I have read up on previous boards on whether I should call my dog a border collie or a working sheep dog.  Before reading I thought a border collie could only be called this when it was a KC registered animal - everything else that was bred from farm collies were working sheep dogs.  My pup - a red and white short haired ?????? was advertised as a border collie. Her parents were a black and white short haired crossed with a red and white long haired.  There was a red merle in the litter as well but clearly the boss of the litter and not in the least interested in us so we passed on her even though I longed for something really good looking. (Meg is really pretty anyway)  She or her parents are not registered as anything.  All the shepherd's dogs looked like collies - no cross breeds.  I tried phoning for quotes for insurance - I was told that as a border collie I would have to pay the higher rate - but I argued that she was not pedigree.
So am I correct in calling her a BC?

theoretically she is a working sheepdog as she isnt papered but alot of people call them border collies including me. A recognised KC dog is a border collie anything else a working sheepdog.

A dog registered ISDS is also classed as a Border Collie.
Unregistered dogs are classed as working sheepdogs.
As far as I am concerned, its much like German Shepherd Dog or Alsation.

>A dog registered ISDS is also classed as a Border Collie.Unregistered dogs are classed as working sheepdogs.As far as I am concerned, its much likeGerman Shepherd Dog or Alsation.<

Can I explain

Before BC's were recognized as a Breed & allowed to compete for Breed CCs, they were on the then Working Trials & Obedience register, on which any dog  can be registered. However only dogs who were then registered with the ISDS could be registered as BC's the non ISDS registered BC's from ISDS & non ISDS registered parents were called Working Sheepdogs.

When the KC recognized the BC for breed competitions all the BC's registered on the WTOR were transferred onto the breed register & the KC also continued to register ISDS registered BC's as BC's on the Breed register & not the WTOR. They also accepted dogs from abroad(mainly Australia & New Zealand-whose BC's came from exported ISDS dogs back in the 1920's with a smattering of kelpie blood in the some of the Australian dogs)

It is nothing like the GSD which was called incorrectly called Alsatian Wolfdog after WWI because of the hatred of anything German

The puppies from a mating between an ISDS stud & a KC bitch can also be registered as BC's, without being registered with the ISDS

Interesting the ISDS certificate states Border Collie(or Working Sheepdog) & the ISDS will register dogs from unregistered parents if they can show that they are able to work & they have ROM(registered on merit)on their entry in the ISDS stud book. To register puppies with the ISDS both the stud dog owner & bitch owners have to be members of the ISDS & the stud dog owner is responsible for notifying the mating to the ISDS & it has to be done within strict time limits. This is why a lot of dogs who could be ISDS registered aren't because their owners are not members. The dogs have to be eye tested clear as well in order to have a full ISDS registration

If there was a merle pup in the litter, there must have been a merle parent.  You can't get merle from black/white x red/white.  It's possible that pseudo merle could occur ie a genetically merle dog can appear black/white or red/white but I haven't heard of this in BCs.

Julie

Thats the theory but a genetist I know thinks otherwise  I had a B&W(all B&W breeding) dog who produced a merle dog to an all B&W bred B&W white faced bitch. The puppy had two brown eyes & was a blue merle with no tan markings & no before anyone says anything no other dog was involved as the DNA tests proved.

>> a genetist I know thinks otherwise 

Does he/she have an alternative theory? :-)  If mismating can be ruled out, there's always the possibility of a rare mutation.

Julie

I've always wondered about this one. Merle is a dominant gene and you need a merle to produce one but if that's the case where did the first merles come from?

That is one of the theories that the genetist is considering as the merle occurs in GD & is not dominant as otherwise my friends GD bitch could not have produced merles in her litter to a dog the same colour as her & neither were merles themselves

I don't think anyone has id'd the marker gene(s)for merles yet if they have they have not published yet

Merle is one of the few genes that geneticist and colour writers agree on.  It isn't a complete dominant, rather a co-dominant where the three genenotypes each have different phenotype.  It's true that odd occurrences do happen with many of the colour genes but this doesn't mean that the usual theory is thrown out the window.  Unexpected merles can usually be explained as mismating, pseudo or mutation.

There have been instances of merle seemingly appearing from nowhere in breeds and the Chihuahua is one recent case.  There was an article in one of the dog papers recently on this and the feeling was that this originated in the States from a Chi x merle of a different breed.

No, merle hasn't been sequenced yet.  Not high on the list of priorities in colour I would think.

Soory MM, can't work out what a GD is.....Duh!

Julie

Great Dane

& not ALL genetists agree on the mode of inheritance & won't until they finder the marker gene(s)

Could I ask what colour the GD parents of the merle were?

If you have any references for the views of other geneticist on merle, I'd be interested to read.

Julie

Both were blue from her own lines of pure blue breeding & it was merles plural

& there are lota of harlies that produce merles as well

Harlequin is actually a modified merle with the addition of H gene and will produce ~50% merles to non melres that don't "carry" harl.  Merle is an unavoidable byproduct of breeding for harlequin.

I have now looked up the current colour sequencing and merle is indeed under investigation.  The interest is in the associated ear and eye deformities.

Julie

Actually the merle was the original colour(so I am told)behind the orignal hounds now called Great Danes, apparently there are drawings/paintings with the german boar hounds(now called GD)& they are nearly all merle parti colours-my friend has some very old books with them in(all in archaic (sp)german sadly so they are very difficult to read, but the illustrations are ok)

Hi cm

Merle is a mutation of the M gene where the normal pattern is non-merle.  This mutation would have occurred many years ago, probably in the herding breed population and has been deliberately bred to preserve it through many breeds.

Any colour or pattern that is not found in the wolf would probably have started in this same way but merle is quite unusual in that it is a co-dominant.  Mutations are usually recessives and some of the colour variations could have been present in the wolf before domestication as they can lie hidden for generations but not merle as any pup born in the wild with this pattern would be unlikely to live long enough to reproduce.

Julie

I wondered how much inbreeding there was in the shepherd's dogs - He had 3 bitches who had all come into season and produced 3 litters. The one bitch was a red merle and she had a number of red merle puppies.  They were younger and he said (didn't tell me this over the phone before I went) that they were all spoken for.  I really think that he wanted to get rid of the older pups first - which I could understand.  All the pups were fathered by the red and white male.  He said that he had 7 working dogs - only 4 adults were in evidence. He had bred all of his dogs.  He didn't do any eye testing.  I know I was taking something of a risk but he seemed very sensible compared to some of the people I visited looking for a pup.  All the dogs seemed happy and healthy.

If you have no papers at all & want to register with the KC on the activites reg,she needs to be a WS.

she will also be a WS IF she is registered with the ISDS,
if she is reg with the ISDS as a WS - then if you wanted to reg her with the KC she would be a BC (with the KC only) & a WS with the ISDS

she will be a BC also if is reg with the KC breed reg only

HOWEVER,if you dont want to register her,id just call her a border collie! :)

all mine are offically KC  WSs but if anyone asks me in the street,then they are BCs,because THAT is what they are & who wants to explain all this BC/WS stuff each time????????

>a WS with the ISDS<

All the dogs in the ISDS stud book are described as Border Collie(or Working Sheepdog)the ISDS does nor differentiate between the two. She cannot be registered with the ISDS as a WSD alone

If this bitch is not registered with the ISDS & her parents were, the only way she can be registered with the ISDS now is for the breeder(if a member)to pay the fine for late registration & register her now or if the breeder is not a member ,she could take the working test & be a ROM dog. You(as the owner)cannot register dogs with the ISDS just because it's parents are registered unless it passes the working test. She can be registered with the KC as a BC if you have the certificates of both parents(or copies)

Forgot to add to my original post that the reverse to the ISDS sire & KC dam(ie KC sire & ISDS dam)he from two ISDS parents. This does not apply to the ISDS of course

Thanks for the info. I was quite happy to have a dog that wasn't registered as anything. I am only interested in agility perhaps in the future - we have a local club.  It doesn't matter what they are for that.  I was just interested in calling her the right thing. So it is quite correct in calling her a working sheep dog for insurance purposes. 

Yep Especially if it saves you money, I would have her hip scored & eye tested tho' if you are going to do agility & you don't need to have her KC registered to do that

BTW they are all BC to me ! :D

I have got a tri colour who is very Sealight but was a rescue and not bred by Bing Bellamy (I checked with her) and he is registered as a WSD on the wt&ob. reg. Indy is a chocolate, white & tan (red&white tri) Woodsorrel, very much BC although he looks completely different to any BC you will ever see in the breed ring! :p Spy, B&W, is another rescue so again a WSD but he looks more breed collie than any of the BC's I know, including the breed line ones.

As do the others, if anyone asks I say they are collies because in essence they are, just without the kc paper work. BTW mine are insured and it made no difference between the BC/WSDs.

MM can I just ask why you would advise hip scoring and eye testing for agility, I have never heard of that being done for that reason before. :)

>MM can I just ask why you would advise hip scoring and eye testing for agility, I have never heard of that being done for that reason before.

It always amazes me how few people in agility do not put this as a top priority and are happy to buy puppies from non tested parents. (Not having a go at you colliesrus).

It is so important to have a dog with good hips in agility as they are pounding their joints more then the average pet everytime they train or go into the ring.  I also feel the need for them to be balanced ie so many are straight stifled, which shows as bum high and stops them getting the drive for jumping.  A short upper arm will shorten a good stride between jumps.

From what I see a lot of damage is done through letting puppies run around with the older dogs, unfortunately I used to see this all the time in the exercise area's of agility shows.

I can only think it is lack of education, how you go about correcting this I don't know.  Obedience people are starting to catch on how important a well balanced dog is, hopefully this will rub off onto agility.

I am not talking about buying puppies from hip scored parents, obviously that is important and the only puppy I have ever bought was from parents with a very low hip score. The other two of my dogs are rescues. I do not need 'educating' in that respect, what I wanted to know was why MM also recommended to have a bitch hip scored because she is going to do agility, not for breeding. I train with some of the top handlers in the country and have never heard of it before and want to know if it may be worth getting them done.

I wasn't educating you, I was talking generally. 

I can't answer for MM, but an advantage of hip scoring an agility dog would be to see you were not doing further damage to a dog which had bad hips.  If they were not too bad, but above average I would possibly cut down on the amount of training I did, or train on a reduced height A frame and jumps.

Ditto Sandra has written

I had a dog from working parents(with low scores I must add)who had severe HD with no clinical signs(no symptoms)If hadn't bothered to have him hip scored I could have ended up with a disabled dog. He did agility for fun & never competed as his hips might have been affected by the training & competing

He was clear of CEA, but I know of a dog who has severe CEA so much so he is almost blind in both eyes, a friend had a rough collie who was completely blind(PRA)& had he been untested he could have started agility training & had a bad accident.

It is important to make sure that any competitve dog is as fit as possible, sadly there is a CEA carrier top obedience dog who is producing CEA affected puppies He could be used if all the bitches he was used on were DNA tested clear of CEA, but this is not happening.

Speed isn't everything in agility & the better constructed the dog the easier agility is on their bodies.

All dogs should be health tested before not only agility or breeding but before any strenuous exercise.It isn't fair on the dog otherwise

So how do you go about getting them hip scored? My competition dogs are 3 and 14 months. The youngest was a rescue.

I keep hearing ppl say 'agility ppl do not bother with health tested parents' but TBH I do not know anyone from agility, or for that matter obedience, who has ever got a pup from non-tested parents. I wonder if it is region thing...

Your vet will take x-rays when they're 12 months+ and send the plates to the BVA/KC for scoring.

If you plan to do agility which of course puts more-than-average strain on a dog it's vital to know that you won't be crippling it ...

Edit: I'm guessing your dogs are 14 months and 3years, not 3 months? If so, you can get them both scored now. If you did mean 3 months, then of course you'll have to wait - but you won't be starting agility till 12 months+ anyway.
:)

Yes sorry, I meant 3, and 14 months, not 3 and 14 months, it read right to me at the time lol. So is it just an x-ray then, nothing nasty? It's wierd how I've never heard of this being done. I'm going to email Amanda and Toni now and find out if they get it done. :)

Oo tricky one this.  I do agree with Sandra that puppies should only be bought from tested parents.  There are more and more agility people making sure that parents are tested.  It has been poor in the past but it IS improving.  I also know quite a few agility people who's dogs have been DNA tested for CEA as well as having been hipsocred.  And long may it continue. 

It is important that pups are from hipscored parents.  It is no guarantee that the pup will have great hips but it  helps to be on the right track.  And obviously hips are a very important part of a dog regardless of weather or  not they are doing agility but maybe more so in agility (did that make sense!).

And here is the part that I know some will disagree with.... I wouldn't hip score a dog before starting agility with them.  I do know one or two people that always have their dogs hips checked before they start training in ernest but it is a minority.  I haven't had any of my dogs hips checked.  If there was a problem and I felt that their jumping action wasn't correct then they would be straight in to be checked but all the time that they are jumping happily then I will continue to work them and they will continue to be un hip socred.  My choice, I know not everyone is the same.

I think if you hipscored every dog in agility, you would get rid of half of them from competing (now there's and idea to get rid of the competiton!).  And I think there is a balance between a dog enjoying life or sitting around to not a lot because of a slightly above average hip score.  Obviously I am not condoning running a dog with a problem.  Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

I do also know of at least two dogs that have competed succesfully in agility that have had not hips!  And it wasn't to the detrement of the dogs, they both lived long happy lives and just retired a little earlier from agility than maybe they would have done.

A similar scenario applies to things like spondylosis.  I know of people that have been advised to give up competing because of this problem but talking to an agility vet, if you checked all agility dogs then a good majority over 5 years of age (ish) would have some form/early signs of spondylosis!

Sorry digressing a bit!  But def. should always buy from hip scored parents

Slobdog, My boy has a perfect jumping action. I have pictures of him sailing over jumps with his front feet tucked under him and his back legs stretched out together. He has never had any problem jumping, he has never been lame, he has never refused a jump or gone under one and has done everything that was asked of him. I took him to the vet because I knew he just wasn't right and when they examined him they agreed. I was told that he was in a bit of pain, that he should have told me to get lost and refused to jump a stick on bricks and that he should have been dead lame but he wasn't. He is only 4 years old, and I am very lucky in that he only has a mild problem-his sockets are slightly shallower than they should be but one hip was injured doing agility and this is exagerated by the displasia. I was told by lots of people tha he was fine and I should carry on and that dogs with no hips have carried on and done well..... A lot of agility people would not have dogs if they did not do agility, they are working dogs first and pets afterwards. The welfare of my boy is far more important. The signs that he wasn't right were very subtle but I know my dog better than anyone and my vet trusts me in this respect. I could not morally continue to compete at full height with a dog with a severe problem like the ones that you mention, I could not do it with this dog. He now does a little flyball for fun and loves it and he will be training tomorrow night over lower jumps again for fun as there are not many anysize classes about. I would never have another pup from parents that weren't tested, hips and eyes. There are lot of agility people that still don't think that scoring is necessary and having a dog affected by CEA isn't such a big deal, these are the same ones that allow their pups to charge round an exercise are after the adults and breed from unregistered dogs with no traceability

Hi Colliemad,

It is so sad when a dog has a problem such as HD or the like.  And I think your dog is very lucky to have you as an owner.  You obviously care for him very much. I too, if I thought there was a problem with my dog, would retire him.  As I already have done with one of my dogs (retired at 6).  You are right dogs are pets first and working dogs second.  That doesn't mean I wouldn't be gutted if I had to stop working my dog but he is my pet first, my boy!  That said I still wouldn't have my dog hip scored before I did agility I haven't with the dogs I have now and can't see me doing it in the future.  Obviously if I ever wanted to breed with any of mine then I would.  I have already been asked a few times if I want to use my boy at stud, generally because when a dog gets to a high level they seem to become attractive to breed with.  My answer, NO!  He is not hip scored or eye tested and therefore will not be used.

Unfortunately there will always be people in all the "dog sports" that don't do the right thing.  Best we can do is to try to make them think and change.

slobdog

Unfortunately the mentality is that if a dog is senior or advanced it must be because they are really good but some of them are just average dogs with fantastic handlers. How many dogs do you see that have loads of potential but are just with the wrong people? Some combinations just don't match. I have a good relationship with my other dog, I know he is an arsehole and he knows I am a pratt, I call him names in the ring much to some peoples disgust but what they don't understand is that when he is screaming at me he is being very rude they just don't speak his language LOL LOL  He is very strong willed and opinionated and I have had some more experienced handlers offering to run him as they would do so much better :rolleyes: I have also had enquiries about breeding from him but he is neutered so no chance of that. and he is unregistered ao another good reason not to!! We understand each other and my pup has the same attitude and personality and he is a merle so the fun has only just started LOL LOL

Absolutely, agility is fun.  It's not a question of getting someone else to run your dog, you are having fun with your dog and that's what matters.  I am in advanced with my dog and very proud to be there.  He had the potential and thankfully I kind of got better with him!  I'm nowhere near as good as he is though :-)  I also know a friend of mine has a very average dog, that when she first came out I didn't think she had the speed to get to senior, she is now 3/4 of the way to advanced!

At the end of the day some people are more competitive than others, and that's fine.  I am competitive but it doesn't mean I don't have fun.  I just wanna see dogs and handlers having fun.  I can't stand people that blame their dogs for mistakes.  You can get to the top having a laugh. 

Sounds like we both like agility for the same reasons.

Oh p.s it's a myth that merles are harder to train!  Ask Toni Dawkins!!!!

slobdog, I don't believe the stories about merles either! I think that some people haven't put the effort in with theirs and others just don't suit their handlers. My BW dog has done some really stupid things but no-one says that it is because he is BW! I have seen Toni's dogs run and I think that MInx does live up to her name but they are both lovely, well as nice as bitches can be ;-) Do you know Sharon Eldridge? Her red merle chip is a full brother to my pup and he has a lovely working attitude and lots of drive so I am feeling fairly optimistic about mine. I also have really good trainers (Andy & Helen Brown) so I know that he will get off to the best start. Deef is my first dog and he has only been doing agility for 2 years and unfortunately we started off with the wrong trainers but changed about a year ago. In the last 12months he has brought home 14 novice trophies but only one of them is a first place due to my silly mistakes. He has however beaten senior and advanced dogs in intermediate classes so I know he has the potential if I can just get my act together. I don't care if he never gets to advanced, I was told by one person recently that the reason he is so good is because he is my dog not in spite of it which made me feel really good and he is happy so that is what matters.

I wonder if this myth came about with the higher ridk of blindness and deafness associated with the colour pattern, and these more difficult dogs were actually disabled???

OK I have now asked Amanda and she said it isn't necessary to hip score and neither does Toni, Lee or Toni's mum and nor does the vet who trains with us so I am going with that. She said you would know, just as colliemad did with Kel, if something was wrong. :)

Maybe Amanda said that she doesn't do it!  And doesn't know many others that do.  Not that it isn't neccesary.  It is down to the individual to decide.  One persons opinion isn't would should or shouldn't be done.

Well yes, that's probably a better way of putting it but I trust her word completely so for my dogs I will make the decision not to hip score them. :)

slobdog you wench! :D :D :D Busted!

NER NER!!!! :-D

What d'ya reakon colliemad, should we report her to Admin for being a WUM? ;) :D

Oooh, that would be a bit naughty but then sneaking about on here is a bit naughty too I suppose, mmm will have to think about that one ;-)

There's me saying I trust every word she says and would listen to her regardless and now look, sneaking about, creeping up on ppl... Not good is it colliemad? :p

No it certainly isn't, it's very rude really wouldn't you say? ;-)

A bit yes ;), but not as rude as running around an agility course flashing at the judge. Talk about setting an example to the impressionable innocents such as myself. Actually I can't really talk because I once ran a dog while I was drunk and it was witnessed by the afore mentioned flasher so maybe I'll be quiet now. Ah, Teri would have been proud of me...:D

I heard the judge had to have counselling and that everyone thought it was an eclipse but I wasn't there so really I shouldn't comment :-D

:D :D :D ROFLMAO

I am in for one hell of a training session next time you know. It'll be all pull throughs and reverse turns and back to all the old, "tut, tut, obedience ppl.....:rolleyes:" Maybe I should get her one those plastic bum cheeks she could tie on. ;)

don't think she needs one, she bounces really well when she falls over though and I think she must like an audience cos there are always loads of people there when she does that too :-D

Ah yes, but I have never met anyone else who can work a snake while sitting on the floor. I've seen that myself on tape and it was a great move. :p