If you heard that the KC had decided to allow people to register mongrels that vaguely represented your breed, with the KC, and show them as your breed, breed from them etc....would you be horrified? Well this has happened this week, despite both breed clubs being against the idea.....how can this happen?

On another point of view to this though we have a dog of our breed in this country that has clear eyes, a good hipscore but unfortunately wasn't registered in her country of origin.  I would love for her to be registered over here as she's a great example of our breed with a wonderful tempermant.  But I must admit that I wrote to the KC saying that if they brought this in that I hoped that they would listen to the breed clubs, though from what you are saying they haven't.  I think that they should no matter what and I think that the breed clubs should look at the dogs being considered and then someone in the breed from the country of origin should also be consulted.

Can I ask what breed?

What breed are you talking about?
Neeva

That's a very emotive way of interpreting the move! There's a wide difference between a mongrel and a good representative but unregistered member of a breed. One of the best examples of my breed that I've ever seen was unregistered. Used sensibly, it could be the saving of some vulnerable breeds.

Believe me Mongrel is the correct term.  We are talking hounds, that when visited by two representatives of the breed clubs, bore no resemblance to the breed (their words) and although there is a pure bred sire 2 generations back, they have been cross breeds  in bitch line for at least 5 generations.

Hi Sam

It is heartbreaking I know.  There is a debate going on in my breed about introducing unregistered stock.  I don't know what to think.

Why would they do that, is it a breed with very low registrations? Even so, it's appalling, makes you wonder why we bother. Once again the breed clubs advice is ignored by the 'all-knowing' KC.

yes we do have low registrations but they have never really been any higher in the past 20 years (bloodhounds) and as a breed we do not WANT any more registrations! There just arent enough suitable owners as it is. its been taken over the heads of both clubs and we are now officially integrated with mongrels :( :( I think WW3 is about to break out within our breed!

Actually the KC have had a regulation to register unregistered stock for a long time. However, when I wanted to register an unregistered dog I was told that I would have to get the dog examined by members of the relevant breed club to get their opinion BEFORE they would consider accepting it. I think that is a good thing otherwise anyone could register anything. They do, however, mark the papers to state that the dog is of unknown parentage.

Dapple

What breeds are you talking about?

can u post pics of these "mongrels" so we can see for ourselves whether they are good examples of their breed instead of taking one persons word for it?

Are you a Bloodhound CC awarding judge then BB? it's not one person, it's both breed clubs, who probably know what they are talking about.

no im not a judge, but i do have 2 eyes and a mind of my own and id like to see some pics of these dogs before I pass comment so does someone want to put them up or put up a link to them (Im not the only person who has asked for more info)

Admin edit: terms of service. I suggest you read them again

I am certainly not a bloodhound judge, are you?  I do, however, value the opinion of someone who is! ;)

With the almost blanket spread of SHM in cavaliers I think the breeders will have to forego type & use unregistered dogs to open the gene pool up to minimize SHM inheritance. Sadly the breeders are at least partly to blame for doing so much close inbreeding & hiding their heads in the sand over the problems this has caused

id like to see a picture to, or at least a link to the story, as im interested

I agree.  It seems quite silly to put up a thread about something being so vague as to what you are talking about.  If it's that specific that general comment isn't welcomed, perhaps it should have been mentioned in the initial thread that you were really just posting a rhetorical question and didn't really want any feedback.

ok so can we have pictures please? or a link to pictures?
I am interested in this subject as it has been said that this may be done with bulldogs to improve health, the register may be open to some bulldog crossbreeds at some point in the future, so Im interested to see just how far away from the breed standard these unregistered dogs being added actually are

I'm just guessing, but would this be about introducing dumfriesshire foxhounds into the KC reg bloodhound?

I was told that if the KC accepted crossbreeds they had to be a cross with the actual breed, and not another pure breed of dog. For example with bulldogs, a crossbred Kc bulldog might possibly be accepted, but a purebred dog from another breed wouldnt be allowed. does anyone know more about this subject?

I posted about this months ago, I do not really see this as a bad thing, JMO. 
Breed clubs have been ruining several breeds for many years with over exaggerated breed standards I am sorry but I can only see this as a positive to improve the health of some breeds.

Havoc. No it has nothing to do with Dumfrieshirees....in fact this has already been done a few years back when the breed numbers were dreadfully low, post war etc. I had onre of the few non outcross lines left at one point but in the end had to breed to a hound with the outcross in its ancestry.

BB, Can i ask why it is you keep going on about the bulldogs health??

Well I have read this thread from Top to bottom I cannot see anywhere in this thread where the health of Bulldogs has been mentioned by BB.....Perhaps you are paranoid? Infact even people like me who prefer the alternative strains are getting fed up of the same old arguments from forum to forum, why even mention this when no one else has on this thread?  Live and let live :)

And perhaps you are interfering, i wasn't asking you, but i seem to notice that you have to reply to every post that involve the 'alternative strains' of bulldog. I have seen a few posts of BB's that continually go on about the otb having less health problems. Of course no one else hasn't mentioned it on this thread as there is probably no one on this thread that owns a bulldog, therefore are not bothered about BB's continuous comments on the bulldog and rightly so. However if it were someone keep putting down the health of any other breed that they own then they probably would, and quite rightly so. If you and BB prefer the 'alternative strains' good luck to you but don't put down the 'proper strain' Also if you are getting fed up of the same old argument Why get involved :-)

I thought this thread was about bloodhounds!

Sorry to have took it off the subject:-)

And there was I thinking this was an open forum, I leave Bulldog threads well alone now as I am fed up of the same old arguments where in this thread have I "Put down the kc Bulldog"? I prefer the alternative strain of Bulldog never on this forum have I mentioned owning one :)  I like them and do admire them and thats my right as a doglover it would be a VERY boring world if we all liked the same things!!!  I am not really bothered about BB`s comments either I just think its unfair that you asked WHY on this thread, why not take it up within a pm? Instead of asking the question openly on the forum?  I thought that was the whole point of a pm :)

Is that what others do then MM pm???? If so why the need for a forum :-s

continuous comments melissa?
I think youll find I only made one comment about health, and then the one I made a second or two ago in reply to the person who asked why I mentioned health.
Health IS a serious issue in bulldogs, and yes Im very passionate about the breed I like and the reason I mentioned bulldogs in regard to this thread is because there was talk recently of the KC taking steps to improve the breed by allowing crossbreeding and unregistered stock, which is actually on topic as far as the threads concerned. :-)

because its a very well known fact that KC bulldogs can suffer from a lot of birthing and mating problems as well as breathing difficulties, cherry eye, collapsing after exercise and during heat, the list goes on.
Like Mollmoo I prefer the alternative type bulldog which has slightly longer legs making it better able to carry its own weight, and a longer nose, enabling it to breathe better.
Pretty self explanatory really :-)

Topsy....I am not being vague. I told you what had happened & the breed too. What is vague about that? It was not a rhetorical question and at no point have I said I do not want feedback so where you got that idea from I do not know!!!

Clutha....the story is not "out" yet but may well be in tomorows DW!

There are new guidelines on the Cavalier club website for breeding to minimise SM. As you say, the unaffected dogs are so few! But the basic advice is don't ignore an older dog with a mild deformation and no symptoms, if his heart / eyes are fine. My boy is type D, malformation with no symptoms, so I will still be able to breed him to my bitch if she is type A or B, unaffected or very mild malformation. (and if she stops growing before she gets as large as a Springer!!!!!!!!)

Moonmaiden....this particular case has nothing to do with health.

But it a breed with a restricted gene pool isn't it ?

Must admit the best Bloodhounds I have ever seen belonged to one of the clean boot hunts

moonmaiden......so what if its a restricted gene pool....so are dozens of other breeds but no one suggests bringing in cross breeds!!! What possible advantage will it be other than plain weedy hounds that are not representative of their breed? Apart from one clean boot pack, no others I know of have pure bred bloodhounds....they are x-breeds. To say they are the best one you have seen is ridiculous....they might be the ones(type) you like best but they are not the best bloodhounds. records show that we are pretty much the longest recorded breed in britain...even britains oldest breed. To see it about to be ruined is heart breaking for those of us who consider ourselve guardians of this special, unique & noble hound. :( I only hope the emergency talks with the KC can be a last minute saviour.

Actually the pack I saw WERE  pure bred (so the Bloodhound CC judge with me told me & she should know I think)& they were beautiful dogs not a weedy one amoungst them, in gleaming condition & beautiful movers. Capable of doing the job they have beem bred to do  I would doubt that the owners would want to dilute their bloodlines with non working Bloodhounds

How can you know what the dogs were that I saw ? Unless you were present at the time, you cannot say that they dogs I saw were mongrels

I would be interessted to know which pack. Like I said...only one I know of has a mix of part breds & pures.....They show and trial the pures.....they rarely hunt the pures in the pack though because they cannot keep up with the x bred ones. This is no detriment to the pures I hasten to add....its simply that the pack (x-bred ones) need to be really fast to give the riders a fast hunt. This, however, is NOT a desired characteristic of a pure bloodhound, who is meant to be hunted on foot. You see......already there are differences :(.  I think people who do not know or understand the breed are thinking they need to be fast hounds to hunt as a pack etc....however that IS NOT THE FUNcTION OF THE BREED!
As for the CC awarding judge........having seen some of the judging this year from some allrounders then that wouldnt surprise me atall :)  :)

The judge isn't an all rounder & has been in the breed longer than I have been alive which is a long time ;)

I haven't a clue to which pack, but the judge knew as one had won at a show as one of the pack we saw had won at a recent Ch show

Bulldogbash......publication of photos would require a model release, which is not available at present.

ok no problems, would have been interesting to see the dogs thats all.

I thought that this was something th KC were thinking of doing for all breeds, but didn't realise that they'd put it into practice yet!  Let's put it this way I didn't receive a reply from them from my letter and my breed is a numerically small one.

Oh well we will just have to see.  My letter was supporting a dog that was everything a dog of our breed should be and as far as I know it's not being accepted, so how can they accept a dog that's nothing like it's breed but one that even a breed specialist from it's own country has recommended and they won't accept it?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision surely no breeders are being forced to use these dogs in their breeding programme, if their introduction will ruin the breed then it will be ruined by breeders not the KC - surely?

Took the words out of my mouth Bazb!

Im still not sure what breed you are talking about but presume it is bloodhounds?  Would it not be better to introduce new blood ie purebred dogs from outside the UK?  I know it takes money to import dogs but if that is what it takes.
Neeva

I know the KC can make some very strange and devstating decisions occasionally.

There has over the years been a lot of problems with the classification of Belgian Shepherds (the 4 variety breed - Terv, Groenendael, Malinois and Laekenois) and at one stage the KC decided to amalgamate the varieties with far reaching consequences, such as the decline in for instance, Groenendael litters. I believe although am not certain that the genetic expert Malcolm Willis was involved in this. I am no expert on what happened, I don't show nor breed, but to the people involved in the breed, the KC decision was terrible and was of course reversed eventually.

Lindsay
X

Neeva....not too much pont as the USA ones are nothing like ours (small & plain :() and the rest have all originated from UK stock anyway (well mostly) If you go back a few generations they pretty all much go back to the same few that were exported from here.

BAzb, yes of course :)   However there are unfortunately a few characters who do not breed for the better of the breed :( and its these we are worried about.

Hello there,
Just had this thread pointed out to me by a friend, hope you don't mind but I have a couple of questions.
As I understand it the 2 breed club people looked at the hounds from a particular hunt and were, shall we say, less than impressed. Fair enough, but are there any packs out there that have bloodlines you could think of using? If there are what affect (if any) do you think it would have on the breed, good or bad?
Thanks,
j