I'm sure this debate will continue as there are so many different opinions to be had BUT although it is technically correct to say that dogs live by 'natural' (canine) laws in our society they HAVE to live within our laws and that does mean that dogs have to be under control in a public place.

There are also laws controlling how we as people relate and respond to each other but even they cannot dictate the laws of personal space.  We all know that in a crowded tube, lift or shop we expect and accept people being in very close proximity to us but if we were walking along a relatively deserted street and someone deliberately chose to walk right next to us we would feel threatened by their presence.

We have brought dogs into our society and laws that govern how we keep dogs have altered their natural lifestyle.  Due to this artificial evolution surely it is not hard to appreciate that dogs no longer meet and greet as they would in the wild and some dogs take great exception to their space being intruded upon by others.

In addition, IMO owners who allow their off-lead dog to run up to on-lead dogs are both ignorant and ill mannered.  I have posted on here before of the time I took my young dog out for an early morning quiet walk on-lead following his surgery.  As we walked along I spotted 2 off-lead Rotties coming towards us.  I had a few minutes earlier met a man whose 12 year old terrier bitch was hurt by these two dogs.  I immediately took another path that went off at a tangent to avoid them.  The dogs spotted us and ran after us.  Their owners called them back with no response.  These dogs barged mine over, rolled him into brambles and jumped all over him.  If it wasn't for two men nearby I dread to think what might have happened.  The owners, when they finally caught up had the gall to say 'they're only playing, they always do that'!  And still they let their 'little darlings' off lead!!  Rotties can be extremely sound sensitive, my dog was squealing in pain and fright, that could have been enough for them to attack and kill him.  Did these owners know this?  The elderly terrier could have had a bad heart.  Did the Rottie owners know this?  They obviously did not give a damn about anyone else.  Surely it is common sense - if you can't control your dog you don't let it off lead!

Yes, everyone should have peace to walk but are you saying, Spender, that you would be comfortable with the idea that you had a dog capable of biting a foolish, perhaps young, ill trained dog and could comfortable walk away from an injured dog, shrug your shoulders and say "well, it was the dogs/owners silly fault"?  I know I couldn't.  In a perfect world dodgy dogs would never be approached but there will always be poorly trained, yes even illmannered dogs about but also in a perfect world we would not have poorly socialised or even ill tempered dogs.

A few years ago i was out walking my mothers rescue crossbreed, 'Alfie' who had a terrible fear aggression problem with other dogs. We had been attending specialised classes for many weeks to try and overcome his problem, and he was beginning to make great progress. Alfie always wore a mikki muzzle in public, just in case he slipped his lead. A teenage guy was walking some distance away with his staffie, ( by the way i have nothing against staffies in general, i think they are great dogs), which bolted towards us, and started to run rings around us. The guy just kept on walking, even though Alfie was screaming at the other dog to get lost, which was his way of scaring them off. After surrounding us for 5 or so minutes the staffy went for it, and Alfie had no chance of defending himself, so i had no choice to put the boot in. It was a last resort as i could have been injured myself, but the owner just could'nt care less. It was only when i shouted and swore at him to get his dog under control that he slowly came over and called his dog off. To my horror, he then picked up the staff by the collar really roughly and 'slung' him over his shoulder.....what an idiot. I then shouted not to treat his dog like that as it wasn't the dogs fault...he should have had it under control. Anyhoo, Alfie was set back tremendously after this attack. He was on lead and muzzled, he had no chance. We couldn't keep in indoors, he needed exercise like any other dog. People should have their dogs under control when another is on lead....it's common sense.

The other dog should have been on a lead anyway Caz I'm certainly not saying anyone should take precautions with their dog to enable other nasty dogs to have free run of the the world ;), however if it was not a nasty dog and had merely attempted a greeting with your Mother's dog your taking the precaution of using a muzzle meant no physical harm would have come to either other than a bit of unfortunate stress to yours.  At least you know your Mothers dog never had the chance to injure a harmless but unruly dog and clearly that was important to you :)

I had a rescue dog that was capable of biting another dog, humans too, Isabel.  We rehab'd her very successfully.  However, ANY dog can be capable of biting.  ANY dog. And I mean that.  Never say 'never' with a dog. 

>but are you saying, Spender, that you would be comfortable with the idea that you had a dog capable of biting a foolish, perhaps young, ill trained dog and could comfortable walk away from an injured dog, shrug your shoulders and say "well, it was the dogs/owners silly fault"? 

No, I would not Isabel, not at all.  Might give the owner a lecture though.  I got bitten myself when separating 2 GSD's, I have a nice scar on my left hand.  An off lead GSD attacked my on lead GSD and my hand was in the wrong place.  Both dogs were fine, as for my hand, ah well, my own fault, such as life. And that was the end of it.

No, it's not a perfect world Isabel, but we are supposed to be the intelligent ones.  Dogs are dogs and they do dog things.  We are humans and know that it is not acceptable to attack each other, dogs don't.  They act on the flight or fight response, act first, think later or maybe not at all and still have the prey drive to a more or lesser degree depending on the dog.

>but we are supposed to be the intelligent ones.  Dogs are dogs and they do dog things

Exactly. If you know your dog is capable of biting take the initiative and put a muzzle on.
Sure any dog could bite but when your dog has never shown any sign of doing so I think it reasonable to assume all's well and continue socialising or trying not to bother folk as appropriate to me, and I think to a lot of people, that is what dog ownership is all about but we are talking here about what poeple should do when they know theirs is antisocial and will bite, even when the approaching dog has done nothing more than attempt a meeting.

>but we are supposed to be the intelligent ones.  Dogs are dogs and they do dog things

>Exactly. If you know your dog is capable of biting take the initiative and put a muzzle on.

But Isabel, this is going round in circles. :-D  If your dog is capable of biting another who enters into his space, you have on a lead and muzzled, so how does he protect himself if another dog off lead attacks him?  You've already agreed it's not fair. 

Unruly or cheeky dogs in most cases will read the unwelcome signals of the on lead dog and scamper away anyhow.

It's simple, put your dog on a lead when he approaches another is a close situation.  Practice responsible dog ownership and you can't go wrong.  If the owner is happy for your dog to play with theirs and both dogs greet each other happily then fine.  

Guess I have started that debate then :)
Well I think you have all given my friend lots to think about, not sure which side of it i'm on thought, as I can see all your points of view. Having had my male boxer, Bruce attacked quite a few times I really think people should put their dogs on a lead when they see another, but sometimes this isn't even enough. Not so long ago I was walking Bruce down a small bridleway when I saw another dog (on lead) coming down the path, I stood to oneside with Bruce to allow the other dog to pass, I have come to the conclussion that he isn't much liked my alot of dogs :)  so I try to keep him out of the way of other dogs unless we know them, but as this dog and owner got close, the dog jumped to the side, pulled its owner and started trying to attack him. Now in my opinion this dog was not under controll even thought it was on a lead.
Now I try and walk him where I know they won't be alot of other dogs or there is enough space for us to go in a differnt direction if we do see another dog. The only dogs he does come into contact with are friends dogs that I know are ok with him and sometimes walk with us.
Although Bruce would now defend himself and me if he really had to, I do everything I can not to put him in a situation where he would have to.

>Now I try and walk him where I know they won't be alot of other dogs or there is enough space for us to go in a differnt direction if we do see another dog. The only dogs he does come into contact with are friends dogs that I know are ok with him and sometimes walk with us.
>Although Bruce would now defend himself and me if he really had to, I do everything I can not to put him in a situation where he would have to.

That seems a very sensible compromise.
:)

I took my 3 dogs out last night and was approached by a man with a dog and asked me if I'd let them off lead to have a play.  As they were all happily sniffing each other!

I told him that I don't let them off lead when there were lots of dog and people in the park "just incase"
He couldn't really phantom why I would hesitiate to let them off, when out of no where a GSD came running over and MY eldest had a snarling, splitting and growing match with him!!!

The man I was speaking too, let out a sigh of relief! and exclaimed, "well there's a lesson learnt that could have ended in tears, good job you've got some sense girl" :D

Better to be safe than sorry!

Thanks Jeangenie :)
Better to be safe than sorry!  How right is that Blondiflops :)
I just worry about mine getting hurt, another dog getting hurt, me been bit :) (i'm a big wimp) or a child getting hurt in the process of a dog fight so I do everything possible not to be in a situation like that. Sometimes that means going way out of our way, but the dogs don't mind the extra walkie time :)

Unfortunatley have to take mine out either realy early in the mornings when there arent any other dogs around or too places which are relativly quiet.

As someone else said, if I see another dog off lead I will walk in te opposite direction, its not much fun but dogs are so unpredictable...

Its hard to know who your dog is going to get along with so its best to be prepared for the worst.
MY boy played happily with another Staffie boy yet was a lead away from a fight with a GSD...

for Isabel.I hope we never meet as your dog will be bitten and I will walk away. Maybe not to happy but I will walk away.
I would also like to say that I come across this situation on a daily basis. I am now at the point where if I see a larger dog than mine that appears to be approaching off lead in an aggressive or dominant manner likely to cause a fight regardless of which dog starts the fighting first I am considering letting both mine off the lead to protect each other. I have spent 1200 pounds fixing my dogs leg as many people here will remember after the GSD attack. I was fined 100 pounds for kicking the dog to break up the fight. My dog cost me 350 pounds to buy. so including other bills etc I have invested £2000 in one dog and I am not going to be in that position. I can tell you the law on dogs so dont make it up I have it on my coffee table at all times. I walk my dog under the terms of the law. Its others who dont.
I am not having a personal attack on Isabel but her thinking sounds faulty and extremely selfish

Mr Murph- If you let yours off their leads in the situation you have described, before your dogs have been attacked, would that be within the law? Just wondered as someone on here said that dogs MUST be under controll at all times, if you let yours off their leads to fight wouldn't that be classed as not under controll?
Not having a go, just wondered what is okay within the eyes of the law. Can see where your coming from as mine have been attacked alot of times, and needed treatment from a vet due to this, but I would still try and keep them out of a situation where they would have no other option than to fight back.

First off I would lie and say they slipped their leads in the comotion or that I thought the dog was coming to play and I let them off to play and this was really out of character for them. It was the other dog that started it. No point telling the truth as I have found to my cost. Also dogs can be allowed off the lead as long as they dont represent a danger to the public. On or near a road is the guide lines but what terms being "near" a road. The law is quite vague with no guidelines on dogs having a go at each other while out  with their owners. ie the GSD that attacked my dog was termed to be okay as it wasnt near a public road. It was in a swing park. The owner got a not guilty at court for having a dog out of control. I was fined £100 for breach of the peace for kicking the dog. This was a full grown GSD attacking a 5 month old pup that was running away from it.
Result is no GSD is safe from my dog now if he could get one he would kill it.
I dont really care about the law in this country as anyone that thinks its okay is a fool.
I have manners and respect and try to do what is right and I treat people as they treat me.
If my dog was off the lead and attacked another dog in an unprovoked attack I would not walk away. I would pay the vet bills and anything I could do.
My dog was attacked by two fox terriers with a chinese woman.(off the lead) not mine. My dog had thrown the smallest away and had the bigger one on its back and was choking it and all this silly woman could do was shout buiscuts as a form of dog control. Her dog was nearly a buiscut. As usual I broke it up I got bit etc etc. Another was a dalmation that appeared from nowhere and attacked my dog. again my dog was doing the winning (they dont tend to lose) I broke up the fight got bit and a mouthful of abuse about how I shouldnt be allowed a dog.
Law is about interpretation so read and have your interpretations ready for court. Not the police. Do not answer any questions asked by police. Any good lawyer will tell you to make no comment. Its what all police officers that get chargerd with anything say. if you say anything you hve admitted it was your dog and you. They tried to take away the right to silence however if you tell them your solicitor advised you to make no comment then you still have the right to silence.
I am like this as the lady with the pedigree or mongrel will always be beleived before the 6 foot guy with the two bull terriers. Due to stereo typing by the public and authorities.

Also what part of unable to defend itself with a muzzle on dont you understand Isabel.
I f the whole country guarantees that they will keep their dogs on a lead when I am out with mine I will put a muzzle on mine. This makes as much sense and is just as selfish an attitude.
If people are entitled to let there dogs of the lead then I am entitled not to muzzle mine . Especially as I dont let him off the lead.
If a dog starts to approach me and the owner cant get the dog to recall then it should not be off the lead. Just like mine. If they can get it to recall then they have no need to have it on the lead.
Funny thing is this only seems to be a major problem in citys as in the country people tend to understand animals needs and instincts a little more. I know there are loads of city folks with dogs who do understand. Sad fact is that most dont and keep passing human attributes on to dogs.
Dogs are pack animals and as such anything from outside the pack is a threat.
My dog probably senses my own apprehension at other loose dogs and this wont help the situation.
My apprehension is fueled by the actions of irresponsible dog owners. By that I mean anyone who allows there dog to run up to two ISBTS that are on leads.
Any7one who thinks there dog should be allowed to do this is either off their tiny mind or just ignorant to others. Either way they are not responsible dog owners as they are putting their own dog at risk and if we had less irresponsible dog owners I would be able to own my first choice of dog (APBT)which is less likely to fight than my present breed. ISBT But my present breed is deemed legal and the other isnt due to the faulty thinking of some.
When will people realise that just as some people like slow cars and some like fast bikes. Its the same with dogs. I would never have a KC dog breed other than a staff. Not because I think there is anything wrong with them. I dont particularly like them. Im into staffs ISBT and APBTs and just as you can choose your type of dog or car then so can I. I dont think anyone has the right to say what kind of dogs we own. The law should be tougher on who owns what. You would probably find that if an IQ test was required for dogs then there would be far less dog owners around.
Public liability insurance and mandatory training and testing for a licence to own the type of dog you want would also get rid of a lot of problems as moast are caused by daftys.

Thought I would add that the GSD in the swing park is owned by a diplomat its attacked special needs kids joggers pensioners and dogs.
It was me who called the police and was charged. I fought with the police for months to have these people charged I put posters round the town for witnesses and anyone who had been attacked by this dog to come forward. I got a total of 7 people that had complained to the police about this dog and nothing was done. Armed with this off I went to the police station to ask why. I was charged with breach of the peace for putting posters up in the town as it could cause problems. I was threatened with so called gangsters from out of town (didnt they get a shock) and eventually they charged the diplomats daughter as its her dog. She got a not guilty. Still has the dog. I was going to throw rat poisen meat over their wall and kill it myself but Im not that type off guy.
Underhanded mthods were used to get me charged and them off. I will leave the orginisation of secrets out of it ??????

Having never owned, and never intending to own an aggresive dog I suppose I see the side of all the owners allowing their dogs the wonderfull freedom of meeting and greeting and generally rubbing along together perhaps you could place your imagination in that sphere briefly,   If I found, by some failure to socialise or dreadfull incident that I had an aggresive dog on my hands I would not hesitate to muzzle it so the rest of the dog owning public could carry on in the same fashion.  As you have advocated in more than one post that lying is an appropriate way of achieving your ends and getting things your way you will forgive me if I take your difficulties with this other dog and the law with a pinch of salt ;)

Why would my dog be biten?  My dog does not approach strange dogs unless I allow her to, even then she is not that bothered, but if she did the fact that you don't care a hoot if a perfectly harmless dog gets hurt suggests to me that you have not identified the selfish one very acurately. Nor does it suprise me that you would walk away as someone that advocates lying rather than taking full responsibility for the actions of their dog.

I genarally find most bullys get on with each other. There is of course always the exception.

I used to turn and walk the other way until I got fed up not being able to go anywhere. Now I just walk on and if a dog stays close enough to fight then so be it. My two dont lose anymore. Since the attack my male has always been a bit nervous. That was until he reached about 3 then realised he doesnt have to be nervous as he is capable now. So now at the least little sign of aggression he gos the full monty. No barking or growling he just cholks them.
This isnt to bad as it doesnt result in a lot of damage to the other dog. What happens though is I separate them and the other dog bites me. While the owner watches.
I am just fed up and dont realy care about people who dont realy care about others. Like for like tit for tat etc etc all spring to mind. I dont enjoy it and its quite upsetting sometimes but they arent my dogs so I fail to see what I can do

>so how does he protect himself if another dog off lead attacks him? 

You speak in another post of risk assessment, well you would have a bit of a job convincing me that this is a significant risk :) as I say in 30 years I have only met 2 aggressive dogs running free but many thousands of harmless ones but not really under their owners strict control so the risk of attack seems very small to me in proportion to the danger of an aggressive on lead dog doing damage to an unwise and uncontrolled but otherwise harmless dog, beside which a muzzle would perhaps provide a spur to others to make an effort to round up their dog before the unwelcome encounter happens and after all what harm does wearing an appropriate, comfortable muzzle do.  There is no shame to it whereas I would be very ashamed to tell lies to avoid taking responsibility for an injury and I don't see it can get you into trouble for admitting you fear your dog is capable of biting when there is no chance they are going to get the chance to :)

You are very lucky having met only 2 aggressive dogs in 30 years, Isabel; it's not like that for some of us.  I've met loads.  Not so many lately and I do notice that more and more people are putting their dog on lead when they approach another dog in our area.  I suppose it depends on where you live, how many dogs are in your area, how many you come across on a day to day basis and what the general feeling is about risk etc.

Quite simply, why should an owner muzzle his dog when he's on lead - when another allows his off lead and the off lead dog is allowed to pester the on lead dog?  

I've known dogs that are not aggressive, Isabel, big softies and yet when they meet one particular dog, they go off on one.  I known people that have had a dog for over 10 years and they stand in total disbelief when their dog takes a particular dislike for another.  And the most common saying is 'well, he's never done that before"  And that's not to mention the current climate for personal injury claims.  

It can only take once. 

>I suppose it depends on where you live, how many dogs are in your area, how many you come across on a day to day basis and what the general feeling is about risk etc.

I think that's probably very true. Where we are there are many people who routinely walk their dogs in the same area the dogs meet and greet and the owners chat and move off either together or separately, sometimes gathering quite a motley collection (upwards of a dozen sometimes!) of dogs from terrier crosses to great danes, and all off lead. Yes, sometimes one takes a scunner to another, but that's life - we can't all like everybody all the time!
:)

Same here we meet at least 20 dogs on an average walk in the country parks here. 

I too love it when we ahve a dozen or so dogs of different types and aes either playing or mooshcing along companionbly or keeping hteir own counsel if that is their preference, with nery a cross word. 

I have noticed if the owners are relaxed about it then the dogs are too.

I didn't say I had only met 2 aggressive dogs, in the past 30 years I have lived just about every corner of the British Isles from Mousehole to Peterhead and met many aggressive dogs (and many an aggressive owner, isn't it remarkable how the two often go together ;)) and yes some areas have a bigger proportion of them, but most accept their responsibilities hence in 30 years I have only had 2 incidents with aggressive dogs off the lead.  So I think the idea an aggressive dog should be free to defend itself against this other one in a thousand, free running aggressive dog even if it puts innocent dogs at risk just does not wash with me.

>Quite simply, why should an owner muzzle his dog when he's on lead - when another allows his off lead and the off lead dog is allowed to pester the on lead dog?  

Yes, we are going round in circles :)  Quite simply I think he should not be pestered but that's life :o my dog would not harm such a pest but if I thought she would I could not live with the risk 'cos that dog may be a pest but they don't deserve an injury.

>So I think the idea an aggressive dog should be free to defend itself against this other one in a thousand, free running aggressive dog even if it puts innocent dogs at risk just does not wash with me.

Okay, well, I definitely do not agree on this occassion, Isabel.  A dog's main defence is his jaws. 

Any cheeky, pesky dog if it is socialised properly will read the signals of an aggressive dog and scamper away anyhow.   Unless he rises to the challenge and then you have a problem.  In those cases, I can see why some may let their dog off the lead.   And then you have a bigger problem.

Isabel it shows how much you realy know about dogs. 99% of dogs attack out of fear. My dog is not afraid he is from a strain of working dog and is very dominant. Other usually placid dogs can get aggressive when another dog shows any signs of dominance. What happens is another dog wants to join my pack and my dog sees this as a challenge to his dominant position just below the humans in our family. He will then display dominance over the other dog. If the other dog is completely submissive he wont fight. If the other dog shows any signs of being dominant then its a fight. This isnt a bad dog. This is a real dog doing what real dogs do. Its normal behaviour. He gets on fine with non dominant dogs. Dogs he knows(ie freinds dogs) This is because he knows they are not part of the pack and have their own pack and are no threat. Funny thing is I go walking in the hills with a freind who has what is termed a dog aggressive bull mastif. This dog was introduced to my two when they were all mature and not pups and they never show any aggression to each other. Its purely with dogs that run up and face him and I am fed up being bitten and abused because of this if you cant understand this as you obviously dont as you seem to think its my dogs fault for being like that and not the dog running loose. Then there isnt much point in educating you as people who want to know and understand tend to listen and learn rather than argue the pointless point.
The law states that dogs must be kept under control at all times. A dog that runs up to me whether I have a dog or not and doesnt listen to its owners recall is out of control in the eyes of the law.Therefor in the eyes of the law I am not doing anything wrong its the other person.
I have been bitten 4 times this year by other peoples dogs. I am placed in this situation daily by inconsiderate people. I dont go to places where people walk there dogs or excercise them off the lead. Most of these incidents happen on or near public roads which is ilegal.

I have said my bit I think you are wrong and the more you open your mouth the more I think you are wrong. You have no understanding of working dogs or their nature instincts etc. Its glaringly obvious.

Mr Murph, I for one can agree with you, My staffie has twice been attacked by dogs off lead!!

Once by a boxer and the other time by two ladradors! My dog was on the lead and thankfully I managed to difuse the situation. If it happened again, as I have said before on this website and was blown apart for saying, if it happened again and I struggled then I would let him off the lead to defend himself....

I will now let both my dogs go if needed. There are an awful lot of realy stupid people out there. I wouldnt let them breed themselves never mind dogs. Its this kind of selfish attitude that is bringing lots of problems to britain basically a case @@@@ you jack Im alright. I am slowly losing respect for this society as they want it without giving it.  I could just carry a realy heavy stick/pole for hurting dogs that come up to me. Its not a weapon if its a walking stick interpretation of the law again.
Some people think that their dogs dont deserve injured neither do I

I dont really care what you take with a pinch of salt. There are people on here who know me from years ago when it happened. They saw the photos of my dog when he came back from the vterinary college after a week of surgery and a titanium pin in his leg a tendon had to be reattached and a bit of bone removed. All because of someone with your opinion. They also know that I am a man of my word as I have rescued rehomed and done home checks for members of this board  So your opinion doesnt really matter.
I will end here and not converse with you again and I sincerely hope that any advice you give to people is taken as you say  "with a pinch of salt. Goodbye.

>met many aggressive dogs and many an aggressive owner, isn't it remarkable how the two often go together

Never a truer word spoken.

Mr Murph - You have openly admitted you have aggressive dogs, that are more capable then most of doing a lot of damage, yet you continue to walk them without muzzles in area's where you come across dogs off lead.  In my eyes that is inciting a fight, so no I would not blame the off lead dog owner, you are being the irresponsible one.

Perhaps you havent read the whole post Sandra I have spent almost £1500 fixing my dog. I am not going to muzzle him. I   know that most dogs are not capable of fighting my dogs. Well they shouldnt do it.
Known my luck it wont be a wee fox terrier or mongrel that attacks him if he is muzzled and I wont take that chance Im sorry if my dogs safety is guaranteed then I wouldnt need to muzzle him as other dogs wouldnt be fighting with him.
My dog isnt likely to attack any other dog as he doesnt get of the lead so he doesnt need a muzzle. He loves people etc and there is no danger to people. If there was I wouldnt have him.
I said before according to the law I am doing nothing wrong. The dog that runs up to me is deemed out of control by law.
It seems if I break the law its my fault if they break the law its my fault.
Big guy with the bull terrier presumed guilty again.

Yes I have read the thread and you have had a horrible experience.

However, lets take the following scenario, I am walking my two friendly dogs in a Forestry Commission park and woodland which is open to the public.  It is quite secure, away from roads infact I have to drive there.  I will be expecting to meet dogs off lead, not a problem.  Then around the corner you come with your two dogs, before I can recall both of mine, my ever so friendly dog does what dogs do and goes to greet yours.  Yours are on the lead but attack mine badly. 

I fail to see that I am at fault, I have a friendly dog off lead in an area you would expect to find dogs off lead.  You however, have taken yours to the same place knowing that any dog that approaches yours is very likely to be bitten.

My dog cant attack yours while he is on the lead. Also as long as I keep repeating no he wont (if on the lead) Your dogs would only be bitten if they were trying to fight with him. Funny enough I do the same with my dogs bot the forestry roads I use I havent met anyone yet. I dont mind these meetings and I expect them its a minor inconvenience and I will only let him bite a dog that is going to fight.  its in the streets that I am talking about. Every 100 yds I dont let him off on the forestry roads either as he will hunt deer.
Contrary to popular beleif I am not aggressive I am defensive of the breed. We get it in the neck unfairly all the time. I am not breaking the law. Get the law breakers first.

>I just dont think that anyone has the right to invade anothers space and not to expect somthing to happen now and again. My dog doesnt tolerate others as he is protecting his bitch. He is only doing what dogs do. The amount of times people with dogs on and off the lead have said just say hello

From one of your earlier posts.  It depends on how you interpret the word control.  If my dog is on the highway off lead likely to cause a traffic accident, then he is not under my control and I would accept I am liable for anything that happens as a result of this.

However, if he is in the type of place I have described where dogs are expected to be off lead, then as long as my dog does not initiate the aggression I do not feel the responsibility is mine.

What I can't understand is why do you walk your dogs in situations where they are likely to meet off lead dogs?  If you walked them around the pavements then I agree an off lead dog that approaches yours is in the wrong, it should not be off lead on the public highway.

its Glasgow I am talking about mainly although I doubt it matters what the city is. I avoid parks canals commons etc where people are. When I take my dogs out in the country I generaly dont experience any trouble. Its the city. No other dog will be bitten by mine unlerss it is close enough to make contact. A freindly dog will usually just walk by my dogs as they arent stupid and can sense that he isnt going to sociable. Its dogs expressing aggressiion and dominance that want to fight with him because he is displaying the same. i find GSDs Dalmations and labs to be the worst offenders. I dont blame the dogs for this. But I refuse to muzzle my dog and allow him to be bitten by others so that their owners have an easy life and no vet bills.  Like I say I obey the law when my dogs are out.

If your dogs run up to me and they arent near a road. They arent doing anything wrong unless they cause a nuisance or attack then you have broken the law by having a dog out of control. The dog laws are not very complex

Dalmatians and Labs are probably causing most of the problems as both breeds tend to be over friendly towards other dogs they meet.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this, or I will be on here all night.

Mr Murph has a dog that will act aggresively because it has been attacked on the street where dogs off lead have no business being.  His problem with his dog being defensively aggressive has been caused by others, and would not exist if the dogs are on the lead as his are.

I appreciate he now has a problem, however, I still think if you have aggressive dogs through no fault of your own admittedly, you cannot expect others to keep their dogs on the lead in an park etc.  With the best will in the world, dogs like this can suddenly appear before you get a chance to gather yours up and put on leads.

I have one that will immediately recall and I have a Dalmatian who can have selective hearing on occassions, but he is not aggressive or a threat to any other dogs.

Sandrah no one is saying about the Park.  Mr Murphy doesn't take his dog to the park he has problems with off lead dogs in the street.

Ok, I missed that :)

It just reminds me of a guy I bump into with two dobermans on my walk.  They are on the lead but very aggressive if a dog goes near them.  If I see his car in the carpark I am ready for it, but sometimes he takes me by surprise if he arrives after me.

>Mr Murph has a dog that will act aggresively because it has been attacked on the street where dogs off lead have no business being.  His problem with his dog being defensively aggressive has been caused by others, and would not exist if the dogs are on the lead as his are. 

In an earlier post Mr Murph has said that if he see's a dog, off lead coming towards his, looking like it may cause a fight he will let his off the lead to defend themselves. If he gets it wrong and the off lead dog was not going to attack he may be making another dog that is not aggresive become aggresive, just like what has happened to his own dogs.

Boxer lover. I can accept what you say and yes I never looked at that way that I could be causing the problem I have for someone else I will take that on board as I do listen to sense. Mick

Well done Mick, I did not see your post before I sent mine :)

Exactly.  His dog may have been attacked in the past but I am not sure that is entirely to blame for his present demeanor as Mr Murph also says this:

>My dog is not afraid he is from a strain of working dog and is very dominant. Other usually placid dogs can get aggressive when another dog shows any signs of dominance. What happens is another dog wants to join my pack and my dog sees this as a challenge to his dominant position just below the humans in our family. He will then display dominance over the other dog. If the other dog is completely submissive he wont fight. If the other dog shows any signs of being dominant then its a fight. This isnt a bad dog. This is a real dog doing what real dogs do.

"If it shows any signs" I wonder how subtle and half hearted and maybe motivated by fear those signs have to be for this dog to react.

He will react at the drop of a hat. I put a lead on my dog to go to the car in my drive.
I have starys in my garden and Ive even had people walk on while their dog is in my garden
I have just been out with my dog a 10 mile drive out of Glasgow to escape people with dogs of the lead and after apleasant nights walk we get out the car to another dog of the lead in our street. The guy says Ah its okay hes quick enough to get out the road.
This is what I am up against daily

Thank you Mr Murph :)
I really can see your point of view and why you felt like that though as it is not at all nice when your dog is attacked. It is a pity anyone has to be put in the position of feeling like the only thing they can do is let their dogs defend themselves by fighting, if other people were willing to talk about things like on here, maybe there wouldn't be so many dogs been attacked while walking. You really do sound like your up against it in your area, could you not ring the dog warden about the dogs roaming in your street?

They are neighbours dogs and I am not going to be here that long anyway another 10 12 months tops so I just cant be bothered with the fight anymore as you see on here it does seem that people think its fair for dogs to approach others on leads. or even go where they please. I had a run in with a spaniel owner who now keeps there dog under control. They were letting 2 small girls about 9 years old walk the dog off the lead. When it ran up to my two I had a hell of a job keeping them under control. The spaniel was just running around me and my dogs were getting tangled up and aggressive and the little girls could only cry and scream that they wouldnt grab their dog as they were frightened. The next day their mother was screaming at me in the street for frightening the kids. I basicaly told her where to go and the next day both mirrors were of my van. I cant prove anything.
I am extremely disheartened with the people of this country and the way its going.

My friends always allow their dogs to go up to other dogs.  I personally dont agree with this as they both dashed upto a mastif at Bournmouth when a child was holding it and from the look on the childs face he was obviously scared.  When we were out walking the beagle two hairy things not sure what they were twice ran up to her barked and kept chasing her round in the end she refused to leave the enclosure.  The woman had no control over her dogs but obviously thought it was clever not to put them on leads.  Her friend had a collie which did the same. 

I always keep my dogs on leads when people are around since Purdy went up to a dog to say hallo and had her face bit badly.  She was not agressive just went to sniff the dog.  I agree that dalmatians are over friendly and not to all peoples tastes but more often than not they are not agressive just in your face that is their nature.  They are also loud which does give the impression of agressivesness.  Any person who allows a dog with any suspicion of a bad nature off the lead is extremely stupid and irresponsible but I dont blame the dogs as much as the owners.  I am afraid I dont think there would be any occassion where I would be proud of my dog attacking but I can see the point which is trying to be made.  I always work on the assumption that if someone is walking their dogs on a lead they are not trustworthy and to give them a wide birth.

I am six foot and have two bull terriers on leads. I am very freindly but some say I dont look it. its the joining eyebrows. Bigger than staffs and extremely fit looking. I would give me a wide berth it is called common sense.
Whoever left a young boy in charge of a mastif should be charged with negligence either of the dog the child or both