Hi,
A friend of mine got a Staffy from a rescue kennel (I posted about him on here for her about tail chasing), She has since found out that he doesn't like other dogs, growling/snapping etc when he see's one. She only has him at home and allways keeps him on a lead when walking him, but I think I read a post on here a little while ago that said if your dog is dog aggressive even if it is on a lead and another dog comes up to you that is off lead, if your dog bites it you could still  be in trouble. I told her about this and we both wondered if this was correct?
Thanks
Louise

I believe that the law states that your dog MUST be under control at all times. It could be argued I suppose, that the dog who is offlead is NOT under control?

However, there is also the point to be made that if your dog bites another dog whilst onlead, it *could* bite a child ...

I am sure there are people who will be along soon who know the law far better than me :)

Thanks Mel, don't know enough about the law either to feel like I could advise her correctly. I would have thought the same, that the one off lead is not under control, but then if the dog on lead is pulling, trying to get free, going for the other dog, growling, etc, would that be classed as under control?
Hopefully someone will be along soon who knows. :)

We have many a debate about this one. :)

IMO if your dog is on lead and another one comes over it is the other owners responsibility to get it under control so yes, in theory it is their fault if your dog bites it. According to the law your dog should be under control at all times so if yours is on lead it is under control, if theirs is off lead and not coming back when called it is not.

However, in this case, if I had a dog I knew was going to bite and bearing in mind when a Staffy bites they won't let go and have one hell of a lot power in their jaws, I think to cover against the ignorance and inexperience of other dog owners (and therfore the innocent party, ie the dogs), I would have him muzzled. Chances are other owners will see the muzzle and call their dog away earlier which will also reduce stress for both your friend and the dog. It's a tricky one, caught between the morally right and the practical but in your friends case I think I would be forced to put other dogs safety ahead of my moral high ground!

Poor lad, sounds like he has had a rough start in life, let's hope he has landed on his feet with you friend. :)

Thanks Collierus for the reply. Just got in there before you replied :)
So, I may have set off another debate :)
Is there not a law that state's all this clearly?

The DDA covers dogs biting people, not dogs.

There IS an old law which is rarely used re dogs biting other dogs etc.

If an off lead dog, comes up to a dog on the lead it is the owner of the former that takes the responsibility of having a dog "not under close control".

After all, if a dog is off the lead and gets run over by a car, whose fault is that?  The car driver?  I don't think so.

It is up to the owner to make arrangements suitable for their particular dog and their environment.  I used to have a very anti social dog, he did not wear a muzzle on a lead and if owners are unable or unwilling to control their dogs from uninvited contact with other dogs it is a risk they take.

Unfortunately, many owners are unwilling to admit their failings and want to blame others for their own shortcomings.

I have no problem with people owning anti social dogs, as long as they are kept under control.  If they can be, so can other more "social" dogs.......

Okay. Ive been in court for this. Not my dog off the lead. The law states that on or near a public road all dogs must be on a lead. I have two bull terriers and get loads of hassle from people that wont keep their dogs on leads. My dogs fight. Hear is what you do and say as the law is down to interpretation. The same as you never put up a sign saying dangerous dog. Never say sorry after a dog fight. It could be taken that you are admitting your dog was to blame. Always blame the dog that was off the lead for growling at your dog and that is why he fought in self defence. Dont wait for the police, go home. If the police are involved make no comment regardless of what they say to you.  This was my lawyers advice.

If yours is the one likely to react in a savage way though, wouldn't it be better to do the ethical thing, never mind whether the law is on your side, and muzzle it.  Personally I would be devastated if my dog injured another no matter who was at fault expecially as rarely, if ever, is it either the loose dogs fault or the nasty one its all down to the humans involved either failing to train, recognise the lack of control or just plain allowing a dog capable of harming another to come into being.

I would muzzle my dog except that I have been in court for defending him against a GSD off the lead and I got fined for kicking the dog. Since then he has met this brute again and I let him off to defend himself. Now the GSD crosses the road of its own accord when it sees us. This GSD has attacked people and children but it is owned by a british diplomats daughter and they can do what they like.
When my dog is 100% safe from attack from other dogs I may be willing to muzzle him

But what would happen if an anti-social dog is on lead, muzzled and find itself being attacked by an off lead dog Isabel?  That's not particularly fair.  There are lots of rescue dogs undergoing rehab that may not be ready to socialise properly with another dog for one reason or another, not because the owner failed to train their dog properly. 

What is the problem of having a dog on lead and under close supervision when it passes or meets another in close circumstances?  If we all did that, there would be less dog to dog attacks.

No that is not fair but if the off lead dog is attacking that should be muzzled too.  These sorts of dogs are rare on the loose though, in my 30 years of walking dogs I have only twice met nasty dogs off leads, have met thousands of unruly,, untrained but harmless off lead dogs though that would have been at risk from mine if it was a nasty one and these are the ones that I would hate to see injured when basically it is not their fault.  Ideally I would prefer a world where dogs could meet and greet happilly anyway if we know ours is one of the ones likely to be a problem with that I think it is up to us to do our best to prevent it.

I feel I must reply Isobel I meet many silly dog owners who think it is their right to allow there dog to come up to mine when they are on leads. If my dog was muzzled he would be stressed at other dogs as he cant defend himself. He would also be acting very agressively and would be causing me stress also I dont think that anyone has this right to cause me and my dog so much stress just because theyre dog is sociable. also the most sociable dog can attack a dog that is acting aggressive towards it. I have no problem with anyone allowing their dog off a lead as long as they can keep it away from mine. If they cant it will most likely get bit.

With the best will in the world it's going to happen sometimes even well trained dogs owners will not notice you coming along a converging path say.  As I say I could not feel comfortable owning a dog that could hurt another but I would hesitate to call the ownership of one silly ;)

>> These sorts of dogs are rare on the loose though, in my 30 years of walking dogs I have only twice met nasty dogs off leads

Then you are lucky :( My bitch was attacked by an off lead Staff x Lab - the owners reply was 'Oh he doesn't like huskies but we never see any around here so it's okay to let him off'. I won't put my reply on here. My bitch is always on a lead - before this episode she was fine with other dogs - now she will growl if they come near. She is all noise but I always ask owners who let their dogs run up to ours to call them back and explain the problem. She is fine with dogs she knows will not harm her - but new dogs she is very wary of. Training her to look at me and ignore other dogs has worked well though - thankfully she is extremely food orientated.

How am I lucky? I had two nasty-dog incidents................but in 30 years ;), I did not say it never happened :)  The first of my dogs it happened to, a Cocker, was not fazed at all by future interactions.  The second one, a Terrier, was wary and avoided dogs of the breed that had attacked her or resembled one but remained sociable with other dogs so I suppose we were lucky in that respect but then both were of affable breeds.

>> How am I lucky? I had two nasty-dog incidents

Ah, all you said was that you had met two nasty dogs that were off the lead - not that they attacked yours or anything (though I probably didn't read it as closely as I should). It is great that your first dog wasn't fazed by being attacked - unfortunately Mals can have a problem with other dogs (not all Mals, touch wood so far my boy is brilliant - though he comes from a line that do have far better dog tolerance than most). Training has worked well with her and she now gives me her attention rather than her bothering with the other dog, which is great :)

Precisely Spender, when someone sees someone else with a dog on a lead or sees them PUT their dog on the lead, why, oh why does it not occur to these people to do likewise if they do not have total control over their dogs.

Would they like someone to invade THEIR personal space?

No, they would not, so why allow their dogs to be rude?

Your dog does not have to be "savage" or "vicious" to object to a  "space invader" just be a normal dog!

If they cannot or will not exhibit basic good manners perhaps they should take up goldfish.

Hello tohme
Because they dont have the brains of a dog or manners were never taught

My dog will let young, boistrous dogs know she is not happy about their lack of manners and they always get the message :) but she will not bite them.

I just dont think that anyone has the right to invade anothers space and not to expect somthing to happen now and again.
My dog doesnt tolerate others as he is protecting his bitch. He is only doing what dogs do. The amount of times people with dogs on and off the lead have said just say hello.
DOGS DONT SAY HELLO THATS WHAT HUMANS DO.
He isnt just as bad on his own. Why on earth people want to let their dogs run up to two ISBTS on leads is beyond me. I love the breed and would keep my dog back.
So the choice is this a dog approaches my dog and its not being kept on a lead. My dog growls the other dog starts a fight and my dog throws it around like a rag doll and the owner is too scared to get their dog and I have to separate both. Usually being bitten in the process. OR   I can kick the other dog as hard as I can and save it from being bitten and I get attacked by the owner I defend myself and end up in court for assault as the guy with the bull terrier is always guilty before the stupid person with the other dog. THIS HAS HAPPENED TO ME MORE THAN ONCE.. So now I let my dog do the fighting and I walk away without a word when its broke up.
I dont try to stop the fight as my dog doesnt realy svaged others he chokes them. When the other person grabs their dog I make him let go.
We have got it down to a fine art now where I dont get into court and neither does my dog. The owner of the other dog doesnt get what they deserve for allowing it to happen and only the dog that was the aggressor is possibly injured
Im a happier bunny this way

I suppose we all want different things from owning dogs.

Now that I will agree with

I just want peace to enjoy my dogs without other people or their dogs upsetting us, as I have the same right to a quiet life without being assaulted accosted or abused as the next person.

>I just want peace to enjoy my dogs without other people or their dogs upsetting us, as I have the same right to a quiet life without being assaulted accosted or abused as the next person. 

Exactly.  And why shouldn't you be allowed to have a nice peaceful walk with your dog and peace to enjoy your dog.

Incidentally, we were standing grooming ours in the middle of the green stray beside us and this lady came running up to us.  Never saw her before, a complete stranger.  She said she noticed our dogs were off lead and her friend was coming towards us with a terrier, can't remember which type.  Anyhow, she asked if we would ensure that our dogs would not come barging up to hers that was on lead as her dog was getting stressed and nervous with being annoyed by other strange bad mannered dogs off lead.

I am confident my dogs would not bother hers as they are fully trained but I put them on lead anyhow as an act of common courtesy and to reassure her that there was no problem.  Which I do anyhow as a matter of course. 

But not only are you showing that you are exercising complete control over your dogs but you are showing the other owner that you are taking control as well.  Thus, having respect for other people and allowing them to have a nice peaceful walk with their dog.    

 

A wonderful bit of sense

>this lady came running up to us.  Never saw her before, a complete stranger.

I quite understand what you mean, but isn't it odd that you happily accept that woman running up to you, but object to a dog running up to yours? Wasn't she 'invading your space' (if such a thing actually exists when you're in a public place ;)) as much as any dog?

>I quite understand what you mean, but isn't it odd that you happily accept that woman running up to you, but object to a dog running up to yours? Wasn't she 'invading your space' (if such a thing actually exists when you're in a public place ) as much as any dog?

She was a human JG, not a dog.  I didn't happily accept it; I looked at her rather suspiciously at first.  But we live in a society that has rules and laws; thou shalt not kill, or commit GBH etc, etc, thus minimising risk.  We all understand them although fair enough some may not comply.  Dogs on the other hand don't understand our laws. 

PS, she wasn't sniffing my bum either.  ;-) :-D :-D

She wouldn't have to be running round like that if her mate just put a muzzle on the dog :)
And you could have been left in peace to get on with your grooming rather than having your freedom impinged upon.

Why would she have to put a muzzle on the dog?

The dog was nervy and stressed, not a biter.  And she is perfectly entitled to tell other people to leave her dog alone and that includes their dogs 

>The dog was nervy and stressed

I suppose I read that as an euthamise for willing to bite :) but you could be right.  Must say though if it was my dog getting nervy and stressed I would walk the other way rather than ask someone quietly grooming their dogs to buckle up.

It was just outside the city walls Isabel, with the river on one side and a railway track on the other.  She had no where else to walk unless she turned round and walked back into the city.  It looked like they were on their way home.  It's not always feasible to be able to walk the other way, it depends what's there.

But it was no problem for me.  I'm more than happy to work with other owners so we can all enjoy our dogs. :-)

Spendor you are one of the reasonable intelligent people who have a little thought respect manners etc.
Anybody against the idea of keeping their dog away from mine is a nutter

Yes, I know she was a human, but it's the same principle. ;) Public spaces are just that - public! Nobody has their 'personal' part of it - it's all for sharing.

From your description, your meeting with her was exactly the same as happens between dogs. One approaches the other, species-appropriate overtures are made, then both go on their way. Doesn't matter if they're people, dogs or anything else.
:)

Nooooo... definitely don't agree that it's the same, JG that's like anthropomorphism.

We have laws that dictate what is acceptable and what is not.  Most of our species-appropriate overtures are cultivated by the culture that we live in.  Dogs meet each other in their meeting ritual, it is acceptable to dogs to fight or flee if feeling threatened.  That is the nature of the beast. 

>Most of our species-appropriate overtures are cultivated by the culture that we live in.  Dogs meet each other in their meeting ritual, it is acceptable to dogs to fight or flee if feeling threatened.

Yes, exactly. Dogs live by natural laws, not artificial ones. They are animals; their natural behaviours are as important to them as ours are to us. I'm not saying that they should all run riot willy-nilly, but I don't believe that anyone in a public place has the right to deny normal behaviour in others. If a person's dog is stressed by the presence of others, there are two options - work at desensitising it in carefully controlled conditions and gradually rehabilitate it into normal society; or stay away from places where it's likely to meet other dogs.
:)

It depends what you deem as normal.  People have the right to deny behaviour that is perceived to be unsafe or unacceptable JG.  There are many public places that do not allow dogs of lead.  It may be natural to a dog to run out on the road, or play amongst the traffic, we don't allow that because it is unsafe and I suppose to a dog that could be denying normal behaviour? After all, having them on a lead is not natural, is it?

If you don't want to meet strangers, you don't go to parties. If you don't want your dog to meet offlead dogs, you don't take him to places where they're likely to be running loose. If you take a child to the playground you expect that other children are going to be running around, making a noise, coming to say hello to yours - you don't expect them to to wait till they're formally intorduced.

Public places are just that - for everyone! Nobody has more rights than anyone else.
:)

When you go to parties, it's inevitable you may meet strangers.  However, you can't always anticipate that you will only meet on-lead dogs when you go for a walk.  Nobody advertises that one. 

I have no objections to dogs being of-lead providing they have a good recall and the owners puts them on lead and under close supervision when approaching another strange dog.  You don't and can't know what another strange dog is capable of, they are dogs and they can be unpredictable at times.

Owners of of-lead dogs should not have their dog out of control at any time in a public place and more importantly so, when other people or children are around.   It's quite simple JG.  Dogs are not children and they are not humans.  They are dogs. :-)

hat is in an ideal world. When you have a young dog in training or an independent breed like mine their recalls may not be perfect, and never will be if they don't get to be off lead. 

Because of this I ensure that my dogs are very well adjusted when it comes to others of their own species, they know when another dog is giving get lost signals and don't bother with them.  They have been taught not to crowd another dog (after all they are a group) and after a quick exchange of greetings are required to 'walk on'

I also walk with a freind with a large guarding breed, and have to be aware of what other dogs are up to, as if run up to her male will not suffer fools gladly so I can see both sides of this, but with the Dobe we do check for loose dogs and don't expect the owners to realise he might not want the attention, generally we walk a different way to avoid any problem.  If we go where off lead dogs will be we expect to ahve to deal with them.  If the dog were really dog aggressive then we would not take him where loose dogs are.

With my own loose dogs I do not call them back every time we see a loose dog as they would never be off lead.  I watch to see other dogs or ownrs reaction and send the dogs on or stop for a chat as appropriate.

It's really about assessment of risk.

There was one case a while ago about a GSD that was off lead, attacked this ladies dog and the ladies finger got bitten as she separated the two dogs.  It went to court and a destruction order was served on the GSD.  The GSD wasn't in close proximity of its owner nor did they even see it.

My work colleague is undergoing a case at the moment.  According to his lawyer, the fact that he had his dog on lead in a public place very much goes in his favour.  It will be interesting to see the outcome.

With the current climate regarding personal injury claims etc, you really can't be too careful these days. 

>Dogs are not children and they are not humans.  They are dogs.

Yes, exactly. :) And as such owners should accept they'll behave like dogs. If species-appropriate behaviour isn't acceptable, perhaps people have the wrong species ... ;)
:)

Unfortunately it has to be said many of us are wary of other dogs because they have not been correctly socialised and are, therefore, socially incompetent which may have disastrous, permanent results for our dogs.

I don't expect all humans to be "socially competent" in fact the newspapers are filled with stories every day of examples of social incompetence ie psychopaths, paedophiles and other examples.  IT does not mean that I should not frequent any area where they may be found.

Unfortunately neither dogs nor nutters carry labels with which to identify themselves with, otherwise avoidance would be simple.

My dogs do socialise with socially competent dogs and owners, but I will not allow them to be put at risk by those dogs or owners who are incapable of normal interaction.

>I don't expect all humans to be "socially competent" in fact the newspapers are filled with stories every day of examples of social incompetence ie psychopaths, paedophiles and other examples.

How full would the papers be if they listed the millions of people who weren't like that? They only make the news because they're unusual. ;)

Like all statistics, it is never a problem, due to its "rarity" unless of course, it happens to you...........................

If it happens to me, I find a way to deal with it - that's my responsibility, not everyone else's ... ;)

It is everyone's responsibility to control/train their own dog, it is not MINE to control/train theirs, however I do when my dogs are involved with the result that regulars know better than to have their dogs out of control.................

So they have learned a valuable lesson.

Very well put Tohme, I whole heartedly agree.

>When you go to parties, it's inevitable you may meet strangers.

Yes, so you accept the risk. If you also accept that you're likely to meet off-lead dogs when you go for a walk (unless you're pavement-pounding) ...

>When you go to parties, it's inevitable you may meet strangers.
>Yes, so you accept the risk. If you also accept that you're likely to meet off-lead dogs when you go for a walk (unless you're pavement-pounding) ...

Of course it's likely that you will meet an of-lead dog on a walk. But what is the hardship of putting that dog on a lead and under close supervision until both dogs pass each other? 

Why should that be a problem unless you go to park that is full of of-lead dogs, then I can see it may be impracticable due to exercise restriction but you also accept the risk. 

There are members of the public who are afraid of dogs JG, not dog owners obviously, but would not appreciate a strange dog running up to them.  In law, it can be argued that fear that an injury might occur is enough to bring a civil claim.  This is the climate we live in, I'm afraid.

The point remains that unfortunately there are dogs that not properly socialized or trained and irresponsible owners out there.

It all boils down to everyone having equal rights to walk their dogs how and where they choose (common sense re near traffic and livestock naturally accepted, as dogs will be dogs!) along with equal responsibility to make sure they themselves don't breach other people's rights to do the same.
:)

>If you don't want your dog to meet offlead dogs, you don't take him to places where they're likely to be running loose.

My thoughts exactly.

>So now I let my dog do the fighting and I walk away without a word when its broke up. From Mr Murph

Very responsible ownership.  Dogs with temperaments such as yours should not be walked in a public place where you will meet other dogs off lead.