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By ceejay
Date 20.08.05 10:33 UTC

I have read all the previous topics with interest but nothing completely answers our problem with our 15 week old border collie. Our pup does nip feet and jumps to nip clothes, hands anything when she gets in that mood. We have tried making a loud ouch when she nibbles and pushing her down saying off. We then try to ignore her and walk away. However this is easier said then done. She simply ignores and keeps nipping and jumping to stop us moving away. I know this is expected from a collie but to actually get away and stop the behaviour is very difficult.
Of more concern now is her possessive behaviour when she finds anything she thinks she can eat. She growls and actually snaps. This has really upset me - we have not had this with previous dogs. My husband seems to think that it needs to be shaken out of her but I am against using any physical force. I have managed to distract her but last night she had to be picked up and carried by the scruff at arms length because she would not leave something alone.
By digger
Date 20.08.05 13:32 UTC
By moving away you are actually becoming more interesting to her, so this may well be making the problem worse. I'd be inclined to spray the affected areas of your clothing with something like Bitter Apple spray (available from many pet stores) to deter her from grabbing those areas in the first place. Also make sure you play with her with things like a tennis ball on a rope, and/or a 'ragger' type toy, so she gets a chance to fullfill these natural instincts in a positive way.
HTH
Re the other behaviour, try to think dog and ensure that things she can want are out of her reach. I'd use reward based methods to teach her to enjoy "give" and "bring" so that you can get articles from her easily (you may need to attend a good class for this, try www.apdt.co.uk for one near you) and in the meantime, don't get too over concerned about things she has (to be honest, if you have left things around for her to get hold of, you can tell yourself off :P ) and if necessary sacrifice an item rather than show great concern over it - unless of course it is life threatening and even then the best method of getting her away is to distract her. Try ringing the doorbell, that often works.
It sounds as if your reactions have been making her worse in fact, it's so easily done. I did it myself when i knew not to, with my BSD pup when I was in a hurry and chased her for a sock she had taken; she learnt how very valuable to me that sock was. It took many months but she will now bring me socks and give them up,help me empty the washing machine and is fine about them, but due to my mistake she could have become very possessive over them! If you have got to the stage where you are holding her by the scruff at arm's length, to get her away, is in fact confrontational and merely convinces her she is right in that the article is very important; I would say review what you have been doing as she will get worse over this very quickly if you do not.
You may also want to consider leaving a house line on her in the house, this may help to move her, using this and perhaps food as a lure/reward for moving, but remember to always take it off if you are out or she may get hurt.
Another thing to consider is using childgates (a godsend) or crate training so that there are times you can all have a bit of a break.
I'd highly recommend getting hold of Carol Price's book "Understanding the border collie" as there is so much invaluable info in there; it's not expensive and takes owners through puppyhood, adolescence and beyond :)
Lindsay
x
By ceejay
Date 20.08.05 16:41 UTC

Thanks it was actually my fault that the growling and biting arose. I had taken her out last thing and she wanted the food I had put out for the hedgehog. I threw it away resulting in her ferreting around looking for tiny pieces in the grass. I wanted to go to bed - I had already stood for ages waiting for her to 'be quick'. It is food that makes her aggressive more than objects. She had my ice cream tub down at the beach today - to lick out my husband thought. However she carried her trophy high and barked(with her mouth full) at everyone who was near and appeared a threat. As soon as she dropped it and I whisked it out of sight she was a sweet little puppy again. She does play with her ragger and other toys - retrieving well but not letting go - should I play tug of war with her or not? Such a lot of questions. I have a number of books but they give conflicting advice.
By digger
Date 20.08.05 17:16 UTC
If she's not agressive with objects, try getting her to retrieve a tennis ball on a rope, and turn this into a tuggy game.
Do you practise any kind of training to get her to give food up?
By ceejay
Date 20.08.05 18:49 UTC

No. I do not try to take her food dish away from her - that is not the thing to do from what I have read. However I had to get her to release a piece of plastic that she had grabbed. She growled and snapped that time. I had tried to open her jaws to get her to give although she had not really learnt that. I succeeded in distracting her from the plastic with another noisy toy. That rewarded her behaviour didn't it! But I was thinking of her safety in swallowing the plastic at the time. She has started giving me her ragger on retrieval today in exchange for a treat. But to relinquish something that she considers food - how can I train her to do that when she is quite vicious about it?
I must add that she seems ravenous all the time and she is really thin. However I am giving her more than recommended and she is well wormed. Vet didn't seem too concerned. Her patches of adult coat are glossy and in everyway she seems healthy and bouncing.
By digger
Date 20.08.05 19:33 UTC
Distraction is often a very succesful way of defusing such a situation - but the fact that you'd already tried to confront her, to which she's responded (not unsurprisingly) with agression because she believed you valued the object as much as she did, means yes, she may now have learnt that in confrontational situations that using agression can work. She may even have experienced some discomfort from her loosening 'baby' or milk teeth which was agrevated by being grabbed :(
I'd work on lesser value object (like the ragger) to start with, and use a 'give' command (as opposed to 'leave' which will be a different thing). Praise her a lot and make sure she gets a high value (to her) reward when she obliges, maybe even give her a 'jackpot' of rewards as she gets really good, as she gets to this stage don't reward all the time - this will make her work harder ;)
With food, I'd work on a leave command as follows. Hold a low value treat in your finger tips (a piece of plain biscuit or similar) and show it to her. At the same time have a higher value treat in the other hand behind your back. As she goes to grab the first treat take it away quickly (without saying anything at this stage) - she may well lunge for your hand again as it disappears - you may wish to wear some stout leather gloves ;) The fact that you've withdrawn the treat will puzzle her, when she withdraws, re present the treat again, and repeat the withdrawal each time she goes for it. Sooner or later she will give up lunging and trying to snatch - at this point praise her, and produce the other reward tossed on the ground with the command 'go on then'. Start again with the low value treat, using the command 'leave' as she sits back, and reward again if she doesn't lunge. Most dogs pick the idea up very quickly.
PS - how many meals a day is she getting at the moment?
By ceejay
Date 21.08.05 09:07 UTC

Thanks for that really comprehensive advice - it is really appreciated. I was giving her 3 meals a day. I have just changed to 2 larger ones hoping that she will feel more satisfied after each. I changed her to Burns minibites a couple of weeks after getting her.

I would say she needs to stay on 3 meals as most pups will only have judt dropped to 3 from four meals prior to 13 weeks. In fact if food is an issue I would give her four meals a day. If the food comes more often it isn't going to be so rare that it needs to be gurded and seyh may not be as hungry when she gets it.
By digger
Date 21.08.05 11:41 UTC
That's exactley what I was thinking two Brainless, only you beat me to it ;)
By ceejay
Date 21.08.05 13:42 UTC

When I bought the puppy from the farm at 9 weeks she had been in a pen with her litter mates - she was the first to go. The seller (a shepherd with 7 working dogs) said that I should give her 2 feeds a day. However he seemed to keep a big bowl in the pen that the puppies just seemed to help themselves too. I thought that 2 feeds a day was too soon for one so young so I started giving her 3. I will get her weighed again next week to see what her next worming dose should be. That is a helpful guide for her food.
By ceejay
Date 20.08.05 18:51 UTC

Went on line and ordered the book that you recommended. Thanks lindsay
I'm sure you'll find it helpful :)
I'd agree with Digger about the distraction being very useful and with her training advice.
Don't worry about "rewarding" the pup for the wrong thing, what the pup is more likely to learn is that it is getting rewarded for moving on to what you want.
Dogs can learn "chains" of behaviour but as long as they are doing what you want, and you train them over time, there is rarely a problem :)
Have fun!!!
Lindsay
x
I have the same problem with our 8 week pup. She grabs and nips at everything!! The cat hissed at her the other day when she was chasing him sand she ran away so whenever she nips now we hiss at her and she stops!!!!
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