I hate clicker training and see it as totally pointless. I have never used it and never wanted to use it ether. However at puppy training classes they are useing clicker, so I feel forced too. What is the point? I mean honesetly! You can simply wait for the correct behaviour before adding a command word in training and praise with gooooooooooooooooood boy! Why click instead? Do all clicker lovers go out with their dogs with clickers in pockets? Saying good boy is so much better. It's very intimate - its your voice that the dog knows and trusts. Clickers may work wonders on dolphins - but then dolphins do make clicking sounds. So makes prefect sense.

I don't mean to cause offence it's purely my opinion. Just wondering if anyone agrees or am I all alone.

I can't see the point of them for dogs either to be honest, each to their own I suppose as at least it is reward based. I've just started my puppy's touch training, so I can start his heelwork training. I don't go to the extreme of some obedience handlers  who have their dogs totally focused n trying to touch their hand in heelwork & who look most odd working their dogs with their left hand held in a very unnatural position, but as I train off lead I need his concentration to get him in the correct heelwork position without manhandling him

Hi Becks,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and definitely not get booed for stating their preferences. What I imagine is that you have never used it and never been taught how to use it properly. There is a lot of background knowledge about clicker training and how/why it works. It is not just a matter of clicking. It is also the fastest and most effective way of teaching a behaviour until you put it on cue. Once it's on cue, you no longer need the clicker and you can go into variable reinforcement. Unless I am treating an aggression case, then I rarely take it out with me, once the beh. is on cue. Ofcourse, not all people that teach clicker training know much about it, they think it's click and that's it. As a result clients don't see the point and don't really understand it or use it properly.

I sometimes use clicker training with clients and sometimes I don't. Depends on the person and their skills. Many people just do not have the skills to do clicker training properly, so I don't even bother to get them started. However, the ones that I do put unto clicker training, enjoy it a lot more because their dog is learning faster and they find it a fantastic way to communicate with their dogs.

Secondly, if you don't want to do it, then you shouldn't have to. Just mention it to your trainer. They should be able to understand and respect your wishes. You should be happy with the classes and the methods used. All I would say is to stick to reward-based methods.

All the best,
Patty

I was really keen to use the clicker, the opposite to you really, :P but was so disappointed because it seemed  pointless to me also. I was ready to give up.

It was when i bought a few books and started to read about it that i got hooked. I started to "shape" Banya which is the most amazing thing, you can see the dog thinking, and then as our training advanced, realised the click is brilliant for very precise communication. I wouldn't be without it now.

I'm not explaining it very well as I'm a bit tired, but hopefully someone else will :P

I agree you shouldn't need to use it if you really dislike it.

Lindsay
x

Re: Patty

I have used it, I've been useing it for 3 weeks in training class and was showed how. I just really don't like it. :(

Becks, you said in your original posting that you'd never used it and didn't see the point of it........ Also, being shown *how* to do it, and undestanding the theory behind it could be two different things.....

I think it's good on a one to one basis, but I really can't see how it works in a large group basis???

I clicker trained Kelly about a year ago and it has made a huge difference to him. Good boy works but when he hears the click you can see that he is much happier, it lets him know without any doubt that he is right and his reward is coming. Deef doesn't do clickers, good boy and toys works for him, I can use food but he just takes it and then looks for the toy. Sol is only 6 1/2 months old and I have clicker trained him and the reaction is the same as Kel. It doesn't work for every dog or every owner and you shouldn't feel that you have to use it just because the rest of the class are. Some dogs don't like the sound of the click and can get upset. clickers don't just work on dolphins they have been used on Chimps as well as dogs, cats and horses.

Edited: Oops forgot to say that Kel is quite a sensitive dog and a bit of a worrier which I think is why it works so well for him. Sol is just a greedy pig and wants all the extra food he can get ;-)

Hi Becks, no booing from me! ;-)
I did clicker training with Oscar because the rest of the training group moved onto clickers so I did too. I found it really useful because the click becomes the praise or reward, so you can be more precise with your timing. I had difficulty training Oscar to walk nicely on his lead and the clicker meant I was able to praise him the split second he walked nicely -  a "good boy" would have taken too long, by which time he'd be pulling again and I would have reinforced his behaviour. The clicker also proved quite useful for the owners who didn't have a natural sense of timing and would otherwise end up rewarding/praising their dog long after the actual behaviour.
I don't think it's for everyone - especially the more experienced dog owner maybe - but I don't think it's a bad thing either. :-)

If you don't like it, can't see a need for it, and are confident in getting the results you want without it - why worry?

  However, don't knock it until you've tried it - it can be a VERY powerful tool........

I like it, but as a mental exercise for me and my dog, particularly Missy who gets VERY stressed out with the idea that she might get something 'wrong' - with clicker there doesn't have to be a 'wrong', it's only 'right' that matters :)  Some dogs might struggle because there isn't always an immediate reward and they need more clues, so I avoid 'shaping' with these sorts of dogs, but a clicker sound can still be used, or even a verbal marker if you prefer.

Your not alone out there. We don't like clickers either or target sticks. Just treats and the right word at the right time. I do think that clickers in a class situation can be misleading for some dogs, especially if all the owners click at different times. :-) Just stick to what you want to do and I am sure the others at your class wont mind.

No you are not alone, and of course with good timing you do not need a clicker.  What the clicker is designed to do is give the dog no douvt what behaviour is being approved and rewarded, it is used as a prompt. 

The human voice is something they hear burbling about al the time so may switch off.  This is why some dogs respond to the whistle on recall better than a shout. 

Also few peoples timing of praise is exacty enough and there is sometimes some confusion in the dogs mind what is wanted whereas the click is immiedoate after the action.

I can't see hopw this training can be doen in a class situation, individually yes, but in a class I think there is danger of confusion or switch off as the other peoples clickers becoem background noise.

I don't care for theri use, but then I have never wanted to train my dogs for any presision.  I am happy with a dog that doesn't pull on lead, knows where I am in the Park and ambles over eventually lol.  If I use a shrper tone they usually know that my command is more urgent and respond more quickly.

Of course, even with good timing, you need a clicker, Brainless!  If you are training a dog to sit or drop to whistle when it is 200 metres away from you, how do you reward that sit or drop the instant it happens if you can't mark it using a clicker?  The clicker is incredibly useful when working at a distance.

As long as you've got the wind behind you! ;) If timing is so critical with the clicker, the sound would otherwise reach a distant dog at the wrong time ...

Funnily enough its not that difficult to teach a dog to stop on the whistle without using food rewards much less a clicker!

This si what I mean that if you require a presise behaviour that you cannot control by using your hands, or lead the clicker is a great tool.

I won't boo you becks.  I used to taken each of my puppies to a socialisation class run by the best dog trainer/behaviourist that I have ever met, I would always recommend her to my grooming puppies.  One very experienced puppy owner asked me to go to class with her because she couldn't graps the 'new' concept.  I did and I couldn't either, but wasn't prepared to reject the method because of the great respect that I had to the trainer.  If SHE said it was good, then it must be!! :)
I spoke to her about my concerns, she explained "the marker" thinking and I took my next puppy to the full course of classes, doing my very best to follow the tuition given.  But it seemed to take me so much longer than just using my voice and treats as I had done for years.  The trainer said that she found it enormously useful in class because the majority of pet owners have minimal dog understanding and little tonality in their voices.  With the clicker the dog is left in no doubt when it is giving (or even beginning to give) the required behaviour.
So I now consider clicker training as another option for training.  There is no 'one size fits all'.  Some people find absolutely brilliant, so it can't be rubbish.  One of my grooming dogs, a Yorkie (well 10lb with a tail!) was trained to put her toys back into the toy box at the end of the day with a clicker!!  But it doesn't suit me.;)

PS Brainless I think that good timing is essential whatever training method is used!  If you don't have good timing with a clicker, the dog doesn't know what behaviour is being marked. ;)

I did mean the timing of praise, as the clicker marks the behaviour, so if the praise is a bit late it doesn't confuse the dog as much. :D

There is a big difference between 'Good boy' and a click, becks.

A click means: 1. You performed the right behaviour 2. You are going to get a treat  3.  You can stop doing the behaviour now - the exercise is over.

I don't think 'Good boy' quite is that precise!  Not unless you give a treat every single time you say good boy, and you NEVER say 'good boy' and don't give a treat.  Also if your dog is performing, say, a stay, a click would terminate the behaviour because it means 'end of exercise' - if you are claiming that 'good boy' is the same thing, then you would never praise using 'good boy' during a stay because it would break the stay.

If you don't want to use it, then don't - nobody's forcing you.  But it is indisputedly the fastest and most effective way to train anything.  If you've never tried it, then you can't really comment on it.

By the way, clickers have been used to successfully train: a hermit crab to open his shell and turn over, a chicken to dance and spin in circles, hawks and kestrels for hawking, cats to run cat agility courses and numerous other behaviours, ducks to swim backwards and so many other things I can't list them all here.  None of these animals make 'clicking' noises. 

Oh, and while I think about it: how would you, without using a clicker, train your dog to yawn?  (not to open his mouth, but really to yawn).  How would you train it to sneeze?  To fart, even??  All of this has been done using a clicker.  

Quote : Oh, and while I think about it: how would you, without using a clicker, train your dog to yawn?  (not to open his mouth, but really to yawn).  How would you train it to sneeze?  To fart, even??  All of this has been done using a clicker.

Funnily enough it never occurred to me to try!

Clickers can be a useful tool, more particularly when teaching 'tricks', but lets not pretend that the average dog owner cant achieve a very high standard without one. 

>Funnily enough it never occurred to me to try!

LOL! Nor me! In fact I'd imagine it could cause a dog great discomfort.

Not forgetting that 'tricks' are just behaviours, just like present, finish, fetch, sit, stay, jump, down are. They are just different and often more complicated.

If you don't use the clicker, the you just don't know what it can do and how to use it. In the same token, nobody should force you to use one if you don't want to.

You know what they say, ask 10 trainers a question...... :-D

Cheers,
Patty

A clicker can be a useful tool and they have their place in training. 

A lot of training classes nowadays do use them, but if you do not want to use one then don't. 

If you are feeling actively encouraged by your training instructor, then discuss it with her/him.  If you are feeling covertly pressurized because everyone else is using one then perhaps try and find a class who don't use them. 

Whether it's more or less effective than using your voice or other methods really depends on the person, their interpretation and is debatable. 

But if you haven't used one, then how do you know how to use it or what it can do? 

I could not see the point of them for a long time but decided a couple of years ago that I would give it a good try.  I went to a motivational training day put on by my obedience club, and although he did not actually use clickers he used a similar method and I was very impressed.

I am currently teaching my young bitch a completely new exercise.  She knows what the clicker means (and gets excited when she sees it) and I am lucky in some ways that she will generally work for voice, food or toy but the clicker just gives me that edge to show her when she is doing *exactly* what I want.

She gets it right - click - if I was using my voice in this instance it would not be as effective as even a quick "good" would take to long and the exact moment could be missed.  So she gets it right, I click and then I get her toy out and play with her.  The next time we try she works just a bit harder as the exercise I am teaching has to be on her terms, it is not one that I can use any sort of compulsion for even if I wanted to.

I would not use the clicker for everything as find it irritating to carry around (along with lead, toys, food etc) but for somethings it is a very useful tool.  Once the basic exercise is learnt then the clicker goes away again.

I would say keep and open mind, if you get the opportunity to go to a clicker training day then go, even if you still end up disliking it you will have leant more about training and may be able to incorporate other methods.

Some people advocate a totally hands off the dog, just use clicker training method  - not something I would consider, for my breed anyway, but they do have their place once you have learnt how to use them.

I am clicker training Max and he is the first out of the bunch that i actually tried it on. It works wonders , repeating a command for 5 minutes a day click and treat and in 2 days he's got it down. I'd list all the tricks he knows but i just cant think of them all right now. Its funn when i pull out the clicker how he does random tricks to get it to click , he's associated all of them with voice commands though.

We started clicker training at puppy classes but by the third week even the trainer wasn't telling us to use the clicker so it stayed in the bag.  I must admit I found praising, giving a treat and clicking the clicker all at the same time a bit too much.  Me telling Poppy she's a clever girl and giving her a titbit of liver sausage means more to her than a click from a clicker.

HI, I've never been to obedience classess with my dogs (thats not what Sibes are for!), but I can understand the clicker thing, it's just basic Skinnerism after all.

Having never been to a class though can someone tell me if you train each dog indivually or as a group? I'd have thought all those clickers going at the same time would be very confusing for the dog?

At the class I attended, all the puppies were trained together.  Most of the pet owners were struggling to hold the dog's lead, clicker and treat at the same time!  They were clicking when they didn't mean to, dropping the treat, dropping the lead, forgetting to wait for the behaviour before saying the word.  It was chaos for the whole 6 weeks for most of the owners.  I'm sure it gets better with practice, and some co-ordinated people had no problem from the start. 
We weren't allowed to handle the pups to put them into the required position.  I remember waiting for 10 minutes for my pups to lie down before I was allowed to click and treat and say 'down'!!  I could have trained the down in 2 minutes flat in the old fashioned way!  But horses for courses ...... for those who are happy with it, that's just fine.
I've always thought that to train a class of undoggy pet owners, the patience of a saint is required!! :)

>Most of the pet owners were struggling to hold the dog's lead, clicker and treat at the same time! 

That's the problem with it, Val, it can be difficult for some to hold the lead, the clicker and the treat all at the same time and co-ordinate the movements correctly.  It gets better with practice and time tho.

I'm sure it does Spender.  And I've also seen some skilled operators! :)  But it is a struggle in your average pet class.  My client who used a clicker to train her Yorkie to do tricks was an old arthritic ridden lady. 
If it suits, then it's just fine. ;)

>Some people advocate a totally hands off the dog, just use clicker training method  - not something I would consider, for my breed anyway, but they do have their place once you have learnt how to use them.<

I train hands off & have done so since the first dog I personally trained back in 1964, not only do I train hands off but lead off as well & I do not use a clicker

Clickers are fine if you want to use them I don't so please don't tell me I need to try them becuse I have & got no better results than training without one. I have a 16 week old puppy who retrieves taught without a clicker & who is just being to grasp the touch for heelwork. He is no different to my other dogs except that I got him 5 weeks later than normal so he is really 5 weeks behind, but because he is older he has a longer attention span & learnt the retrieve quicker(one day instead of three))would he learnt quicker with a clicker I don't think so

BTW I know a good few top trainers who do not use clickers but will teach their use if requested because that is their job to provide their pupils with as many options as needed to train their dog(s) in order to find the right one for their dog(s)

I do get totally cheesed off by people using clickers outside obedience rings when people are working their dogs especially in the lower classes as it is unfair, the dog that is working doesn't know that the clicker is not being used for them if they have been clicker trained

There is no one way to teach dogs & every kind system is in it's own way correct, there are plenty of wrong ways, physical force, starvation, sticks etc & I would hope that no one on here would advocate physical punishment as a method

We have just been reading this post as OH has used a clicker on Dylan (Boxer) when he was about 10 weeks old - he got on quite well and Dylan soon sat, laid down and walked to heel in the lounge but he didn't carry on with it.  Well, reading this post together OH says to me, 'I'll try again, but the thing that stopped me was that I needed three hands ! One to hold the clicker, one to hold the treat and the other to guide Dylan into what he was supposed to be doing'  Bless him, perhaps if he didn't use doggy chocs as a training treat that melt in his hand he might get on a bit better :D

I have trained dogs without a clicker or treats in the past and have only resorted to using treats with my bitch as a distraction from other dogs as she has started to growl at them, as she is so food orientated she responds well to this however she is 3 1/2 years old and up until now I have only ever used my voice to praise her and she has done fantastically well.  I did the same with my GSD's and my parents Leonberger, they all respond to a 'good dog' and a load of fuss after the exercise.  I find if I use treats with dogs they concentrate on the treat and end up getting in a real flaff not concentrating on my and what I am asking.

I only use treats when baiting my boy in the ring and this is the only time he receives treats, he too is trained to sit, down, stay etc. 

Don't get me wrong I am not knocking clicker training or treat if it works for you but I see very little point in clicker training cos if it aint broke dont fix it!  I have heard that many dogs go crazy in the home when a light switch is turned on and of LOL!

Most of us have a voice and can use it 99% of the time (unless you have just been to a footie match or something) so if you always have it on you hwy not use it as you 'tool' for training?????

Most of us have a voice
I agree with you Enfielrotts, but my class was full of those ineffectual wimpy ladies who have monotone voices!  You know the type that I mean!! ;)  Boring clothes, grey personalities etc.  The trainer was having a problem getting them to find their 'happy voices' to praise their dogs when they were playing!!  I can see a clicker being useful in such cases, but they seemed to be as useless with their coordination as they were finding their happy voices! :)

Yes that is also a problem, most men have a problem finding a high pitched excited voice for recalls but in the training class we used to go to our trainer used to say, would you come back to me if I was say 'come eer Toby in' a depressed low voice - doubt it so pick yourself up, make a fool of yourself and be exciting - however I agree many people can't do this so therefore maybe a clicker would be useful....just not for me :D

>in the training class we used to go to our trainer used to say, would you come back to me if I was say 'come eer Toby in' a depressed low voice - doubt it so pick yourself up, make a fool of yourself and be exciting

I oh so agree with that, training should be fun, happy, energetic, encouraging and exciting.  I have two elderly dogs that absolutely adore training; they cannot get enough of it. I've always trained them that way and still do refresher training today. 

Ques for clicker experts, can't you use your voice with the clicker as well? 

>Most of the pet owners were struggling to hold the dog's lead, clicker and treat at the same time!

I have the clicker in between my teeth if i walk with it. The sound kind of rattles the brain but you get used to it.

Hi Spender,

Yeap, a lot of people in the States use a short, sharp, happy 'yes!' or some people 'click their tongue', if you know what I mean :-)

Dogs are amazing at knowing if that is their click or somebody else's. I've never had a problem with multi clickers in class. Mind, my clicker classes are only for 4 dogs at a time, as I find people need to get it absolutely right with clicker training, otherwise they will join the rest of the people that say that they tried clicker and it didn't work.

The first class of my course is just people without the dogs and we discuss clicker training and how it works. I give them an easy version of the theory behind classical conditioning and operant conditioning and speak of the attributes of the clicker, how it is conditioned, how to use and the do's and don'ts. Then they get loads of attention during class, to ensure they are doing it right. After they have passed the course they can move to advanced classes. Here they can choose to use or not use the clicker, my aim was to teach them another (more technical) way of teaching a dog. Whether they use or not is purely their choice (and yes, they all end up choosing to use it - unless they forget it at home!). :-)

One of my best clicker training moments was at a nosework day with Anne Bussey when she went into search squares retrieves and the clean retrieve to handler, it was amazing and I was really excited to see my dog's clear understanding, even though I've been using clicker for several years. It really helped me in my first competition working trial search square :)

Lindsay
x

I tend to find that dogs pick up which click is for them in a class situation by whenter their owner is looking at them. Remember dogs have very acute hearing so they can probably work out what sound came from where and if the owner isn't showing all the usual clicking body langiuage then they don't respond. I personally find clicker training fantastic, but then i've never trained without one. All my dogs are trained with a clicker from day one and i have found as i get better they get better. As it has been said the reason the click is more effective than the voice, a click is a very unique sound and so the dog is in no doubt to what you mean. we speak to our dogs all the time, so my dog doesn't get the precision or the interest from a good girl. If i'm training a touch how will the dog know whether i was 'clicking' the action that goes with 'good' or the 'girl'? Its just not instant enough.

"It gets better with practice and time tho."
That is the problem. Some dogs need to be trained now not later in time. It is better to put the dog in position, gently, and then say what it is doing and treat if necessary. :-)

>It gets better with practice and time tho

>That is the problem. Some dogs need to be trained now not later in time.

There are many different styles of training.  What works for one may not work for another, that doesn't mean that any of them are no good or that one is better than another etc, etc.  Most of it depends on the trainer and the dog. What works for one dog/trainer may not necessarily work for another.

As for some dogs needing to be trained 'now', I fail to see why 'now' should be an issue.  Surely it's better to teach at a speed that suits the dog. 

On the other hand new owners take time to learn too, it may be just as quick for them to learn clicker training as opposed to any other type of training.

So many owners think a method isn't any good unless it gets an instant response from the dog, regardless of the long term implications on their relationship with the dog, or the implications on the dogs behaviour - I'm thinking in particular of the Masterplus and other aversive methods which are so popular.

If the reponse is needed 'now' it's often better to manage the dogs lifestyle so he isn't given an opportunity to repeat the undesired behaviour until his training is rock solid.....

What I really didn't like from the trainer at my puppy classes is... I told her I had already taught him  Come, sit and down in the first week I got him. but she says I have to start all over (with things he already knows) with the clicker! I just don't understand that. I thought the point was to teach him the commands, not teaching him to like them with the clicker. So far I've found that its set him back and confused him. Before he was starting to work just for a good boy a lot of the time without even a treat. Because he had learned good boy was a great thing to hear (he'd seem so happy). Now with the clicker his response is slower and he keeps looking for me to say good boy and only trains with treats if theres a clicker. :( If I don't use the clicker he is much happier.

It might be that he doesnt' understand it yet, did you "charge" it up by doing lots of clicking and treating to start with? :)

If you feel very despondent and feel it's really not for you, speak to your trainer maybe and see what she says?

Most dogs will pick up very quickly that click means "that's it, got it!" and love clicker training; a class is usually full of bright eyes and happy dogs and owners (another reason I like it) esp. maybe a class or two up from starters :)

Dogs will train with either treats or toys, with clicker, but that's not to say you can't use praise and gradually phase out the food rewards and then you can still use praise (you may wonder if it's worth it. I used to train with just praise and reward and get better results now :) ).

I still feel though that if you're not happy, you don't have to use it - and if you do change your mind, you can always try again in the future after all :)

Lindsay
x

To click or not to click, it's purely a matter of opinion but FWIW here are my thoughts on it:

There can be a sort of slightly muddled, crossover period when a dog changes from other ways of training to clicker training because the thinking is slightly different and an adjustment has to be made.   It may take a while for the dog to work the principle out but IMHO it's worth the effort.

Having said that, I did have a rescue dog who never really enjoyed the thinking for herself that is engendered by clicker training - she had been trained harshly by her previous owner and could get stressed very easily if she didn't know what was required.  So I didn't use it so much with her and it suited her to go slowly.

On the other hand, the dog I have now was clicker trained from very early on and thinks much more proactively, so if she doesn't know what's required she tries lots of things to see which one gets the click and I find it much easier to teach her new things.

She also learns quite a lot of new stuff for herself, maybe it's not such a good idea teaching them to think for themselves ... :-D

Just to go off topic a tiny bit....
I have never had anything to do with clicker training, up to now i have always used praise and reward, which to present day has suited but....
we have recently rehomed a young lab from rescue kennels and i am wondering if this might be an option for her.
Having been treated very harshly at her previous home she is extremly hand shy and worse with men, any physical praise can be daunting for her espically from my partner and she has a habit of cowering and shying away and wetting herself, i am also finding that my partners voice is very deep and even when praising you can see she is so unsure of whats going on.
We are doing as much as we can to build her confidence with us but i am now starting to look towards some training with her as at 10 months she just about knows "sit" and nothing else at all (and i do mean nothing else)
Could clicker work for her ???
how would i introduce it ???
could someone explain the principles behind it etc ??
I have seen it demonstrated on chimps but they are obviously already aware of the clicker and what its for and how it works....
can anyone give me any advice ???
thanks and i hope post doesnt ramble to much !!!!
Donna

She sounds very much like my rescue Springer when I first got her - as far as she's concerned, the clicker is the best thing EVER!!

There are two ways of using a clicker - luring and shaping.  Luring is possibly the easiest in that you use a small food lure to encourage the dog to produce the 'shape' you want, and then use the clicker to mark the final correct position.  Shaping is a bit like the kids party game 'hot and cold' - you use the clicker to get the dog closer and closer to the final result by clicking (and rewarding) each tiny move in the right direction - most dogs find this mentally very challenging, and you have to be careful not to over do the stress, but to watch a dog work things out in this way is very rewarding.

Before you use either technique, the dog has to understand that a click means they are about to receive a reward, this is done by several sessions of simply clicking and treating the dog no matter what it does.  Once the dog starts to look for the reward following the click, you know it's begining to understand what the click is signifying.

HTH

Hi Donna :)  I think you have really touched upon something here.  I have been reading this thread with no intention of replying (because I would go on forever!!) until now.  Basically I clicker trained and still do clicker train my Afghan Hound bitch since she was 15 weeks old.  With it, I have taught her where to pee, to give me eye contact, to earn her time off lead, to behave off lead, to recall, to do basic obedience, to do competitive obedience, numerous tricks, to leave....Really the list is endless!!  Now to my point!  I have recently acquired a very hand shy, nervous and sorry state of a rescue in the way of a 9 year old Afghan Hound boy - Ralph!  After two weeks settling in I introduced him to a clicker...You know those waste of time things that people dont see the point of (or rather dont understand!)  With the clicker I have been able to reward him for calm behaviour around men, to accept my hand around his face, to take treats from me and I even use it to reward him for getting on the sofa - You see Ralph doesn't know how to appreciate comfort as he spent his life on a cold shed floor and snubbed his cosy warm beds for cold kitchen floors!  In just three weeks this dog has been transformed already and I haven't even scratched the surface!  My bitch flew through two kennel club awards and is very obedient off lead.  I use toy training my voice (and yes I even get tired with the amount of excitement that I have to generate) and a clicker.  Tonight at training my bitch retrieved more items than any gundog there all because I got her hooked on toys with the help of a clicker.  I strongly recommend the use of a clicker for your situation.  I also strongly believe that the owners need more clicker training than the dogs and that is one problem with this method.  Weird really the concept is quite a simple one to grasp....However I can see how difficult it must seem for some people...I mean, clicker, treats and dog - come on, it aint rocket science!

Just want to add to this that the click noise made by the clicker is also to be accompanied by words of praise such as good boy. The clicker however just highlights to the dog WHY he is a good boy, as long as your timing is right. I can imagine it would be a useless tool if used incorrectly or at the wrong time (just a second too late or early can really hinder the dog's training). I can't speak for everyone and it probably depends upon the breed but I found the clicker a god send when training my labrador puppy. The clicker has helped me so much and basically acts like puttting a tick next to the desired behaviour. I was very scepticle when my sister recommended it to me but I have to say don't knock it til you've tried it. I think a lot of people doupt the clicker (as I did at first), due to a lack of understanding. As soon as I took the time to read a little about it, it made perfect sense. I found it extremely useful and would recommend it to anyone. By the age of 12 weeks my puppy was fully house trained, could sit, lie down, give paw, roll over and walk backwards to command. He is now a lovable and well behaved 8 month old pup and I have no doupt that 80% of that is down to the clicker. IT REALLY DOES WORK!!!