What do you do when you think the people at your training club are talking a load of rubbish? My puppy has just moved up to the Bronze club, and I am silently disagreeing with a lot of what the trainer of our group says. I remember not thinking much of her when I went through her class with my older dogs (when she announced we had all bought our dogs for guard dogs - Cavaliers?? Guard dogs???), but now I know slightly more. Examples: (1) she says don't say 'no' when you want them not to jump up as the word has 'negative connotations' - dogs don't understand English!! (2) When teaching them to sit and wait as we walk round them, she says put the foot nearest the dog forward first - trainers of the higher classes have told us to use the foot nearer the dog when we want them to come with us and use the foot further away when we want them to wait where they are. (3) We have to practise going through doors before our puppies so that they 'respect us' - this is outdated thinking, and even if we are doing the exercise because it is in the Bronze GC test, why does she want us to do it without giving them a command, when you can give a command in the test?

The thing is, although I feel that she is talking rubbish, and I can tell at least 2 of the other members think so too, would I be rude to politely point some of this out, or should I keep quiet as she has (presumably) more knowledge and experience than me? I have only had dogs since I got my older two, who are now 3 1/4 years old.

It might be more prudent to ask questions.............

The way someone handles questions demonstrates whether they really understand what they are talking about or just repeating received "wisdom"........

Not saying "NO" is, IMHO, a good habit to have, otherwise some dogs actually start to think that is their name.  Also, it only tells the dog what NOT to do, if you are lucky, not what you would like it to do instead..................

What foot you leave your dog on is, IMHO and E, completely immaterial.  If the dog understands the command "sit" it should do so until and unless it is released or given another command.  This is what I mean by "received wisdom"; this is superstition and habit, not sense.  The same is true about starting off with a particular foot on heelwork.

Dogs should be taught by cause and effect and need no commands re doors and gates; I teach all my puppies this way as of course I want them to demo the behaviour long before they actually understand the command.  So if they get up the door remains or is closed, if they sit, the door opens, simple, dogs grasp this in minutes from about 7 weeks of age.

I have always used my left foot (closest to dog) first when I want him to follow and right when I want them to wait too, we are also allowed to use the command 'wait' when teaching a dog to go through a gate at our class however I do feel this is quite a necc thing - esp with rotties because they do not see legs :D therefore I would always have my dog follow behind me through a door or gate - just so I don't get taken out in the process LOL.  It is difficult in that situation but if you have paid for the course just say that you have been told different things before therefore why does she do the things the way she does, she should be able to give an explanation.  I also use NO as a command for instance if my dogs are running towards a rabbit etc - downs, waits and stays have little effect but a firm NO always stops them??? :)  I would perhaps see what she has to say, if she has no answers or not satisfactory ones I would maybe look for another class???

I have been told moving off with your right leg when you want dog to heal gives them time to get up on command, by the time you get your left leg going dog is willing and no dog left behind.  However was always taught other way.

"No" is a command like "sit", "stay" "heel".  If you teach a dog "no" your normally saying that same as "stop"  I personally use "no" to say "that is bad behaviour!" if they jump up (on anything, me, chair etc) the command is "off" I always teach dogs I go though door first because it gives me more control.  If I have 3 dogs pulling me out the door and they see something befor eI do I have no control (setters are big!) it also helps when I walk though the door and they don't!

If your not happy then talk to someone else in the club about it, or question her to "why" or "but I've been told elsewhere...."

If you give your command "heel" and then pause before moving off, it matters not which foot you start off with first; it is a matter of timing, not footwork.

"No" is not a behaviour, if I want a dog to stop I give the "stop", "off" etc command as the dog has been taught it and therefore knows exactly what I want.  I like to make things easy for the dog, bearing in mind for example if a dog jumps it may also be doing other things simultaneously like barking, panting etc how does it know what the "no" refers to? ;)

But in the final analysis it really matters not what words etc you use, as long as the dog is responsive and you get the results you want.

There are numerous ways to achieve the same end.

I think in the scheme of things these things are not that terrible compared with some of the horrors we hear about trainers.  I think it is consistancy that counts rather that methods (other than cruel ones of course) and presumably you have been happy with the results with your dog so far.  She may or maynot be wrong but you are in danger of causing ill-feeling if you question her so I would think twice unless you are prepared to pack it in a look for another school in the area.

Good heavens, no body let alone no trainer should have any problems with being questioned, bout anything!

Why on earth would questioning cause ill feeling?

It demonstrates an enquiring mind that wants to learn more and fully understand what they are doing.

Anyone and any trainer worth their salt welcomes questions in my experience.

It is only those people who are not confident about who they are or what and how they do it that are bothered by questions!

>Why on earth would questioning cause ill feeling?

It certainly shouldn't! But we've seen time and again that people assume question=criticism and become defensive/aggressive ... :(

This has happened to me so I left and the training ceased - what does that tell ya!

hmmm, very true JG..........

I teach my dogs that they come with me if I step off first with my left foot and they stay behind if I leave with my right. With the more experienced dogs I can halt in heelwork and without speaking can move away with either foot and they will continue in their heelwork or wait accordingly. However if you are a pet dog handler I wouldn't have thought it was so important as you are less likely to need the dog to pay such close attention to body signals than if you were heading towards competing in 'A' or above where you cannot use as many voice commands.

I personally would be unable to resist questioning them if I disagreed with their methods but their reaction depends on the club. In my extrainers club anyone who questioned her, and so her authority, was belittled, lied about and publicly humiliated at every opportunity. Which is why, after 6 years, I left. At the agility club I go to now your questions would be answered and you would be highly regarded for taking an interest and thinking for yourself. Let us know what happens!

Some would, some wouldn't :) Humans are like that, depends how it is put too which is why I said there is a danger of it.  As we see time and again on this board training encompases so many different opinions and methods so all I am saying is if the desired results are being achieved why risk upsetting someone without at least considering the consequences.

Absolutely Tohme.  No trainer should argue or take offence at someone asking question of their training.  It does show that the "pupil" is listening and is interested.  I ALWAYS say when I take training (which is at a local club and I do training days) that there is no right and no wrong to training (aside from being nasty to your dog being wrong).  I do prefer people to ask questions.  Infact I have learnt things through people asking questions of me!

But there are people out there who think that the are the bees knees and think that they shouldn't be questioned.  My advice to anyone that has a trainer like that is to change clubs...  Nobody in dog training knows everything.

As they say, the only stupid question is the one that is not asked.

And the definition of an "expert" is someone who is dead.................. cos then they are not capable of learning anything else! ;)

No-one knows everything about anything.

How depressing if they did, it would mean that learning was finite!

I'll try to ask a few questions tonight then! Tricky, as they are always more keen on instructing than being questioned!! :-) I can see the point of telling them to do something rather than what not to do, if she'd explained it like that I would have had no problem with not saying 'no'!

There aren't a lot of replies to this but already there are several different opinions on your examples. There are so many different ways of training.

One thing that noone has mention yet is about the word 'no' having 'negative connotations'. While it is true that dogs don't understand English they do understand the tone behind the word. It is extremely difficult for you to say the word "no" without sounding negative because years of chatting away has taught you that "no" is a negative. As a result it is YOU that has negative connotations with the word and your dog will notice these, particularly when you are unexpectedly jumped on and don't make the massive effort required to make the "no" sound neutral.

You asked "would I be rude to politely point some of this out". It very much depends on how you do it!

Your message may have come across the wrong way, it sounds as though you would like to tell your trainer she is rubbish in front of the class, giving examples of why she is "wrong". In my opinion this would be extremely rude and I would ask you to leave my classes, after all, if you're so much better you don't need to be there.

I'm sorry if I am wrong and you weren't intending to do anything so rude.

There are two ways you can approach this. Asking questions during the class is the best way to deal with things as they come up, using your example (2) "Bob, the other trainer, says we should step away with the other leg, is there a reason we are doing it differently?"

The other way would be to speak to your trainer after class, i.e. in private, to point out the things you are worried/confused about. She can then answer your questions and you can make her aware of your concerns. Remember that doing things differently doesn't mean that they are wrong. If after that you aren't happy perhaps you need to move into another class or go to a different club, although a lot has to be said for learning how NOT to do things too.

Karen

>> "Bob, the other trainer, says we should step away with the other leg, is there a reason we are doing it differently?"

Yes, that's the sort of thing I had in mind. I definitely DON'T want to be rude to her or anyone! As it happened the only thing she came out with last night was the idea that we had to eat before our dogs before that's what would happen in the wild, so I kept quiet. I think she was already a bit disgruntled that I wouldn't let Ellie cross sides behind me like she was trying to teach us - I want her to cross in front of me because that's how we are used to doing it in ringcraft!!

I think you're right, almost everyone teaches their dog slightly differently and I guess it's just what works for each dog!