please would it be possible to have two lists of breeders, one for showing and one for working. as the show type is so sloaped backed. and trying to find a good strong sheperd with a brain from show stock in this country is a rarity. it would make things so much easier' please forgive my typing i am a new comer to the internet.

From what I ahve read it is the Germanic dogs that have the most working ability. 

the argument the kc will give you is the dogs have a standard ,and all gsd fall within the breed standard, they will not let the same breed be on two different  breed standards, you are quite welcome to phone the kc and see what they say about the gsd,it is quite an emotive subject within the gsd people themselves.
carol

If you want a dog to show then if you attend a few CHamp shows you will see the type of GSD you like and can go from there approaching the exhibitors/breeders of the ones you like.

If you want a GSD to work ie in Working Trials/Schutzhund etc then again, if you attend a trial or test you will see working GSDs and be able to find out who produces the dogs you like.

There one or two who do well in both fields.

....or get yourself a Belgian shepherd - they can do it all !! :d :D :D

Plenty of lines in BSD that do welll in the showring AND in obedience/agility etc

Yvonne

Waves :P Hi Yvonne,

Did you hear we just got another Obedience champ last weekend?  Litter sister to Technicolor - Tervs rule :D

there is a seiger show being held in this country i will try and find the place and you could proberly go along and have a look at those dogs and see then you would see the difference in the way they show those dogs, where abouts do you live as where i live there are some gsd ringcraft classes only and they would be only to pleased to give you advice etc.
carol

Just wait Teri Malinois will have their day too!!  :p I'm on cloud 9 today as my 15 week old pup was moved up to the intermediate class at dog training last night as he's already too advanced for the other dogs in the beginner class. <brag brag, sorry!!> :D

Yep, can't do better than a BSD -any variety! Much less health problems as well! AND of course better looking!! ;)

Marianne

Congrats Marianne :)  Don't think it will be long before the Malinois are making their mark - their so darn smart (make the Tervs look a bit dumb actually and the blacks look positively retarded :D but don't tell Yvonne I said that )

Teri  ;)

If you are interested in seeing real working dogs in the discipline of Mondioring the second UK event is being held in Leominster  Sports Centre this Sunday starting at 08:30.

Mostly Malinois but GSD, Laekenois and a  Bouvier, none of em are show bred though ;)

Are you going? Is there a website, any more info? I have a cat show Sunday so am otherwise occupied :) but would be very interested in finding out anything interesting that went on with Malinois (and is there really Laekenois as well??!) -I do the breed notes for M & L for OD and any news are always so welcome, I like to include as many different activites as only possible. :)

Marianne

I shall be there, there are circa 12 dogs from Europe competing.  The White Dog will be Mick Tustain's Mali Ike (Jotunheim VIP CDex UDex WDex) who won the police regional competition at Brentwood, the Interservice competition at Rugby (equalling the record number of points previously held for 9 years) and who won his first PD open at Surrey in July.

A Laekenois is booked to come but only time will tell.

If you want I can give you a summary of the day's events.  John Rumble is organising it, he competes very successfully in Europe with his Malis.

regards

Out of interest Tohme, what is the White Dog?

I keep meaning to go to this but keep putting it off, this is the second year.

Lindsay
x

The White Dog is the one that does the run through in many disciplines.

Yes this year is the second time this event has run, it did not occur last year, the first one was excellent, the Bouvier was outstanding.

I see, thanks :)

Lindsay
x

Teri!!!!
Though must admit, my Mali seems a lot craftier (don't know about brainier than my Groen.!!).

Sarah.

Woops, forgot about you for a bit Sarah   Well, what the heck, at least I only insulted one of yours :rolleyes:  ;)

pssst don't draw any more attention to that remark or I'll be hung drawn and quartered at SKC :D

It's OK teri, I'll keep it to myself :D

Yeah - a show and obedience Champion from one litter - now THATS the way to do it :D

Yvonne

P.S. - retarded Teri !! - one of my black ones won their way out of beginners in obedience and got BOB in the breed ring at Newmarket this year - only 14 months old !! ( also just passed his silver Good Citizenship ) - yeah I know Brag Brag LOL ;)

Can someone tell me why dogs that do not comply with the breed standard(ie have a level topline aka to 99% people as the back of a dog but in essence is the topline as the back is from the withers to the end of the ribcage)

>Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. Withers long, of good height and well defined, joining back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back<

Just interested

  Not sure what you're querying MM - Teri

Straight backed GSDs

LOL, I thought it was GSDs but you don't seem to have completed the question maybe it's just me (very possible ;) ) but I keep re-reading it and there seems to be something missing........ :P

Teri

The question is why do people want a GSD with a level topline As I said 99% of people assume topline is the same as the back which it isn't the back ends at the end of the rib cage

Been looking at the dog on the front of Dog World which seems to be very overdone in rear angulation although it is stood not quite fully extended at the back(the non vertical leg between the hock joint & foot reveals this)& it has a very weak head in profile & lacks a reasonable stop.Wonder what the Hip score etc are as there is no mention & AKC GSDs are noted for their lack of hind stability due to the excessive angulation

Hi MM, thanks for the clarification!  Wasn't trying to be awkward  - I still can't get that out of what you wrote before

>Can someone tell me why dogs that do not comply with the breed standard(ie have a level topline aka to 99% people as the back of a dog but in essence is the topline as the back is from the withers to the end of the ribcage)

I need more caffeine :D  Just power washed the patio and have had several mouthfulls of grit so perhaps my grey cells are not working as well as they should.  Teri ;) 

Because most people consider the back of the dog to be the top of the body between the withers & the tail It isn't(in breed standard terms not veterinary) that is the topline, the back is between the withers & the start of the croup(where the ribs end) short backed dogs tend to have soft toplines as there are no ribs to support the topline

Beardies are a breed for example which like the GSD is longer than tall & the breed standard calls for a good length of rib, sadly like many so called "straight"backed GSDs these dogs have a short rib cage & in movement the topline dipped quite visibly. This has a knock on effect on the dogs stamina as energy has to be used in movement(some BC's are the same)

Working bred dogs rarely have this problem as dogs with soft toplines are not included in breeding programs

When the OP put working I wonder if they really meant working or obedience/trialling dogs, the two are not always the same

LOl Moonmaiden,

You and I seem to be on a different page :D  Thanks but I fully understand the anatomy, topline, locomotion etc of the canine - it was the wording of your original post as highlighted which had me stumped ;)  Couldn't quite see what the question was but with the inventive use (mentally) of  punctuation and rearranging of brackets it almost makes sense.

Cheers, Teri :)

You might Teri but here are at least 5 ticket GSD judges that don't ;) ie "lovely level topline as required by the breed standard":rolleyes:"correct length of back from withers to tailset""correct length of level topline ending in nice short moulded croup":O these are so called breed specialists too whose critiques have stuck in my mind

I think the classical was from a now dead all rounder"I was glad to find one level topline as is required, the breeders need to read the breed standard there is no need for a sloping topline"

Have read, seen and heard the kind you mean :(  I even heard a specialist in the BSD (which is obviously more moderate than the GSD) state "They should change the Breed Standard to say horizontal top line"

At £20+ an entry - I certainly won't be showing under that judge :P

Here's a good one I had to share even if it is going off subject now. A friend of mine showed a Red Merle BC last weekend. The judge came up and asked her what colour her dog was, and when told it was a Red Merle, then asked her how he should judge it ! Sounds like something that could happen at the local exemption, but no it was an open show.

Marianne

LOL if I show my puppy 99% of judges won;t know what to do with him because he is a smooth :) Already had one BC person asking me why I bought a X breed :rolleyes:

Huh, can beat you...

My mate who owns the dam to my Longhaired Weimaraner, was told that she was in the wrong class when she brought her longhair bitch into the Weimaraner ring at an Open Show....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doh !!!!! I had a BSD breed judge at Crufts ask me how I had qualified the black mali I was holding on the lead near the BSD rings  :rolleyes: she was a CC winning all black GSD !

ROFLMAO

LOL to say they went red when I put them right was an understatement !!!!  Good though !

Yikes :rolleyes:  PLEASE, PLEEEEAAASSE tell me it was an all rounder who just happened to be judging BSD ........................  

Nooo a BSD specialist LOLOLOLOL they give tickets but weren't judging at Crufts & no she didn't look like a BSD !

GORDON BENNETT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No not him his brother in law Mr Core Luvaduck  LOLOLOLOL they were very embarassed as they actually know me & that I have never ever had a mali !!! & I was with another CC BSD judge who knew the bitch was a GSD I hasten to add !

Maybe they'd forgotten their glasses at home or had visited the bar a bit too miuh -I sure HOPE so LOL!

I did a clanger years ago. I went into the Lab ring with my Golden! Mind you I was about to miss my class and just ran for the ring which happened to be full of yellow Labs and WAS next to the Goldens......

Marianne

You can be sure I never let them live it down LOLOLOL

:rolleyes: Was it your LH Weim that was in one of the dog papers last week? Stunning! :)

Yes, that was my bitch in the Our Dogs Weimaraner feature.

Thank you very much, she is quite a looker............

>It isn't(in breed standard terms not veterinary) that is the topline, the back is between the withers & the start of the croup(where the ribs end) short backed dogs tend to have soft toplines as there are no ribs to support the topline

MM, according to this the croup is the slope of the pelvis - ie it starts at the front of the ilium. The back/topline is generally considered to be from the withers to the front point of the ilium, and includes the area of the loins, between the end of the ribs and the pelvis..

As the German standard you posted earlier points out:

>The back, including the loins, is straight ...

>The withers must be long and high, sloping slightly from front to rear, defined against the back into which it gently blends without breaking the topline.

>The croup is long and slightly angled (approximately 23 degrees). The ileum and the sacrum are the foundation bones of the croup. Short, steep or flat croups are undesirable

Looks like a lab to me & if you read the GSD breed standard it calls for

>Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long & Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline<

Looking at the labrador which has a long back & short croup cannot be compared to a GSD diagram which I cannot find to scan & put on the net You can hardly call the "croup"on the labrador as long nor the back not too long(ergo relevatively short)

Find me a diagram of a GSD with the same annotation on it & you might have a discussion

BTW the wording is foundation bones of the croup not the croup consists of

MM, the croup (like the head, the tail, the hock, the stifle etc) is in the same place on all breeds of dog! ;) :p :D

Where is the GSD diagram ? The breed standard of a labrador does NOT call for a long croup in fact the croup is not even mentioned in the rather sketchy standard

>Forequarters

Shoulders long and sloping. Forelegs well boned and straight from elbow to ground when viewed from either front or side.

Body
Chest of good width and depth, with well sprung barrel ribs. Level topline. Loins wide, short-coupled and strong.

Hindquarters
Well developed, not sloping to tail; well turned stifle. Hocks well let down, cowhocks highly undesirable.<

I'm not going to argue I just cannot be bothered Everyone & his wife is an expert on GSDs & 99% of people on here prefer the long backed short crouped dogs with the dippy toplines in motion Many will quote dogs like Fenton of Kentonwood as having a straight back He didn't & neither did he have a straight topline He had the long weak back & topline popular in his time, what he did have was a fairly decent temperament-but not that of a bold working dog

Real Working GSD( which is the title of this thread) are different in 99% of cases to the show type even in Germany, my preference in my chosen breeds is the type that can work & do the job it should be bred to do & the original poster has been advised to go via BSA for one which is somewhere to star

There are the "working"obedience type GSDs which by & large have long coats(not much good in the rain & snow)bred to do obedience & not much else, several of the lines I know of can have temperament problems in pet home but are fine of trained intensively for obedience. The dogs I prefer are the working GSD like my German friend has happy & keen to work, but & it is a big but happy to live as a pet with basic training

MM, you don't need a separate diagram for each breed. The physical areas are in the same region in all, however, the different breeds call for different proportions between them. But the hock is still the equivalent of the human ankle, the withers is the point of the shoulder, the stifle is the knee and the croup is the area of spine with the ilium - not the area of spine over the loin, between the ribs and the pelvis.

Where did I say the croup was "over the ribs"?????????????It starts on GSDs as defined in the exam I took & passed as starting at the end of the back behind the end of the ribs & supporting vertebrae

I have never ever written the croup was over the ribs

I wasn't going to post again but you have totally misquoted me again

BTW where is the fallaway on the labrador diagram as you state one diagram fits all breeds ???  I can't find it at all so how do I use your one breed fits all to interpret this

>Back rather bony, muscular and free from any cavity, rising in a graceful curve with well balanced fallaway. Highest point of curve is situated over last rib. Curve is more pronounced in dogs than bitches. Loins broad and very powerful with plenty of muscular development. Fallaway long and well muscled. Width between hip bones at least 8 cm (3 ins)<.

>Where did I say the croup was "over the ribs"?????????????

Nowhere - and neither did I! So dobn't accuse me of misquoting! ;)

The area of the spine behind the ribs, over the loins, is not the croup. The croup is the same area in all breeds, crossbreeds and mongrels. GSDs are not an exception. However from what you say it seems likely that GSD breeders have been misunderstanding anatomy.