The area behind the ribs is the loin (required to be short in my breed no more than about 3inches) the croup as I understand it is the pelvis, which in my breed is not sloping hardly at all and pretty short. 

I would describe the back as being from wither to the loin or the start of the pelvis.  This is where the GSDS long croup would slope, and the BSDs (my first breed) slope gently.

I agree, Brainless - the GSDs back (according to the standard) should be a straight line (not level) from the withers to the pelvis, then the long croup falls away to the root of the tail.

MM, does this help?

Sorry no that is a setter & wheres the fallway ? as I presume this is another fits all breeds diagram ?

>then the long croup falls away to the root of the tail<

Now thats new when was that added to the GSD breed standard a fallaway in GSDs

Yet another croup in the same place as the others. And another. Ooh, yet another. Yes, I'm perfectly aware that they're not GSDs. The point is, GSDs are merely dogs like all the rest, and have the same basic anatomy.

And Hurrah! A GSD site that also says the croup is the area of the pelvis, not the loin. "The appearance of the croup (the ilium at a 45 degree angle) is moderated by the sacrum, the muscles and the coat, ..."

Still no fallaway tho'

& of course the wording is >The ilium forms the skeletal structure of the croup<  not the external appearance & no fallaway to the tail mentioned so must be out of date

JG can you tell me where you found the new breed standard with the falling away to to tail mentioned ?

You must be working your search engine hard today

>Still no fallaway tho'

That's because it isn't a veterinary term. ;) I assume it's GSD-speak for the part of the GSD standard that says: "Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline." As the back (between withers and croup) has the be straight, and the croup has to curve, it's obviously a change of angle. Logically that could be described as 'falling away'. Or do I have it wrong?

>You must be working your search engine hard today

LOL! Well, somebody has to! :D Your turn to find the 'fallaway' on a technical diagram. :)

Edit: And here is another GSD site where the croup is behind the loin.

I posted a breed standard that calls for a fallaway & it obviously was not a GSD so where on all the diagrams you have posted is the fallaway. It was you that allotted the falls away to the tail to GSD not me try reading the part of the breed standard(NOT the GSD one) I posted & shown me where on your fits all diagrams it is shown

I don't need to look for the diagrams as I know what a fallaway is obviously you do not & are not aware of which breeds require one !

So please where on all your fits all diagrams is a fallaway shown ? Answer nowhere because they do NOT fit all breeds & do not fit the GSD

BTW the FCI standard is not the WUSV standard as there is not enough detail in it

> posted a breed standard that calls for a fallaway

Where? And why, on a thread about 'working shepherds'?

Dips tiny toe into water

Wouldn't it just be simpler to describe the croup as being from behind the pin bones and that the length of same and desirability of slope or otherwise varies from breed to breed?  Teri :)

who's off now to get a towel  :D

Yep except you would really have to dig on an Elkhound to find the pin bones because theri croups are so flat, but that is how I understand it exaclty.  You have my breed then the BSD adn then the GSD to illustrate the differences nicely, usually mirroered in the tail sets too :D.

Sounds about right, Teri!

(There, the water's not that bad, is it? :D)

MM, just a point, I've come across a few GSD's with dippy backs, (shaped like a horse's back) and have heard people saying that it  is correct and is a straight back.  But I see it as a fault, would you agree?

PS, you can't compare a diagram of another breed with a GSD, although in theory the anatomy is the same they also differ as to what is required by the breed standard.

>in theory the anatomy is the same

Exactly my point. :) In all breeds the croup is the same area of the back/spine - the required length, angle etc may differ, but it's always in the same place. In no breed (that I can find anyway! ;)) does it include the loin.

I think I got lost somewhere on the first page, lol.  ;-)

There's a diagram of a GSD on this site, it might help to aid understanding.

http://www.videxgsd.com/WUSV_%20Standard.htm

Sorry, I have yet to work out links.

Yes, again that states that the loins are not part of the croup.

It does JG.  To be honest I never thought they were.  I've been going back over this thread trying to get a better understanding of what was meant as I kept getting lost.  Ah well, not to worry, it's interesting though.

That was the whole problem, Spender. MM had said:

>the back is between the withers & the start of the croup(where the ribs end)

and:

>It starts on GSDs ... as starting at the end of the back behind the end of the ribs & supporting vertebrae

suggesting that the spine of the loin (ie the area between the end of the ribs and the pelvis) were part of the croup, whereas that isn't so.

As I've now decluttered enough to find it - think that its time for some

... ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
    ¸..´ ..´¨¨))
  ((¸¸..´ ...´ -:¦:-
  -:¦:-   ((  °º¤
            -:¦:- Chill-out dust everywhere!
:D :D :D

Margot

Atchoo!
Flipping dusty here ;) :D

Hi Margot - lots of waving :)  Dust, dust, dust - ahhhhhh, feeling better already (gotta remember to cut 'n paste - strictly for emergencies of course) :P

Thanks for the clarification, guys.  That sounds right to me.  I've never heard of the loin being part of the coup before.  I suppose backs in GSD's can be a very controversial subject for some.

I think the problem is that in some GSDs the croup *appears* to start at the end of the ribs as there is sometimes the impression of a hinge here and/or the slope is too pronounced giving the "skislope" topline.

Julie

This bit of the FCI standard translation says what JG and I were saying

"The back, including the loins, is straight and strongly developed yet not too long between the withers and the croup."

So the back is as we had thought to include the loins before the croup not just the rib area.  This should be straight.

The whole of the topline is meant to slope in GSDs

>Withers long, of good height and well defined, joining back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back<

>Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline<

So if the croup is ONLY >the area of spine with the ilium(The pelvis, the upper half of which (the broad "wings") is the ilium)<  how can the croup be long as having just just measured this on my GSD it's abour 5 inches !!! & she does have a long croup in GSD terms

BTW the reason for the slope of topline in GSDs is so when at the extended trot(flying gait)the dog does not fall on forehand as happens with dogs that have the euphemistic straight backs(logical really as a dog with a leg extended foreleg must be lower to the ground that when in stance. The GSD standard does not call for the "daisycutting"type movement(ie minimum lift)that many breeds do & as far as I am aware the only breed gaited at the extended trot in the UK( I for one have never seen another breed in the UK so tested )for prolonged periods is the GSD. It is at this speed the strength & type of the topline is truly revealed

I've been following this thread with interest...now must throw in my tuppence worth :-)

>>BTW the reason for the slope of topline in GSDs is so when at the extended trot(flying gait)the dog does not fall on forehand as happens with dogs that have the euphemistic straight backs(logical really as a dog with a leg extended foreleg must be lower to the ground that when in stance. The GSD standard does not call for the "daisycutting"type movement(ie minimum lift)that >>

Can't agree with this MM.  Dropping on forehand is due to an imbalance in construction.  Greater angulation in rear compared to forehand results in either high kickback behind with reduced hindthrust to expend the extra length or drop on forehand to compess the shoulder/upper arm angle, to give more extension.  Either results in wasted energy.

If we are to take your explanation of the function of sloping topline, then any dog of any breed would need this slope to display a correct flying trot.  Most breeds do in fact have normal toplines ie parallel to the ground as in the wolf and the GSD of Von Stephanitz's day.

"Daisycutting" is the most ecconomical method of movement in any breed as any lift above that which permits comfortable ground clearance results in wasted energy.

Julie

My understanding is that the structure (i.e., topline, long croup, high withers etc, etc, etc) gives the GSD a long reach in foreleg and hindleg movement.  I didn't think that was anything to do with falling on the forehand. 

The gait (in my understanding) is low to the ground and it's the structure of the dog that gives it that effortless and balanced trot. 

Hi Spender

The crucial part of the construction that governs length of stride is the degree of angulation (fore and rear).  Increased angulation gives a longer stride and the impression of low to the ground.  Less angulation = upright carriage and gait eg the Terriers.

Julie

Hi Julie,

It's interesting.  The GSD back is very straight and the sloping top line front to back really stands out in true German lines. Not the type of back I've seen in other breeds to be honest. 

I wonder if MM's comment about euphemistic straight backs somehow calls for a need for the sloping top line.  Don't know about the forehand tho, anyone any ideas?  I might ask some German breeders perhaps.

The standard does call for a slightly sloping topline but in keeping with most breed distinguishing features (of any breed), this has been taken to extreme for the showring on the premise that, if a little is good then more must be better, and this has been taken even further in the GSDs of the USA. 

If some judges are interpreting constructional terminolgy to mean that the croup starts at the end of the ribs and should curve downwards from that point, then I can see why there are roached backs and skislope toplines winning in the showring. 

Most breeds do have a straight back without any slope in topline and this is normal, functional construction for any canine including the wolf which is a long distance trotter par excellence.  The longish stride of the wolf is attained not by excessive angulation but normal, moderate angulation with proportionally long legs.

Not sure what you mean about the forehand?

Julie

I agree about the roached backs Julie, don't like it at all.  But I do think that the GSD back is different than other breeds.  They have very high withers and the top line blends into the back, there is no dip in the back at all.  I have a GSD from German show lines.

You usually get a slight dip after the withers in the back of some other breeds.  I was just wondering what the mechanical aim of the sloping top line in the GSD was about and thinking about MM's comments about the forehand.  Mmmmm....

I don't believe there is any functional advantage to the sloping topline, it just looks impressive in the ring and maybe contributes to hindthrust by allowing the hindlegs to reach further under body, all contributing to the spectacular gait of the Shepherd. But lets not kid ourselves that this is anything other than a product of selection for showring traits where movement is all important.  If this gait was functional for the original purpose (or any other purpose bar the showring) then we would see this in the wolf and other landrace shepherding breeds. Form-follows-function.

And yes, if the dog was unbalanced in angulation, a sloping topline could reduce the effects of dropping on forehand but I have seen Shepherds who have well sloping topline in stance only to fall badly on forehand in movement.  Breeds of normal construction do achieve TRAD movement without the need of a sloping topline.

The dip behind withers does sometimes occur in the GSD.  I have had dogs of German bloodlines with this.

Julie

Thanks for your comments Julie.  That makes a lot of sense.  Certainly helped me get a better understanding.  I have a bitch that dips too.  It's interesting, and something I never really thought about before to be honest.  Never questioned why the GSD had a sloping top line as it wasn't so pronounced decades ago and what affect it has on the dogs working abilities.  I really appreciate your time, thanks again. 

You're welcome :-)

So am I right in thinking that, according to the GSD standard, if you take a photo of a GSD and draw a line with a ruler from the withers to the start of the croup (the ilium/pin bones) the topline should follow the line that's been drawn? Curving neither above nor below? And that (according to the standard) it shouldn't be parallel to the ground?

Well yes, but remember that the back is not a rigid structure and dogs stood for photos are often posed in a way to enhance the slope which then arches the back.  The slope should only be slight but that's not what we see in the ring or photos.

Julie

I would have thought that most handlers would want the dogs presented in such a way as to make them more closely fit the standard! But all breeds have their foibles.

So where is the fallaway on your fits all diagram ????? I can't see it anywhere so your fits all diagram doesn't fit all does it or maybe you can see what I cannot

Where is the fallaway in the standard?

LOL Yvonne - was wondering when you'd spot that ;)  Well done but that wouldn't be a winning, wiley black with a red or two behind it by chance???  :D

Ummmm- well maybe one or two  - and a good grey thrown in too. ;)

Yvonne

Hi Guest,
Whereabouts are you?  I know a couple of breeders up in the North of Scotland who don't breed the "roachbacks" (I have 2 straight backed Sheps myself).
If you want to e-mail me:-  cd@torranvell.demon.co.uk, I can send you a link.

Sarah.

P.S. I can also recommend the Belgians (any of the types) for working!

.... but remember they are  not like a GSD or collie to train :P ;)

and may to some appear overly sensitive or "stubborn" !

Lindsay
x

I always thought that the GSD breed standard was slightly sloping from front to back. 

I never had a problem getting a good strong working Shep with a brain from show lines in the UK