Hello everybody...I am a new poster, but have often read alot on the board and I would really appreciate some of your knowledge for my situation. The problem is Recall with our 14 month old retriever, Amber. I will tell you a little of her history as I think it is relevant to why she doesnt respond to us very well. You see up and till she was 3 months old she was from a breeder but from what I can gather now, at 7 weeks the breeder put all the pups in the backyard and pretty much left them too it...she was completely and utterly bonded with her remaining littermates by the time we picked her up at 13 weeks. She just didnt seem to want to be with us in the slightest, she just wanted to be on her own. It was very upsetting to have a pup that didnt have any interaction with you at all. we tried so hard to bond with her, I was with her all day every day and she really didnt want to have much to do with me at all. Gradually she has got better, and she does like to be with us and play now but she always has been very difficult to get through to her. She most certainly doesnt try to please us, she doesnt really respond to praise, only food. Although she rarely fusses us I do know that deep down she loves us as I had to go away for a few days and when I returned she actually got excited to see me! I was so happy...but on a day to day basis she really doesnt show it that much. We love her so much, she has such an excellent, comical personality, everybody adores her. But the only time amber is truely happy is when she sees/plays with another dog or meets brand new people...she really comes alive and gets so excited you wouldnt imagine it was our Amber that rarely shows her happiness! unfortunately getting another dog for her is not a option and even if we did I would fear that she would just totally bond with the other dog and ignore us completely.
Anyway, we are at the point where the only problem we have with her is RECALL. We have worked so hard on this with her, but there just seems to be this part of her that we cant quite get through to. We only ever let her off where there are no other dogs as once she has seen one, that is it, we loose complete control...she will never come back once he has seen one, and I know that she only wants to play, but I cant risk it as it is not fair to the other dog walker to have her running up to them.  Luckily we live in the countryside where it is incredibly flat, so I can literally see for miles, so I know where it is safe to let her off. Once she is off the lead she really has no desire to run away anywhere, infact she keeps a really close eye on us. She pops her head up every couple of minutes to see where we are, and has never run off anywhere,its just when we recall her she barely even looks round. I know she knows what the word 'come' means...we have been training it from the day we got her...we have always used yummy treats and lots of praise but I can see that she decides that running loose is way better than any treats I have to offer, so she chooses to ignore it. I mean how do you train a dog that knows what something means but chooses not to respond to it...I mean where do I go from here?? I know I should probably go back to the long line..but in the long run I feel once she is off again she will decide not to come back. if I kept her on the lead forever, when would she get her exercise? we have a small garden so running in the countryside is the only exercise she gets. I just dont know what to do anymore, she is so intelligent (maybe too intelligent) and she is so easy to train eveything else to..its JUST recall!! Please help...I just dont know where to go from here??

14 Months she's still a puppy , don't worry about it at all. I have a 12 year old retriever and only since she was about 6-7 did she really actually respond correctly to recall. If your reallt worried about her running off then have her on a long lead and practice with distractions like other dogs. Give her a small tug and a come.

Recall is a life long command , 14 months is very little time to be completly bonded with ur dog.

just keep at it!! Im sure she'll get it in the end!

Definately keep at it as you will make progress. It took me two years to get my Beagle boy to respond well to a recall and sometimes he does switch his ears off now! Some things just smell too good................

I don't know anything about Gundog type breeds but maybe she'll respond to a Gundog whistle, my Dad looks after two Visla's and they will come back to a whistle 99% of the time, they really respond well it. Maybe a Gundog type trainer maybe able to advise you, goodluck and keep us posted.

As long as you can call her back long before danger and approaching dogs/tractors etc, which from your post it sounds like you can, then just keep doing what you are doing. If she responds to food then take something of high value with you and teach her to come back for that. Maybe she would respond to clicker training as it is very clear and doesn't have to involve anymore than a bit of food as she doesn't like being fussed much. Good luck with her, sounds like you have saved her from certain misery. :)

Thanks everybody! Your responses are very encouraging! I will always keep at the recall, I feel it is the most important thing that a dog can learn. Good suggestion about the whistle and Im sure I have one somewhere so I will certainly give a go.
I can call her back to get her back on the lead (although it sometimes takes a few attempts) and often she will respond well, sometimes she will wander back at her own leisure (getting distracted as she ambles back to me) and then there are the times that she wont even acknowledge my call at all. She is quite unpredictable, some days she will have good recall, others...I will get nothing! I sometimes feel though with the way that she doesnt have the slightest desire to 'please' us, will we ever get a great recall, or will she just continue to 'please' herself?? I know she is still young...I will keep at it, Im sure we WILL get there in the end!

Thanks again everybody!

Welcome to my world, you definately wouldn't want to own my breed as this level of independence is the norm for them :D

My freinds Golden Retriever when I first started taking her out was like this with me and her owner and she was about 3 years old at the time.

ooh whats your breed Brainless?? She is just so different to any Golden I have ever met or read about on forums like these!! She is so unbelievebly stubborn and is so selfish with her fusses! It is quite a sight to see a full grown adult on their hands and knees trying to get the DOG to fuss THEM! but...ah well, I love her all the same!

Ah now mine enjoy the fuss all except the oldest who likes attention but not petting.  The breed is the Norwegian Elkhound.  Persoanlly I don;t like a fawning dog,a dn have found some retrievers too much and certainly couldn't deal with the way most Spaniels and Collies of my aquaintance fawn on their owners.  The absolute Loyalty fo the GSd I can just about cope with, but woudl rather not have a dog that dependant on me, I ahve enough of that emotional responsibiltiy with two children.

As I often say one mans meat is another mans poison.  My first dog was far to needy for me (herding guarding breed), I like my breeds self sufficiency but good natured affection.

Er, I'm a bit surprised at some of the replies you've got here Goldilocks.  Obviously if you're trying something consistently and repetitively and it's not working then what you're doing isn't going to work, no matter how much more you do it.  At 14 mnths your retriever should come back as soon as you whistle or call.  At 18 mnths I know many retrievers who work on a shoot under close control and obviously recall is an essential part of that, so I don't think you're expecting too much, too soon at all.

Personally speaking, if this was my dog, this is what I'd do, if it's any help:  I'd reduce her food rations by half for about 2-3 days before I tried any training outdoors - this is to make her very keen on food, so that your food treats are very highly motivating to her when you recall her.  A full dog will be less willing to work for food than a very hungry dog.

During those 2-3 days, while I was reducing the rations, I would divide up her remaining food into plastic tubs and then put a tub, say in the hall, a tub in the kitchen, a tub in the toilet, etc etc.  Every time I went by one of those tubs, I'd pick it up and call her, then give her some food.  I'd also get different members of the family to go to different parts of the house with food and we'd all call her to us from one room to another, always rewarding with food.

When I had a really excellent 100% recall in the house, I'd do this in the garden (if you have a garden) with some really tasty treats, just to prime her for what she's going to get before we go outdoors. 

Then I'd move outside.  The idea is to increase the distractions slowly and to increase the value of the rewards.  So first of all, go to an isolated place where you know that you won't meet any other dogs or people.  Take some really really tasty treats.  By that I mean - an entire sardine each time she comes back.  Or a huge bit of jerky.  Or a cocktail sausage.  Something really really amazing to your dog.  Use these treats only for recall, not for any other training.  Call her once and if she comes first time, she gets a treat.  If she ignores you or stops on the way back, she doesn't get a treat when she gets to you.  Always call only once and only treat for a good fast recall.  And always let her go again immediately after she's eaten the treat.  Call her at least 6-10 times during each trip out and don't put the lead on her until the last time, when you want to go home.  Some dogs learn that a recall means the lead will be put on, so they won't come back because it means the end of the walk.  The way to get round this is to call them a lot and give them treats and let them go away again back to what they were doing.

Don't push it - try to succeed - don't let her get too far away or get too interested in something before you call her.  The idea isn't to progress fast, it's to always succeed, even if you have lower goals at first.  As she gets better, recall her from increasingly distracting things. 

If you think she won't come back from something, it is far better to go and get her (if you can) than to call and allow her to ignore you - that will only teach her that it's ok to ignore you.  In that case, go and get her and don't tell her off - just collect her. 

And finally - if she does something really bad and then you recall her, never ever ever tell her off.  She will think you are scolding her for coming back, not for the thing she did before that.  ALWAYS treat with high value treats for recalls.

Thankyou onetwothree..that is very constructive advice and I guess is pushing what I have been doing a bit further, ie the reducing food before training...and using VERY high value treats. In the past I have used pieces of chicken, cheese, beef...but have always used small pieces through fear of her putting on weight as I was using them everyday. I guess I do need to take it right back and start recall in the house. Since posting this morning I have dug out the dog whistle...and to my amazment have got a fantastic response from her, in just a few hours of repetative recalls in the house and garden she comes charging at me whenever she hears it...AND at one point she was digging in the garden (one of her favorite pastimes) and I gave it a try and she almost knocked me over as she came hurtling towards me! this is a response I have never achieved in the house using my voice,and never a chance while shes digging! so do you think this is something that I should continue with her?? or do you think I need to work on it using my voice?

Thanks again everybody

That's great news Goldilocks!

I'm not an expert so I couldn't advise what is the best way to train her but if the whistle works and it was me I would proberly work her using the whistle.

I mean my only concern is that it is something I have to have with me, I mean I would rather it was my own voice...but I guess if it works I will just have to buy loads of em and keep them everywhere!

So I guess my options are that I can keep going with the whistle or do the food rationing thing and keep using my voice? hmmmmm....

I like the idea of the whistle in one way as it is not something I have tried before and will have no emotion tied to it...I mean sometimes I would get so upset with her on really bad days so she could probably tell in my voice that I was getting disheartened...and as she doesnt really respond to praise then the whistle might be good..??

>Er, I'm a bit surprised at some of the replies you've got here Goldilocks.  Obviously if you're trying something >consistently and repetitively and it's not working then what you're doing isn't going to work, no matter how much >more you do it.  At 14 mnths your retriever should come back as soon as you whistle or call.  At 18 mnths I know >many retrievers who work on a shoot under close control and obviously recall is an essential part of that, so I >don't think you're expecting too much, too soon at all.

THANK YOU! I was trying to keep quiet (and this ISN'T aimed at the poster but at some of the replies), but I really do think that most dogs, but Goldens in particular (SO easy to train), should have learnt to come when called at a VERY early age. I'm sorry but I don't think it is acceptable at all to say that some Goldens don't get it until they are 6 or so....... If started at an early age, recall is so EASY to teach.

The following is how I teach PUPPIES. All young puppies are like ducklings, all they want at first is to be close to their owners. So you go to a safe area, let the pup off the lead, walk around a little, and now and then you suddenly hide or change directions. In absolutely no time at all the pup will learn to keep its eyes on YOU as you're an unpredictable bugger :D and if this is kept up all during the dog's life, you will in no time at all have a dog that comes the split second it is called.

The second vital thing is to make sure you are always MORE important than anything else, like other dogs and people. Keep calling the dog to you during walks just to praise it, cuddle it, play, treat, whatever, then let it go again.Never ever just call it once during a walk to put the lead on (the dog will then know it's no fun at all to come), and don't over use the name.Calling "Rover Rover ROVER ROOOOVEEERRR!" just teaches the dog to NOT listen to his name.  Coming to you means FUN. And DON'T call to start with if the dog is in a situation where it may NOT come (i.e. don't give him a chance to fail), come should mean it is IMPORTANT and an instant response is expected. Only at the weekend was I out in the park and woods with my kids teaching a puppy all of this, explaining to them how it works.  I have 9 dogs and not a single one of them EVER hesitate when called, they all come immediately when called -even if there is  a  dog in front of them or a person or anything.  I have timed them and it never takes more than 10 seconds for them to come running, finding me, if I quickly and quietly duck behind some bushes or something -they know to keep their eyes on me. Nor do I ever say a word when changing direction suddenly -the dogs have to keep up with me. I don't wait for them. (Not unless they are adult and we are doing a formal recall with finish where it is demanded.) With a puppy, however, I do call its name ONCE to get its attention if I change directions, and then move away quickly -they soon follow!

Obviously it is all different if the dog is already adult and ALREADY has bad habits, but when started early, there is no reason for why a Golden should not be totally reliable at recalls long before it is adult. After all, like you say, they were bred to be gundogs and a VITAL part of this is to come back!! It's in their blood, just as retrieving is. So that's a major bonus to start with.

My youngest Golden passed his Good Citizen Gold test at 11 months of age. No it isn't much really, but it does involve walking to heel off lead, an interrupted recall, stays out of sight etc, and I think it just goes to show what a Golden CAN do, that we passed it even before his first birthday. :)

Marianne

Thankyou marianne...you must be very proud of your golden boy. I really was trying to get over in my first post that Amber was not like other puppies...we got her at 13wks and even by that age she had not bonded with any human...she was left with her littermates in the backyard...she was 100% bonded to other dogs...she missed all of those important bonding stages that I have read so much about since we had her. She wanted absolutely nothing to do with us for the first few months...she wanted to be alone (most certainly not a 'duckling') and only showed real happiness when she saw other dogs. We really did try are hardest with the recall from the day we brought her home...but we had none of the puppy following thing that goes on with most pups...so you can imagine how hard it is to begin those vital beginings of recall in puppyhood.
So this is why I do feel that we are having trouble with recall now...especially when she sees another dog...I still dont know if we will EVER get over that hurdle...but I will keep trying with her...and definately try some suggestions from here!

Yes, this is why I said my post wasn't aimed at you -because clearly your problems weren't of your doing. A few weeks for a young pup can make a lot of difference.   But Amber is still young and I'm sure you can get things right. :) Good luck!

Marianne

ah, I see, I didnt think you meant that the whole thing wasnt aimed at me...I get it now!
Yes, I soooo believe that if we'd just got her a few weeks earlier it would have made all the difference in the world...if i could change one thing it would have found her at 8 weeks...but hey, cant change that now! Thanks for your reassurence, Im sure we will get there!!

Ps, where oh where do you get the smiles from on this board??

Hi -

About the whistle/voice thing - you can definitely use a whistle, but you're right that sometimes you might need to call her and not have a whistle with you, or not have time to get it into your mouth if it's an emergency.  So you DO want her to respond to a verbal recall as well as a whistle recall, and if that's the case you'll have double to practise, cos you'll need to practice both the whistle one and the voice one, and to the dog they are separate cues and practising one won't transfer to the other.  (Ie if you practise loads of whistle recalls it doesn't mean her verbal recall will get any better).

But what you said about being angry or disheartened sometimes is very interesting - perhaps you have poisoned her verbal recall cue a bit?  If that's the case, I would start again with a different word.  If you usually say 'Dog's name, Come', then try saying 'This way' or 'here' or 'To me' - or anything else - start it in the house and build up gradually.  This way you can start again with a new cue and charge it up really powerfully and make sure it doesn't get poisoned.

As for the age that you got her at - that might have something to do with it, and it probably didn't help, but to be honest, in times passed, all dogs used to go to their new homes at 12 wks old.  It's a relatively recent development that 7/8 wks has become acceptable.  So although that might play some part in it, there must be other factors as well.

If I were you, I'd try playing games that involve you and her together having fun - games like tuggy, for example.

Thanks onetwothree...I will certainly take into consideration the points you have mentioned about the whistle...and changing the word may be useful..although just want to add that I have never got angry with her during recall practice...more just upset and disheartened if she seems to be not acknowledging me (which would normally happen the day after a really good training session!) So I will continue with the whistle training (as we have had another really sucessful day with it) and will think about changing the word to a new one for the verbal recall.
I understand what you are saying about it may not be all down to the time we got her...as we too had dogs growing up that we got later on as rescues...and they all settled in beautifully. the difference with Amber, I feel is, that she didnt bond with ANYONE during her early puppyhood...only other dogs until 13 weeks. I really think they got very little human contact. From what I have read about puppy development there is an important early stage where they need to bond with humans (whether that be the breeder or new owner) but Amber missed this entirely...she only bonded with dogs, and I so strongly feel that this has a lot to do with how she is sometimes. And we do have so much fun with her (when we can get her excited enough)...she has constant love from us, we take her everywhere with us, (my husband even likes to walk her around town while I do the weekly shop because he likes to keep her with us!) she has never even been left on her own for more than 3 hours since the day we brought her home, we play lots and do training with her every single day, so if there are other factors to do with her not bonding with us as well as other dogs I have owned then I really wouldnt know what!

I just thought I would let you all know that the whistle training with Amber is going fantastically! I am so delighted by our progress...she is just so aware and alert to the sound...she flies back at me straight away...we are gradually upping the distractions...we are up to the point of if she spots a dog (in the distance) I can call her back instantly (which is amazing for us...there is no bigger distraction to Amber than another dog!) The great progress with the whistle, in turn is making her much more aware of my voice aswell...she seems to listen to me more and be watches me more closely when out...so I am combining the whistle and voice recall training. I just hope I am not jinxing it by talking about it...as usually when she is getting really good at it for a period..she will then start to ignore us again..so fingers crossed)
I also wanted to ask if anyone had any treat ideas for recall...I obviously want something really tasty for her..I have been using sardines quite alot and I didnt know if it would be bad for her to have them everyday?? I also want something that wont be too fattening (she is just the right weight at the moment and she seems to put weight on really easily) any ideas??

Frankfurters chopped up always work well!!

That fantastic news! I'm really pleased you have had such success with the whistle and you post indicates you are very proud and excited which is great and very positive!

For a special treat I make a Nature Diet cake ( my boys loves it ). I don't have the recipe on me but I'll try to remember to bring into work tomorrow and I'll post tomorrow.

Thanks for your ideas guys! and yes, I am so unbelievebly happy with our progress...we have had yet another great day of recalls!! I can even call her away from splashing around in the ditches that run between the fields! (and this is a retriever we are talking about!) She now gets excited when she even sees the whistle as she know that treats are in store for her when she comes back to it!
I have been using nature diet for some of the recall training (messy business!)...so making it into a cake would be great! I also looked at some previous threads about how to make liver cake...so I will certainly give that a go! Thanks again!