I know this is a very sensitive topic for this site for legal as well as ethical reasons so I will mention no names. However a couple of nights ago on Central News (6pm) an unlicensed puppy farm was exposed by hidden camera.

The bitches and puppies (many) were shown living in dirty, indoor concrete pens and the puppy purchased by the reporters (can't remember what, Maltese, Shitz-Zhu or similar) was found to be dirty, with a skin condition and no socialisation (seemed in a state of shock).  This farm supplied pups to a wide variety of outlets including (shock horror) Harrods! The general tone of the report was more 'buyer beware' than 'poor dogs' but then we do live in a consumer society so no surprise there.

What did surprise - or rather shock - me was the end of the report which stated that, 'Since this investigation Mr. **** (owner)  has been granted a license.'  There was no mention of any improvement in the conditions or housing of the dogs.  

What on earth are the standards such people have to meet?  Are there any?  How are they enforced?  Apart from any breeding standard issues (which I know nothing about) what about the general welfare of the animals? If you are know anything about these issues please enlighten me. 
Many thanks, Linda

(I seem to remember a CD poster being harrassed by the local council which wrongly accused them of being a 'breeder'; have no fear! Just put your dogs in a concrete bunker with a bowl of water and tell them you supply the 'Top Peoples' Shop'.  Sorry, rant over.)

I saw this too, but not on Central, it was on the national 6.00pm BBC news on Monday night :(

Its a disgusting state of affairs and I think they were showing it to raise peoples awareness about buying from puppy farms.

Why the local Council in Wales granted him a licence is beyond understanding But did you hear him say to the undercover people, "trouble is, if I supply you with all of these dogs I'll have the taxman on my back". After they said that they were interested in buying several different breeds from him and going into business themselves.

I wonder if the Inland Revenue have bothered to investigate him????

The report was irresponsible. Yes, it bought this subject to the publics attention but it wasn't really hardhitting enough and didn't go into the real heartache that is bestowed upon these poor animals. :(

"Goes to put dogs in the coal bunker" ill toddle to the council now n ask them lol.
Thats awful supplying them to harrads aswel! Poor dogs and puppies.

Hi Linda, this always causes me so much anquish when breeders are found to be operating a puppy farm and supplying pet shops (in this instance Harrods, all pet shops rely upon the puppy farmers or commercial breeders licenced and unlicensed to supply them with puppies.)  Then instead of Councils prosecuting the breeder for operating a breeding establishment without a licence, they accept their application for a dog breeders licence under The Breeding and Sale of Dogs (welfare) act 1999.  When Councils are questioned on this they say that the reason they accept the application and grant a licence is because they then have the right of entry to inspect the premises. I agree they do but why not prosecute for the illegal act, puppy farming needs curbing not encouraging.
Under existing legislation the Council will only inspect the premises once a year, unless there is acomplaint.  Many premises particualary in Wales operate under very poor conditions and do not meet the criteria as specified under the Act.     

Thanks Pat.  I have never heard of that particular Act - will Google it for more info.  Given the strong feeling these establishments arouse on this board (and, I assume, other dog sites) is there any campaign one can join to support the enforcement of legal provision?  Always assuming it is adequate, which seems questionable given the current state of affairs.

Best wishes, Linda

There is a campaign that will shortly be in the papers soon, I believe that if anybody has bought dogs from these establishments who have been ill etc. this campaign requires details.  You can e-mail myself for the details if you like, although I have nothing to do with it, except I definitely support it.

Would love to but don't know how! Sorry for ignorance.

There are quite a few, puppywatch, hopeuk and puppy_alert all have concerns about puppy farming.
puppy_alert collates information from people that have purchased sick or dying puppies from pet shops and dealers. All have websites if you put the names above as written in google search engine they should bring them up. 

Thank you for help, Pat. Will get on it a.s.a.p.

If any of you have had experiences with buying from pet shops in the Fylde area, please contact me in strict confidence aswell as the above named organisations. We are also a team of campaigners collecting case histories. Ask for more info :-)

Sorry that I did not add you to the list, I was not aware of any other organisations, what are you called?
What do you do with the case histories?

What area of Wales? North/South/Mid Wales? its a vast place to just say Wales :( its like saying England what part?

There is a dogstrust campaign thing about puppy farming.. you can get car stickers saying

'stop puppy farming'     but scribbled over the f is the letter h so it says stop puppy harming.. mine is in our car so maybe if someone see's it they might realise not to get a puppy from a puppy farm.. they are pure evil :-(

South and West Wales if that is any help

Pat, I have PM'd you......also, where do you get the car stickers from??

my first pup came from a puppy farm and he died within a week after costing hundreds in vet bills. I am very interesred in this campain and would like some extra details about supporting this. Please pm me with further details, i would also be interested in the name or area of the place that has just got a licence to see if it's the same one.

Been on the dogs trust webby and cant find the stickers... where are they please?

STANN, I have PM'd you!!

For the stickers email
info@dogstrust.co.uk
and request a stop puppy h/farming sticker, add your adress and they should send opne to you. they are on the site somewhere but i cant find them.. if i do i will post back

oops actually, it's

>The full guidelines and the special car sticker are available >by emailing puppyfarming@dogstrust.org.uk or by phoning >020 7837 0006.

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/press_office/pressreleases/2005/exposedpuppyfarminginsouthwales.htm

all as one link^ sorry don't know how to do links

Hi, Just rang the number...very helpful lady!! I have requested 200 stickers to distribute in my area :-) :-)

Well done .. i hope it gets the message across to some people.. are they all free in bulk? because i think thats a very good idea

Yes, they were free AND the lady was over the moon!! I asked very sheepishly for 50...she said "i'll send you 200!!!"

Oh thats wonderfull.. i think i might do the same

Well - I happen to live in South West Wales (for 3 years) and I totally agree about the 'Puppy Farms'.
However, I think it is really important to define what this means, for everyone's benefit, so we all know what we are talking about - unfortunately the phrase has become a catchall phrase for people in West Wales who breed puppies and that is totally inaccurate.
Not everyone in West Wales who breeds dogs is a Puppy Farmer and it is a bit annoying when we are just tarred with the same brush as the farmers who couldn't care`less about their breeding bitches, the state they are in or where the pups end up.  Yes we need to stamp this out, absolutely - apart from the obvious cruelty to the animals, the rest of us who love our dogs, have all the health checks, who only occasionally breed from them and would never dream of selling pups to a dealer, are getting a rough time over this too.  Even the ex-mayor stated that no-one should buy a puppy from West Wales which is a completely disgraceful comment to make and actually does nothing to help the situation.  Perhaps we should stop the likes of Harrods & other stores selling puppies in this way?
Perhaps the councils should be much more concerned with what goes on 'in their backyard' and enforce the legislation?
Perhaps all councils should have the same criteria for obtaining a licence & publicise it so that everyone is aware of what is required and what the penalties are for not taking notice?
Perhaps the Vets in the area have a part to play?
Perhaps local people who know this is going on and where, should report what they know and certainly anyone who buys a sick puppy should take action.
We all know people to whom this has happened and it is good to raise the profile of this nasty business so it is stamped out - if there is no money in it, it won't carry on Things will only be resolved by a combined attack from all interested parties (the particular example made will unfortunately drift out of people's memories) but lets not hang everyone who lives in the area out to dry as we risk alienating a good source of support!
No doubt I will have heaps of approbation poured on my head for this, but I am an 'incomer' to the area and that's how I see things - so be it!

Hi Moonshine,
I don't think any campaign on this topic should be defined by geography or any other factor other than the conditions the bitches and pups are kept in and the controls around their being sold on.

You make a good point about stopping retail outlets selling dogs and someone else further up the thread said, the only sources should be proper breeders (as a mongrel lover I'll let other people define that term) and rescue centres.  Is there a problem with that?  Could it be made illegal to charge for the products of accidental or 'amateur' matings?  Is that too Draconian or simply unenforceable?

I think it would be good to define it properly as well, because it's also very difficult if you are living in the area and want to buy a pup, to know exactly what you should be avoiding.

I've bought my little pup via word of mouth, but I'm not certain if this breeder would be termed ok or not by others.  If anyone asks where I got him from, as soon as I say not far from Camarthen, they just go Hmmmmm....

I didn't want a show dog, I wanted a pet.  After listening to someone from the breed club describe them in a sentence as 'showing your stuff' it put me right off getting a pup from someone she recommended.  I don't regard my pets as 'stuff' I regard them as family members.  The person I bought my pup from, had the mother dog and another dog of the same breed as pets (both bitches), as well as 2 mongrels.  My pup was one of his mothers second litter.  The father was not owned by this breeder.  My pup is registered with the KC and had been wormed etc. but the breeder hadn't done the eye checks.  I met the mother ... she had a wonderful temperament, was covered in mud from where she'd just come in from the field with the horses, her pups were in a clean stable, but we took them into the house and the mother was clearly used to being in the house as well.  The mother was happy for us to pet her, and her pups, and she was clearly happy to be around them as well, giving them all little licks etc. No kennels, no cages, just well socialised dogs but not breeding to improve any lines or any other 'worthy' reasons, just breeding because she enjoys it and makes a little money too. 

I would be interested to know how others regard this sort of 'breeder'.  Thanks.

I think this explains it very well
http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm

Thanks for posting this link, it's the sort of thing I was looking for. 

>but the breeder hadn't done the eye checks

>not breeding to improve any lines or any other 'worthy' reasons, just breeding because she enjoys it and makes a little money too. 

>I would be interested to know how others regard this sort of 'breeder'.

I would have no regard for her at all"!!!! she has all the qualities of a backyard breeder, one step down from being a puppy farmer. :(

Can you try and define for me ....

Puppy Farmer

Backyard Breeder

Reputable Breeder

And what would you call the person who breeds for the first time from her home because she wants to improve the breed?  Is that a backyard breeder who can if she does well, end up being regarded as a reuptable breeder?  I don't mean to sound provocative, I'm just wondering where the line is drawn between acceptable and not acceptable by the majority of people.  Thx.

I would add Hobby breeder and Commercial breeder to that list.

I would say from your example they would be classed as a Hobby breeder providing they have had all the relevent health tests done :)

Its not the breeding that is the hobby, it is showing/working the dogs. To breed from a dog or bitch to improve the lines and the standard then becomes part of this, but not always.  Many show people never breed and prefer to run with other breeders dogs. When starting out showing as a hobby, this is where we all began. It takes many many years to really understand the implication of genetics and good breeding and a good mentor is required. Even Larger show/working kennels can still be classed as hobby breeders, the size of the stock and kennels is only relevant to possibly 40+ years of breeding to improve and subsequently maintain the standard. 

So please do not confuse breeding as a hobby with hobby breeders. Very different in my eyes!!!

Hold on - I assumed that if someone was performing a mating to improve the breed they would have either shown or worked their dogs to get an indication of their bitches quality and suitability to be bred from. This is how they would have known they were improving the breed. I certainly wouldn't class people who have no knowledge of the breed as hobby breeders. In my mind a hobby breeder is someone who goes to shows or works their dogs, does not produce many litters but who do it for the benefit of the breed. They own dogs that are good examples and have all the relevent health tests done (ie hips/eyes etc) which have good results.

This is my idea of a hobby breeder.

Thats what I said :)  sorry if it just didnt come across that way... I class myself as a hobby breeder, I show, and I breed to improve my stock (sorry for that word) . I only breed when I wish to campaign a new pup in the showring. hope that clarifies my previous post a little :)

>> I show, and I breed to improve my stock (sorry for that word) . I only breed when I wish to campaign a new pup in the showring.

Yes - this is the exact type of person I would class as a hobby breeder :) Sorry - I had made assumptions based on the fact they were doing the mating to improve the breed and realised by your last comment that I should probably have made my assumptions clear :)

A first time breeder should be working with an expereinced mentor.  Breeding requires expereince and knowledge and no litter should be bred without this, if not the breeders own then their mentors.

I had figuratively speaking both my bitches breeders and her sires owner see me through my first steps as a breeder.  I was quite humbled two years ago when I was there to advise and give practical help with one of my puppy buyers first steps as a breeder (after 13 1/2 years of breed ownership I still think of myself as a novice), I and the owner of the sire were there every step guiding her, but she had also studied and developed and eye for what she wanted.

Another factor to this is, when breeding for the 1st time, you are using a line that another good breeder has spent many years developing and nurturing.  I had a bitch (still have) which I was planning to use for the 1st time.  I knew the dogs I wanted to choose from but still felt that I should, and did go back to the bitches breeder for her input. Although it would be my line and my Affix attached to the litter and any future litters, it is still her line and her reputation at stake if I got it wrong.  She was happy with my choices and gave me some very good reasons as to why I should use one particular stud of my choice.  So many years down the line, and I still use her as my mentor :)

This k9ind of breeder even though they aren't puppy farmers as such unwittingly actually do a lot of harm to a breed. 

They do not think it matters that their one off litter has untested parents or that they aren't particularly good specimins if they are lovely natured. 

Add all the litters like this together and consider that instead with a little work they could have been litters bred to improve or maintain the breed, and their genes would be useful in keeping ahealthy typical gene pool going. 

If these pups don't turn out well then the owner is unlikely to want another of the breed, and this si how breeds can get a bad reputation which can cause their decline.

Also most of these breeders are not there for the long haul to advise new owners or to take back the pups if circumstances change, all part of being a responsible breeder.

Sorry, I don't know how to highlight certain bits. 

I do hear what you say, but I also wonder about this improving the breed thing.  So many 'breeders' seem to say it, but does it actually happen?  Have breeds improved over the years?  Or is it just an excuse to justify breeding dogs in the hope of getting a perfect show specimen, and in the course of that, producing lots of puppies that are no different to the one I've just bought?  Where do those puppies end up?  Some in loving homes I'm sure, but I bet some also end up in puppy farms or with owners that are less than devoted to them.

I understand about the eye checks and agree that they should have been done ... there was weakness there on my part because once I'd seen the puppies and their mother, I couldn't resist them, and it was something I forgot to ask. 

In terms of taking back pups if circumstances change etc. yes I agree that this is something a responsible and loving breeder would offer and that wasn't mentioned to me.  In terms of advice though, I was told to feel free to ring now or in the future.

Our breed has only been in the country since the 2nd WW & has mostly been in the hands of show breeders. I can definately say that the breed has been improved as it was in a very poor state in its native occupied country. Early examples were badly contructed and were very nervous. They are certainly far from perfect now but a hundred times better than they were. The bane of our breed is the "pet" breeder who won't be told!!! Not many of them nowadays, but we've had problems when they can't sell the puppies, haven't health tested & ended up with pups with HD & HC & temperament problems because they simply do not know which dogs to use and which to avoid. In the past these type of breeders have "offloaded" unsold pups to commercial puppy sellers & pet shops who have no knowledge (& wouldn't care anyway) of the sort of home which is suitable. Ours is a numerically small breed & any show breeder known to be selling to a commercial seller would soon be found out & summarily executed :mad .Also, the type of stud dog owner who willingly to allow their dog to be used on a pet bitch does not give the novice breeder the backup required.

Topsy in a wel bred litter the differences between show quality and Pet quality will be minute compared to the quality or lack of it in a chance bred pup supposed to be of the breed concerned.

In the numerically small breeds with litters mostly bred by knowledgeable breeders the differences between the worst examples and the best are tiny by compariosn to the differences in popular breeds like Westies and Labs where the differences are vast, and in fact very few are typical let alone quality examples.

The link I gave I think make things quite clear.