination-must be carefully considered de­pending on factors such as reproductive history, age, physical charac­teristics, and semen quality.

Having an accurate ovulation date at the beginning of a pregnancy is also very important at the end of a pregnancy. A bitch's due date is 63 days from ovulation, regardless of breeding days. This is extremely valuable for planned c-sections, due to such factors as breed confor­mation, litter size, prior medical history, or complications arising dur­ing the pregnancy. It is also very helpful when whelping. Knowing an exact due date not only helps breeders prepare for the arrival of a litter, but, often more importantly, it can alert us to a premature or overdue labor, allowing for prompt medical intervention if indicated.

Progesterone monitoring can also be important during gestation. Some bitches have a problem maintaining adequate levels of progest­erone during a pregnancy, usually resulting in resorbed or aborted fe­tuses. Monitoring progesterone levels is critical in bitches with such histories, as supplementation of progesterone at the proper times could mean the difference between live or dead puppies.

Often we are confronted with owners who have difficulty "catch­ing" a bitch's heat cycle. This is usually due to minimal outward physi­cal signs such as vulvar swelling and bleeding. We recall that proges­terone levels stay elevated for approximately two months after ovula­tion in all bitches, whether pregnant or not. Obtaining an elevated progesterone level in such an animal at the very least indicates she was in season in the last two months, often helping a breeder know ap­proximately when to expect the next cycle. Conversely, a low proges­terone level, less than 2.5ng, means there have been no eggs ovulated in the past two months. This may alert a breeder to an upcoming cycle, or, if the level remains chronically low, the veterinarian may be alerted to begin a thorough medical workup.

The usefulness of accurate and timely progesterone testing should not be underestimated. It is a valuable tool and in some cases of criti­cal importance in helping a veterinarian and breeder choose the proper course of action. Proper use and interpretation of these tests will re­sult in not only more pregnancies, but larger, healthier litters, fewer complications with your bitch, insight into potential problems, and, as I have experienced, fewer panicked telephone calls at three 0' clock in the morning.

Dr. Greenfield is an associate in the reproduction practice headed by Rob­ert Hutchinson, DvM.; he can be contacted at the Animal Clinc Northview, 34910 Center Ridge Rd., North Ridegville, OH 44039, (440) 327-8282

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- By Brainless [gb] Date 25.08.05 17:45 UTC
Yes this si so but it is dependent on quick turn around time.  I ahve here a bitch that has been tr5eid twice before with one male, and has come to my freinds male.  I asked that the owner 1.) have the bitch checked for a physical obstruction/problem preventing full penetration, and 2.) have an ovulation test. 

she had a blood sample taken on Thursday (day 7 of ehr season) on ringing her4 on Saturday to see what the result was she told me it wouldn't be back until Monday!  I told her that she should have had a second test Saturday if Thursdays had ben negative,a dn another on Monday if Saturdays was a no. 

On Monday she rang to tell me the Thursday test was negative and the vet was suggesting a second for Tuesday!  Now the bitch could well ahve ovulated any time between Friday and Tuesday and with the result of this proposed test not due back til Today what woudl this have achieved likely as not the bitch could have gone over or still we woudl not have known when ovulation occured.

So she came to me on Tuesday day 12, where the dog was interested enough to attempt mating, but the bitch pulled away after brief penetraion of 3 Occasions.  Yesterday she was all over him, but he has not been itnerested, adn today on day 14 he has attempted to mate her once with same result as Tuesday.  The bitches Vulva feels very hard and not pliable as a bitch that is ready would, so either dhe is not ready or there is a physical problem with her.

To my annoyance the Vet did not do an internal exam, grrr!!! 

The most popular mating day for bitches in my breed appears to be day 15, so lets hope we have luck tomorrow.
- By Chocaholic [gb] Date 25.08.05 20:57 UTC
I'm pretty sure my bitch took from the day 15 to ;-)
- By beverley [gb] Date 25.08.05 21:23 UTC
I recently had premates done with both of my cavaliers but had been previously warned by other breeders that the result can depend on the accuracy and care of the person doing the test! In my veterinary practice it is the head nurse who does these tests and for both dogs the tests were a success. I started testing on the 8th day and tested every other day until ovulation was predicted as imminent. Imminent here can mean ovulation will probably take place within the next 24 hours. As bitches do not release mature eggs at ovulation, it then takes another 2-3 days for the eggs to be ripe for fertilisation. Therefore if ovulation was imminent on day 12, the best day for mating for me was day 16 and we were successful.
- By Blue Date 25.08.05 22:33 UTC
Yip Beverley and I think in for a penny in for a pound ;-) if you retest again it goes  to white so you know that the ovuation should have taken place as you thought.
- By Blue Date 25.08.05 22:30 UTC

>serum progesterone testing is much better than premate tests.<


This is in your opinion remember, or this author.;-)     Premate testing is the most commonly and successfully test used now.

I have had 100% success with premate tests and never missed a bitch using them. I also do a bit of cytology slides also for interest.

It is really NOT down to who is doing the test but more so the person owning the bitch and arranging the tests. If the premates are done when they should be and as per the manufactuers guidance the work very very successfully and are so easy to do with simple instructions. 

The times the results are not as you want is when YOU the dog owner would do it wrong for example.

Example of doing the tests WRONG:

1) Going on day 10 with a bright blue reading ( this means retest in 2 days not ready)

2) Retest in 2 days and it is now light  blue so you know ovulation is near ( still to retest in 2 days to make sure ovulation has occured)

3) You decide to save £27 and not retest mate the bitch and low and behold the bitch has no puppies.

So what do we do "Blame the test.." You shouldn't because had you did the test on the 3rd time and it still showed the very very light blue then ovulation would have taken longer than expected . The bitch should have been mated later again. :-) this is probably why she missed.

Hope this makes sense.
- By Chocaholic [gb] Date 25.08.05 23:19 UTC
I had 5 premate tests carried out on my bitch last year. The 1st one was day 11 as it was a bank holiday weekend. On day 11 we got bright blue, so we carried out the tests on day 13, 15 & 17. On day 17 the colour was just starting to change and wasn't quite clear. I was advised to retest again on day 19, result: the test was clear meaning she had ovulated. Had a 600 mile round trip to the stud dog and was ther within less than 18 hours of the day 19 test (day 20). Got a mating, bitch wasn't happy, 45 minute tie. Result: no puppies :-(
This time I decided for genuine reasons to go back to my breeder and use one of her dogs. My bitch got the CHV and took from a day 15 mating.

I think the tests do work but in my case, 2 of the tests were carried out by a vet, the others by 2 different people. I am not sure if this was why it didn't work or for some other reason, I suppose I'll never know ;-)
- By Blue Date 26.08.05 06:45 UTC
With your example I would have mated on day 17 , I mate when the change happens IF the bitch is happy ( they have always been) I do this because the change means it is rising so if you mate then and the ovulate with 24-48 hours of this you should if the bitch is having a normal season catch them.

I am by no means a very experienced breeder having not had that many litters but I have used it faithfully an never missed. I think they are very simple to follow, the colour charge is easy to compare and find it hard to get the readings confused.

The nurse and vet carries them out but I always have a look at the result  myself :-)

I used to pay £15  4 years ago but they are now £27.50 .    Using the cytology smears for me I can help save on the first test because you can tell when the cell change starts. I generally need 2 premate tests BUT if the readings were not as planned I would continue till the change happened.

PS the other thing we have to remember that some bitches may just not take on that particular season regardless what you do just like humans.  touch wood the tests have been trumph for me. :-)
- By Chocaholic [gb] Date 26.08.05 08:09 UTC
Your probably right ;-) but they advised me to wait and get another test done, which I did. Anyway, all water under the bridge now :-)
- By Brainless [gb] Date 26.08.05 15:16 UTC
In this case though the bitch was actually fertile day 21 to 23 aproximately, so on day 20 it was still a little early for her.  Of coures she may have missed for another reason.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 26.08.05 04:42 UTC
Because you get the result the smae day they are more use than the more acurate serum tests, unless your vet can get the results back quickly and know how to interpret them then the premate kits are the best option, as nay fool can understand them.

I used them with my bitch based on previous stud and bitch behaviour I tested on day 10 with an imminnet result, day 11 imminnet, day 12 positive.  Tried mating her from day 13, dog really keen from day 14 but bitch difficult, but succeeded on day 16 (going over by then) with a fertile result, though small littter for the breed.

Next time tried again, bitch wouldn't stand (mount the dog, but not allow him to mate her), but tested appeared to ovulate the same time. 

Next time didn't bother as from the 3 occasions she had been tried the tests and studs behaviour indicated she ovulated the same time each season.

This time got her mated day 15 and 16, with a better litter size.  The main problem is that msot vets in the UK aren't called upon to do much testing, and many don't keep the testing kits in stock as after opening the pack has to be used up quite quickly and there are 10 tests in each, and with small numbers of clients using them means the cost of these has to be borne by the oen person, making it for some prohibitevly expensice (costs more than two trips to the stud in petrol).

It is differnet in teh USA where bitches may be shipped interstae for mating, or a lot of AI breeding is done (not allowed under normal circumstances in UK).
- By kelly mccoy [us] Date 26.08.05 14:50 UTC
you will not find a reproductive vet in this country that uses premate..i get progesterone results same day from Dr Hutch or i send them from here it is by 10 am the next day ,,the result is always  numerical not positive or negitive..i think we have better resources here due to the widespread use of AI fresh and frozen..and the number of vets who are certified in reproduction
- By kelly mccoy [us] Date 26.08.05 15:12 UTC
Question: Reliability of progesterone testing? I have seen the progesterone testing of a bitch to determine ideal breeding times, to be off by as much as three days.....according to my stud dog...and the successful breeding LATER than the test suggested. Care to comment on this???

DrHutch:
It is best if one can obtain progesterone numbers, which should not be a problem in this day and age. Progesterone tests are not species specific, so can be run in human labs, dog labs, horse labs. The biggest mistake people make in running progesterone tests is they stop before the progesterone goes above five nanograms. The day the progesterone goes above five nanograms is the day of ovulation. The whole world revolves around five nanograms. T The fact that we could determine just the initial rise (rise to 2-3 nanograms of progesterone) is a total fallacy. You must confirm ovulation. I start testing around day 6 of the cycle. You need to run your progesterone every 2-3 days.

19. Question: What is the most reliable in house test?

DrHutch:
At this point, I recommend you find an outside lab to give you a number, as opposed to running in house tests; they are not as accurate.

20. Question: Doesn't the time lag cause a problem?

DrHutch:
You should be able to get the results back in 24 hours max. If there IS a time lag problem, check with a human hospital, or if nothing else, overnight them to me! I can have them that same afternoon!

21. Question: What about the LH surge?

DrHutch:
Because the LH test has to be run every day, and LH is species specific, and in most cases even running the LH we still put most faith in the progesterone tests, I do not run the LH except in very, very specific cases. And the bitches appreciate not being BLED every day for 14 days in a row.... the urine LH is not successful.
- By Chocaholic [gb] Date 26.08.05 18:33 UTC
My Vet does it in house. A more senior vet at the practice uses it on his goldies, I think thats why they carry it in stock. I didn't have to ask for it to be specially ordered in.
Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / Ovulation Test

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