Hi All,

I think what I'm looking for is a bit of reassurance.  Our 11 week old Lab - Kiera is frustrating the hell out of me with her toilet habits, I've been really patient but this morning when I came down to a kitchen floor covered in wee and put my bare feet in it......agghhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The there was a poop on the tiles - not on the paper and then I cleaned it all up, left the door to the garden open while I went for a shower, came back down to another large poop on the tiles and not in the garden!  We seem to have this problem a lot in the mornings!!!!  I think I maybe made a mistake when we first got Kiera as I didn't teach her to wee on Newspaper, I had the week off work and I just took her straight into the garden and to be fair she usually asks to go out if we are around - even in the evening if we are all in the lounge she goes to the door - so she does know where to go..... Do you think it's just that she forgets over night?  How can I get her to see on the paper?

We've started walking her now too which is great fun, but she saves her 'business' until we get home - this is frustrating too as we want her to do it on the walk in the woods, last time I took her I stopped every couple of minutes adn asked hr to 'do jobs' - she does it almost every time at home - but nope not a drop while we are out?

Tell me this is normal and I'm expecting too much please!!!!!!!!! 

I'd also value some advice on how to get her to do it on the paper at home during the night- baring in mind we have real problems confining her to one area as she goes loopy and even when we ignore her and persevere she somehow always finds a way around the barriers and gets to where she wants to be (she's very resourceful!!).

I think the other problem is my mother in law has her during the day and I doubt she is backing us up with the reward training - but that's one battle I've given up on!

If I actaully catch Kiera doing her business in the house I tell her 'NO' and take her outside to finish off - trouble is we very rarely catch her at it.  The other thing is we have to let her go through the night without getting her up to wee, etc as my OH already works stupid hours and needs his sleep and I do a lot of motorway driving - I can't afford to be tired at the wheel.

Please help if you can?
Nx

First thing - yes, her behaviour is normal, and yes, you are expecting too much! :D

But isn't it frustrating? The thing to remember is that she's used to going outside with you - she hasn't yet made the intellectual leap that if she needs to wee she can (and is expected to) go outside on her own and do it. That will come as she matures. In the meantime, keep doing what you're doing training-wise, as you're getting results - but the more you and your OH can watch her (don't go and have a shower leaving her to her own devices, etc) and encourage her outside, the sooner the penny will drop (deliberate pun! :D)

As for not weeing when she's out - this again is perfectly normal. She's a small baby in a scary world, and she won't advertise the fact that there's a small, vulnerable, possibly tasty puppy in the area to potential predators! When she's more confident outside she'll be more relaxed about advertising her presence.

Hope this helps.

That's really helpful thank you - especially the last bit, I hadn't thought about her thinking of herself as vulnerable - that's put a whole different spin on things! :D

It's a good job we love her too much to show our frustration at the indoor 'jobs'!!! :)  At least my feet were bare when I trod in wee this morning my OH had his socks on and had to go straight out for 'walkies' hee hee hee

I agree absolutley with JeanGenie and would add that it may depend on what you are cleaning the floor with after accidents. Just because it looks and smells clean to you, does not mean that it doesnt carry a smell for little Kiera. To make sure that you have got rid of all of the smell you either need a propriatory cleaner from the pet shop such as Simple Solution or make up a solution of biological washing powder and use that to wash the area.

Keep at it you WILL get there, just need to think like a puppy ;)   

Hi,
I was having a lot of trouble with the crate i.e. poohing in it when left.
This has now resolved itself by removing the crate she hated it and not all dogs accept it. She is fine left with the others and also left to a "big grown up bed" instead of being confined.
My 10 week old goes from 10.30 till 6am without mess or pooh, but to achieve this, I have altered her feeding pattern slightly by feeding her later at night.
She goes out at 10.15 and I stay out there until she has done a pooh, god help me when it rains but it can take ages!!!!!!!
She also asks during the day but then I always give them 100% attention for the first 3 weeks to get things in order, but on the other hand they have to learn to be left on their own.
As for the peeing on the floor, what I did with my first pup who was a bit more difficult to house train, was to get the training pads (which do not work) but when she has done a wee I used to soak it up with these and then move them to nearer the door and eventually outside so that the scent was on them and make sure that the floor was free from any other smells.
I must admit I find it alot easier to house train with another dog as she follows the 1 year old around and if she pees then the pup pees so it has made my life alot easier.
  If she pees then when you go away again this is probably separation anxiety, could you not give her a treat or kong or something to occupy her while you are upstairs and give her a treat when you come down to asure her that she is not on her own.

Keep on trucking on as it is a hard slog and it will be worth it in the end.

Hi Bella

Thanks for this tip, I left her with a treat this morning and she did wait until I came back down stairs ti go out to wee!

We have a slight problem with my MIL as she is looking after our puppy for a few hours everyday but she is such a stuborn old mule she won't do it our way, she appears not to give Kiera any time out to sleep on her own, etc and that is making her clingy when she is with us at home - hence you are probably right about the SA to a degree - though we do leave her in the kitchen as soon as she is engrossed in a treat/chew/sleeping.  We've tried tackling the MIL issue on a number of fronts, food, short walks, not going up stairs, no shoes, etc, etc but it's like talking to the wall, so we are trying to find an alternative solution.  I'm planning to mailshot our estate at the weekend looking for a dog walker...............some things never work out as you plan do they?  I guess toilet training has suddenly become a back burner issue for me - the climbing up and down stairs is worrying me much much more!!

Cheers
Nx

Thanks Bluebell, we are using the bio with boiling water followed by Simple Solution and I think I'll get some white spirit as well just to be really sure!!!! :D

Being new to puppy ownership when I took her out this morning I forgot to take a poop bag adn I spent the whole walk thinking please don't do it til you get home!!  This is really funny considering I've spent the first few walks hoping she will do it!!  Thank goodness she didn't this time - I think I'll stuff a bag in all my different jacket pockets just to be sure!!  Lucky we only have 10 min walks at the moment.
Nx

Hi Nicky Im not sure about the white spirit, maybe to drink if you get really desperate ;)

You will soon find that every pocket has an assortment of dog biscuits and poo bags. You will also find that the one time she manages to squeeze out more piles than you have bags will be the time that you have an audience :0

Top tip is to tie a bag to the lead as a just in case.

White spirit or surgical spirit are both good for a final wipe over the area.
:)

Nicky nicky nicky , patience is key! One thing i would like to know is when do you feed her? Our second feeding which is the last is at 3:30 , then all out to poop atleast twice before they are in bed.

It's frustration i know! DON'T PUT DOWN PAPERS!! Let her pee on the floor , although she will probably not remember pooping on the floor the night before and won't associate your scolding with her poop from last night... take her over to all the spots she's messed in the morning and tell her NO PEE IN HOUSE! Don't push her into her own mess just bring her over so she can see. NO NO PAPERS , papers teach her to pee in the house and you don't want that! Even if your trying to save your hardwood flooring don't put down papers!

Be consistant , lab's are quick learners like my goldens are. 11 weeks is early just be consistant , gotta take the dogs out they're barking ill be back to check here later!

I cover the floor with newspaper at night, but only to facilitate cleaning up - the puppy is NEVER encouraged to use the paper at any time......

How often and how much do you feed your pups? Mine is 12 weeks old now want to know when to cut down on amount of feeds as he now wants larger meals what time should i feed his last meal at?

HI MannyG

LOL :D your post has made me laugh, point taken - more patience required!!!!!  Re the papers we've never taught her to mess on paper we just use it to facilitate the cleaning up adn stop as much pee soaking in to the grout!!!  Luckily we have a tiled floor - it must be very hard for people with carpet!!!!  Kiera has her last feed at about 6.30 in the evening and to be honest the poop is easy to clean up but the wees.......................:(

I have started showing her her mess and telling her no, so we will see how that works.  How old should she be before we start to shut the door on her crate at night - 6 months?  I'm just wondering when her badder will be mature enough so she can hold it adn not get herself all stressed out and in a mess.

Thank you, I'll chill out a bit more in future!
Nx

Mine is 10 weeks and on 3 meals a day.  My other pup last year was on 4 meals a day at this age but put on too much weight to quickly so trying a different method now, just proves that Labs are real pigs she ate everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It seems to be working alot with the house training and moving the last meal about certainly helps with the clean nights.

Recommended age for drop to three meals a day is about the 12 week mark then 2 meals a day at approx 6 months.
Mine older labs have 2 meals a day (1 split into 2) and this works very well.

Please don't do the showing her the mess and saying 'no'.  She won't make any connectionb between herself and the mess, and may even resort to eating it to remove the thing that makes you cross.  The only time you should use 'no' is if you actually catch her in the act, then a sharp 'no' can be used to distract her while you take her quickly outside to give her the chance to do the right thing.

Digger it is true most dogs will not make the connection , but i'm proud to say my latest golden has caught on and made the connection. When we did train him (took 2-3 weeks from date we brought him home for him to be reliable) sometimes for that wee second he would sneak into the hall and pee , we would find out 30 minutes later then look over to him. He would have the most terrible look on his face and would swipe his face with his paw and whine because he knew we were going to scold him (yell "NO PEE INSIDE") and he really hated that.

My recommendation is put him in the crate immiedetly , i suppose you've already done this and had an unsuspected outcome (fill me in!)
The dogs natural instinct is not to pee where they sleep (i bet you've heard this a million times) so if she does suddenly pee in her crate it may be a anxiety issue with being seperated from her mother (you). Crating usually trains your dog to give some sort of barking or whining signal to when they want to pee because if they realize , 'hey i gotta sleep here every night then i don't want to wet my bedding!' then they usually try to get your attention "I GOTTA PEE!". Crying will happen all night , even accidents in the crate and yes it is usually hard to distuingish her trying to escape whine from her pee whine.

So, tell me Manny, have you ever torn up a piece of paper infront of your dog, left the room, returned and said sternly 'Who did that?!'  I've spoken to numerous people who claim, as you do, that their dog 'understands' when all he is doing is offering appeasement behaviours to an apparently angry individual........  In the situation I have described, the dog has done nothing wrong, but still offers the 'I'm sorry' behaviours because it realises you are angry about something, and a dogs life is devoted to keeping everyone happy!

>have you ever torn up a piece of paper infront of your dog, left the room, returned and said sternly 'Who did that?!'

Yep - and got 4 very apologetic, 'guilty'-looking dogs, who obviously 'knew they'd done wrong'.

I have a 22 month old lab bitch and i remember reading about toilet training was to look for signs like sniffing around, circling etc and then i would put her out as she was in the proces of going to the loo i would say a word she would associate with it - i use "hurry".  Although, sometimes she doesn't always listen!! but asks to go out under the guise of wanting to wee etc but really wants to bark at neighbour or sniff around!  I alsdo crate trained her which is invaluable - as they feel secure, safe, and stops any furniture chewing.  web link to cheap place for crates are http://www.dogcage.net/

found these links:
http://www.perfectpaws.com/htrp.html
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/training/cratetrain.html

Also my lab still has a wee when she comes back from her walk and it did take her a while to the idea of  wee/poo when out. She has the occasional accident usually my fault but as with you rarely do i catch her.  But i was always told never to tell them off if they had already done it/  My dog always seems embarressed by the fact that she has accidently peed on the carpet as labs don't like being messing on their turf so to speak.

Just takes time and will come eventually varies from dog to dog.  I'm still trying to stop her from barking at nextdoor neighbough!!

No digger ,just no. i'm sure he knew what he did wrong...
This is actually helpful advice i don't know why you want to turn it into something wrong. Simplying telling your dog "No pee inside" in a stern mid-loud voice doesn't scare my dog if i just go up to him right now after seeing a puddle of spilled juice , i can tell by the look on his face if he knew he had an accident..
It's the bond you have with your dog , not the assumptions you make and all the behaviourist advice..

All dogs have different personalitys , accept the fact!

I work on the 'first do no harm' principle - when giving out advice over the 'net you can be sure for every one OP, there are at least 3 or 4 other people watching and reading the thread who will have very different dogs, I try and ensure whatever advice I give is appropriate to most dogs, as well as being effective and is also very unlikely to do any damage.  If I can downstairs every morning and took that approach with my rescue Springer spaniel (who incidentally is now completly housetrained), our bond, which is based on trust and has been built up over the 4 years I have had her, would be ruined. Sadly not all dogs can cope with it, and seeing as it's not a deliberate act on the dogs part, why should any blame be apportioned?

>All dogs have different personalitys , accept the fact!

Quoted for the truth!

Don't want to give you the wrong impression , i know its a fact that most dogs will not make the connection from last nights poo to a correction.. mine did that's why i offer my advice! Ta da!