has anyonre use the canine herpes vacc,
just need some fed back on the results .

brie my fcr had 2 litter 1st one born on day 56 2nd litter on 54 with thresult of the litter dieing.
brie been test for ch the result come back clear,that was blood and swaps.

just got of the phone from a speclist vet she stated to give brie the ch vacc two after mating then scann to see if she in whelp if so another vacc two weeks before pup due.if she in whelp to take blood to see what her hommone levals are throgh out the peroid too.
she fall and carrys the pups but only to the days above,

just need some advise as she my only liver bitch to carry my liver lines on

thank you

Have you used the same male each time, or different ones?

Not saying that there's anything wrong with the male just that maybe they're not compatible?

two different dog each time

Hi Terri, Yes, I would never again do any mating without the vaccine.  I have had bitches re-absorbing, mummifying and fading puppies. It was soul destroying, so commited myself to research.  Since using the vaccine, every mating has been successful.

Testing for herpes ONLY works if the virus is active, when dormant the titres show negative. Stress activates the virus. So even if all goes well and bitch carries to full term producing a good litter of healthy pups, whelping can and will trigger the virus and pups ingest this through the colostrum, infecting all pups, this is what we see in fading puppies. It would seem in you case that as mum begins to get ready for whelping a week or so before due, the virus is 'activated' and this results in the onset of early labour.

There are now 3 vaccines, and all are very effective. 

I have recently finished a 78 page paper on the subject of CHV and FPS and placed a condensed version in a thread on CD not so long ago, but cant find the link, will search for it a post it for you

Found it..

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=524500;hlm=and;hl=chv#524500

cut and paste, it won't link and I dont know how to do the short links ;)

Have we been really lucky over the last 20 years or is it just certain breeds that seem to be having problems?

I never do any of the tests or give these injections etc.  Not stirring anything, just interested to know if it's a breed specific thing?

The only thing that we've been having problems with is our Pomeranian's not coming into season at all.

you stated there 3 vacc
are they different type by different companys or i got to give 3 dose of the vacc

Hi briedog i used it last year on one of my girls she went on to have a wonderful litter with no problems whatsoever and for the sake of £42 i would definatley use it again. In fact i wouldnt even consider breeding again without using the vaccine

Hi Terri, sorry was not clear in my posts.  There are now 3 different vaccines. When I started using it the was only one. Stick to one type only, your vet will guide you on this.  I use EuricanHerpes 205, from Merial. This one is to be given within 24 hours of mating, and 2nd one exactly 2 weeks before due date.  the other two have a varying time factor. One I think can be given at anytime during ovulation and again at 2 weeks before due whelping date.  All are as equally effective.

Diane, it seems to be more prevelant in the larger gene pool breeds, there tells a story methinks :)

Thanks kayc :d :d

Is it also the breeds that have bigger litters too, as our breed average is 5?

so gollie avage then ?????

Yeah all the Briarlow breeding is only average :d :d

24 hour of mating is that on the 1st or 2nd mating
sorry so many question

what would you do if your vets did not vaccinate for canine herpes - I dont really want to change vets - any advice as I want to get my bitch vaccinated for this later this year before I mate her.

Ask your vet to get the vaccine in for you, which I'm sure they will.

Liisa, some vets still do not even know the vaccine exists,  have spoke to many vets about this, and am amzed at the lack of knowledge of the vaccine.  It was only introduced in April 2003 so, to a certain extent I can understand the breeders not knowing about it, but unless a vet attends a seminar or read everysingle leaflet pamphlet and notice ever printed, it really is not common knowledge.

Terri and Dianne, it has not been proven one way or another whether the fertility of the female, or a particular breed are more susceptible to the virus, only by canvassing and speaking to as many breeders across the board as possible, that it 'seems' to be more prevelant in the larger gene pools. (Which, on the whole, tend to have larger litters)

Just a few years ago, many breeders were accepting the lack of fertility in bitches, or 'not being caught', mated at the wrong time, etc, etc, etc as reasons for no puppies. Many of us used the same 'infertile bitch' with the vaccine, and went on to whelp healthy litters!

Terri, it depends on which vaccine your vet uses as to the timing of 1st inection.  The one I use is within 24hours of 1st mating. 

Liisa, simply ask your vet to get the vaccine.  My vet knew nothing about the vaccine either when I originally requested it it back in September 2003.  I now just advise of a mating and they automatically order the vaccine for me :)

I used the CHV this time after my bitch missed the first time. Kayc is right, it's quite surprising how many vets have never heard of it :-( I had to phone round several who then told me they would have to buy a whole batch, which according to Merial is not true? I felt that some of them where trying to cash in :-(
Anyway, in the end I went to my breeders vets who stocked it. We had the first one just before the 1st mating and the 2nd one 12 days before she was due (as 2 weeks was a weekend). I had heard a few stories of varying success with it but then you can't say for sure if something has gone wrong wether it was to do with the vaccine or would have happened anyway. Anyway result for me was a nice size litter, all good weights and all doing extremely well. I would ALWAYS use it again, wether I was asked to or not for all it costs :-) I felt I was doing the best thing for my girl and her babies :-)

I used it only once and that is the only bitch I have mated who missed. It is probably just co incidence but does raise the question what do I do with her next time. She had one litter 2 years ago with no vaccine and no trouble.
Amos

Hi my vet got the vaccine in for me no problem, i would think that you wouldnt need to change vets

Try this site

http://www.canineherpes.com/

Whereas I can fully appreciate and totally understand the desire to carry on a certain line - it is after all one of the things breeders aim to do.  I would also be very reluctant to put my bitch through the possible trauma of maybe losing puppies again.   Whereas one can get vets' assessments on the physical state of a bitches health - what about the mental state and how she feels having suffered these losses.

Equating it to humans  - a friend of mine suffered 4 miscarriages and 2 stillborn babies before finally giving up.  She went through sheer hell - I will never forget her total distress and trauma.  Some things are just not meant to be.

Becky

I wished we had known earlier about this vaccine. I heard from a friend whilst away at one of the shows but by the time we got home our girl was 14 days post mating and too late for the vaccine.
We have previously only had one bitch that we hoped to have puppies from and sadly her 1st litter was 1 pup that survived to 8 weeks and on the 2nd litter again was 1 pup breech presentation that died before a vet was concerned enough to go to the surgery at 06:30 to save her.
I hope upon hope that our new girl will manage to produce a healthy litter regardless of not having this vaccine,which in any future litter will be the first thing we do post mating

I do not think its a good thing to equate human emotions to those that dogs may experience, especially when it comes to losing children.
However it may be that some things are 'not meant to be' but surley the owner of that bitch who knows her best and has been with her throughout is in the best position to make that decision.
Amos

Whether or not you equate human emotions to dogs or not, I would say from experience that bitches who have had a problem more than once are more likely to repeat it again. A friend of mine had a bitch which had early deliveries on two litters, she never bred from this bitch again, but did keep a puppy. When the puppy was old enough she had the young bitch mated and the young bitch did the same thing as it's dam. Her first litter was early and her second was earlier than the first litter.

Regarding emotion in dogs, they have emotions if they didn't we would not see so many postings about separation anxiety. When Brie lost the last litter Terri did say on this board that Brie was very distressed, at the loss of the litter, which I took to mean she was emotionally distressed, since Terri did not mention a physical distress. So I would be taking Bries emotional state into consideration before considering a third litter, which with or with out the vaccine there is no guarantee that she would end up with healthy puppies. I am sure Terri will do the right thing by Brie, and will take all things into consideration, including physical and mental well being for her bitch.

I have used the Eurican Herpes vaccine with excellent results on a female that previously had a fading litter. The vaccine was given 10 days after the first mating, then the second one a week before she was due to whelp. Both vaccines cost a total of £95 including the vets consultation. The vets buy the vaccine in as single doses, so they don't have to buy a whole batch at once.    

I have to say that I do agree with Polly and Becky with regards to emotions. It is a very trying and upsetting for the bitch to be 'put' through the heartache of loss. And yes they do feel a sense of loss. 

As with Terri, it was a line that I wished to keep going, yellow.  The bitch concerned has already had a good healthy litter, from which I kept a black pup.  next mating she reabsorbed, subsequent mating she mumfied. It was just after this I heard about the new vaccine, so as a final try for a litter, I decided to use the vaccine, and the bitch produced a good healthy litter.

Now I use the vaccine as a matter of course.  I have had a bitch in my household which has proved positive for CHV so I cannot and dare not put any of my bitches through the same. So, by using the vaccine, I hope that I can avoid the distress of the bitch losing a litter and also avoid the distress of the fading puppies.

I am not disputing that dogs feel upset and loss of course they do, so do probably all living creatures, but they are not human emotions. I think dog lovers sometimes mix up the two which doesn't always do the dog any favours.

Amos

the reason i wrote on here was to find out the result the ch vacc has  it had good or not so results

i DIDNT STATED I WAS GOING TO MATE BRIE AGAIN,IT WAS THE ADVISE OF THE VET TO GO DOWN THAT ROUTE IF I WISH.
yes brie is my liver bitch which i love to carry on with my liver lines.but she comes first.

brie had her first litter on day 56 she was a very good mum even though she was very ill with kennel cough the day she went into whelp this is what cause her to have the pups earley.all 9.but bye week 4 we lost 6 pups to kc.she was still a very good mum though oyut that time.
the second litter was born on that very hot day in june 19th,she was on day 54 the pups which there was 5,one die at birth,3 die with in 12hours the last one at 24 hours but in that time i was keep  him warm and dry,beacuse they were so tiny weight in at 6ozs with no coat but perfectley formed.just looked like a baby mouse,but i was willing to but the work in for this little pup but brie wanted him in the whelping with her not in the heat box with a baby sock on him with a heat pad and blankets to kept him warm he was feeding and pooing,but she just want him to  be with her so we made the dission to but him in the whelping box with her  didnt like him having the sock on she put it of and kept licking him which then made him cold and wet,so we throught about it weather to nurse him throw this like i did with the kc litter or to let him go. the result nature best let him be with his mum which he was to the end. at the time gollie had her pups to so weather brie throught they were her he kept look for them for two day which she did help out with gollie pups.
we could not do any thing about the milk supply just to let it go naturley again which it did with in a week,she was out and enjoying her walks and training  after a week,but two day after the pup  die it was hell for her.
so i was just asking about the vacc.
brie is a very fit and well bitch just cannot go full term with the pups,i have given the reason why above plus i have tested for ch where other breeders wouldnt to rule it out,plus i dont do things  ligthly or rush into it either,
i do care about my dogs but the last three year with lost of three and other problem  you only want advise  not to be knocked .

Terri, I have PM'd you :)

Terri

I for one was NOT knocking you in any way.  All I said was that as well as the vaccines etc there was the bitch to consider.  This was a generalisation  - and not in any way saying that you were not taking her feelings into account.  I remember your posts about the litter and I remember you saying how distressed poor Brie was.  Nobody has said that you do not care about your bitch.  It is a very hard decision to make and I am sure you - with all your experience - will make the right one.

Becky