Can anyone please advise me at approximately what age would you start to use a check chain ? 

I wouldn't start at all.  My dogs were trained using a flat collar and walk nicely keeping a loose lead.

I have used a semi check and full check chain before, so long as the full is used correctly it can be useful if need be however I would always start of training on a semi (half) check collar as in most cases this is successful - plus dogs are not able to slip them like the flat collars.  You can get a variety of sizes and they are great for pups as they have a tendancy to wriggle away - possibly running in to a road etc!

Hi.  Why do you feel you want to use one at all?

Check chains have now been proven once and for all to damage permanently a dog's throat, larynx and spinal cord.  Why would you want to do that do your dog?

There are many other humane products on the market these days to deal with pulling, such as Gentle Leaders and Haltis. 

If you do want to use some kind of check at least use a half-check (a collar which is part fabric, part chain). 

Personally, I wouldn't use one either. I have managed to train one large dog to walk nicely using a normal flat collar and lead and am making good progress with my giant breed puppy in the same way. Patience and perserverance is really all that is required (oh, and a pocket full of treats at the start helps too :) )

If used properly they won't, the only times I would think where this kind of damage has been done is when the chain hasn't been put on correctly.

THough have to say I don't use them, though have in the past without pain, suffering etc. to my dogs and from an early age too.

I agree SWD, I have used them before with great results, if fitted properly and not incorrectly they become a 'check' chain and not a choke!

Just want to ad that my 3 1/2 year old rottie bitch was never trained with treats, she loves knowing that I am pleased with her!  We use a half check collar that is loose most of the time but as I said before I just don't trust a flat collar as a dog can slip them - all to often I have seen this, a semi-check is loose when the dog is not pulling but you have the added security should they decided to become spooked etc!  I don't tell anyone not to use treats to train as I think they can be useful but I don't always have a pocket full of treats and don't always want to be weighed down by smelly treats.  If I go training classes I have some tit bits but only reward occasionally as she works perfectly well without them.  There are many avenues to training and what works for one person won't work for another, I have never used a flat collar other than for an old dog which had a bio flow collar which was on 24/7 but a semi check is put on her when out on a walk.....just in case :) 

As the others have said a full check would not be my first option and there are various head halters out there but my bitch seems to pull more with these on so it just goes to show each dogs reacts differently.

Good luck with your dog and try various things to see what works for you.

Twice I have seen a dog being cut out of a check chain with bolt cutters from where the links got caught and it wouldn't loosen again. In both cases, which happened on separate occassions, the dogs would have died within minutes if the first time my now ex-trainer, who was giving me a private lesson, had not had a pair in her car, and the second time it was close to where work was being done on a house (which I was driving past, stopped to see what had happened) and a builders van outside had some in. The builder was quite shocked to see his equipment all over the pavement from where a man had ransacked it to find something to cut the dog out with but he was quite understanding later!

I would not touch them with a barge pole. Both owners had been using them for years and had never had problems before, it was nothing they had done it was just bad luck. Needless to say both swore they would never use them again. :(

Yeah I agree there could be problems with them but I have also seen a dog slip its collar and take it's self for a walk/run, one accasion the dog got in to the road and luckily escaped out of harms way.  There a problems with most collars and accidents can happen which is why I think you should try different ones to get the best type for you and your dog.  (not a dig at you colliesrus, just wanted to point out that I have seen problems with collars that you would assume harmless) :)

One of my collies had a habit of doing that at first so he wore a half check, no way he could get out of it no way he could strangle himself either. Although there are moments when I wish he would! ;) :)

When I got old enough to want them for hanging baskets.

I have always used flat leather collars on my dogs, if fitted correctly they cannot back out of them, however leather does stretch so you do need to keep a check on this.

There is no need to use a check chain on any dog for any discipline and there are plenty of studies to demonstrate the physiological harm they do to the cervical verterbrae etc

The use of a check chain is to "correct", if you train correctly you will never need to "correct" :D

IMHO there is NO "correct" way to use a check chain.

A collar and lead should only  be there for safety purposes, to connect you to the dog when you walk next to the road etc.

However, it is down to personal choice

I use a half check for showing and training my Cavaliers and the American cocker, and an ordinary buckle collar for going out on walks. In the house they wear nothing thanks to the puppy which chews the collars up!!

2 of my pups (sold to someone else) managed to get caught up in their choke chains. 1 was slowly choking to death before the fire brigade managed to free them. I haven't used them for years, and have no intention of using them ever.

Never & haven't used one since 1964 when I trained a dog that had been "broken"by a choker trainer

Tohme

That is the best use for check chains that I have ever heard!! 

Check Chains ought to be taken off all pet shop shelves.  I have lost count of the number of people who turn up at classes using these things on their dogs.  Most of them have used them on previous dogs but they do not realise they are on the wrong way round!

I have yet to find a pet shop that sells these abominations and gives instruction on the correct way to fit and use them.  Consequently, dogs suffer abuse and damage by their poor ignorant owners.

Long live hanging baskets!!

surely if a flat collar is fitted properly then the dog should not be able to get out of it.  And correct me if im wrong, but the half check collar is designed so that the material part fits properly round the neck when the chain is tight, and not any tighter like a choke chain, so therefore if u are saying that a flat collar can be backed out of, then so can a half check.

i would never use a choke chain, for the reasons already stated, if a dog is trained properly then it shouldnt need a choke chain. 

I was on a thread on another board in which the Essex case was brought up;  if anyone remembers, the dogs in this case were trained with check chains forcefully (thankfully as I understand it many police forces have reviewed their training techniques). It seems that one dog was donated to this same force and he was returned to his owner after, but sadly his spine was damaged, presumed due to training techniques with the check chain, and he was put to sleep.

If a check chain is ever used, it should never be used to jerk a dog back because it can cause injury - who would want to risk that? I speak as someone who, back in 1980, used check chains very forcefully :( I would never touch one personally.

Lindsay
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I think what is meant is that most people have normal collars on way too loose.  I(f fitted properly they cannot bome off, but in a long coat they are dificult to turn to fin the D ring for the lead etc.

I use half checks for this reason as you can bring the lead attaching part out of the coat, and with their thick ruffs they don't get damaged once the dogs walk on them loosely, but if they tighten up they can't get loose.

I used check chains years & years ago.  Haven't used them for years now.  I thought they were out of date now anyhow??.  

I use either a flat collar or half check.  My dogs don't wear collars in the house and the half check is easier to slip on when we go out.  The other reason is that I bought them years ago, nice red ones and they never wore them so I thought I'll get some use out of them, otherwise they'd have normal collars on. 

A lot of dog training clubs have banned them now- the one I go to certainly will not allow a dog to wear one.

Marianne

Don't get a choke , get a prong.

No, Manny, No, No Nooooo a thousand times NO

remember that chat we had about no water ;)  prongs - worse

trust me :P

But but but , if she is really deciding on getting a choke she'd rather have a much safer prong! Better yet , don't get either :p

"Don't get either" -   Well said Manny   We're gonna make a Brit out of you yet ;)

I've always wanted to be a fuzzy hat guard :p

i was advised early on by people with a lot more experience than me (i had none) to use a choke chain , and later on when it wasnt going as well as i hoped,a prong collar. I didnt do either as i felt it would hurt him and i stuck with the halti.  i have achieved a lot now  and i feel happy that i trusted my instincts.

Gentle leader can work :)

That's my boy :P

well two things really, firstly what the hell is a "prong" sounds like an instrument of torture....and secondly i went and bought a half check last night and pleased to say that my Rottweiler was actually much better than on the full check chain. Thanks to everyone for the advice and input, i'm so glad i signed up to join this site.

keep safe everyone
x

A prong does look like a torture device.  It has inward pointing spikes (not sharp but still made of metal) which stick into the dog's neck.  If the dog doesn't pull, the spikes just rest there and cause no discomfort but if the dog pulls, it basically pulls the spikes into its neck.  The thing is - a prong collar actually looks and sounds much worse than a choke chain, but scientific tests based on post mortems of dogs trained using either a prong or a choke, show that dogs which are trained using a prong suffer no damage to their throat, spine etc, whereas dogs trained using a choker do suffer this.  So, although a prong collar actually looks worse than a choke chain, it is actually less damaging to the dog.  But I agree with those people who say that neither should ideally be used. 

I'm concerned about these post-mortems and their findings. Post-mortems are generally only done to discover the cause of an unexpected death - so something was wrong anyway? How many thousands of dogs have been trained using check chains when young and have gone on to live to a healthy old age? Of course, they're not post-mortemed (is that a word?) so the possibility that there was absolutely no damage to their necks goes unrecorded! ;)

I think the post mortem dogs were all part of a study Jeangenie, but if I remember rightly it's also hard to get to the bottom of who did the study.

There was a staffie at the Wag and Bone the other day; I wasn't there but was told it had a prong collar on and, sadly, scabs all round its neck.

I think the whole problem with training dogs not to pull on lead is that it takes an awful lot of patience and training and many either don't have the knowledge or the time and so use something they feel helps with the problem.

Lindsay
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The use of a choke or a prong demonstrates one thing, that the owner does not have the skills and knowledge to train without causing at best discomfort to his dog.

When one is uncomfortable, one is not in a position to learn, whether you are a human or a dog.

so the presence of discomfort during training only produces conflict and confusion within the dog, the exact opposite to what you want.

It is perfectly possible to train the highest drive dog in Schutzhund, Patrol dog work without the need to resort to any tools of this type or worse.

The reason most do not, is that they lack the know how and often have to introduce these tools to undo the damage and bad habits caused by poor training.

When used effectively, I'm not convinced that a check chain causes either conflict or confusion within the dog. Rather, I'd suggest that it provides absolute clarity to the dog about what is and isnt acceptable.  This enables a very rapid solution to poor behaviour on the lead.

Having said that, in the majority of peoples hands a check chain does little more than provide an effective means of strangling the dog whilst it continues to pull. A check chain on its own, does not provide a solution to a dog pulling, and is only useful in conjuction with a specific training exercise that requires timing, and experience. There is no need to be damaging or hauling the dog about. Most (but not all) dogs accept effective use happily, but seeing poor and ineffective use isnt pleasant to watch, let alone for the dog.

Havoc, I think I know what you mean re methods of using them, but as you say they are usually either used for choking (not intentionally of course!) or for hauling a dog about. I used to use them fairly hard to drag a dog back and did find them effective, my timing was good and i was totally consistent, but I really wasn't fair on the dogs I was walking. I also recall seeing a beautiful GSD bitch pulled back hard time and time again - she was walked for 15 minutes a day, nost on lead, no wonder she pulled.

Lindsay
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About this study, Lindsay - surely they didn't kill young dogs simply to look for potential neck damage? If the dogs died at old age, then I wouldn't think there was any way of confirming that any neck damage was due to the sort of collar used in their youth.

You're absolutely right about people not having the knowledge, will or patience to be able to train without using force.

Tohme , i've seen siberian huskys that were very impossible to correctly leash train. Dragging was what they were bred to do. Usually they calm down with age though but many don't like to wait.

Hi Jeangenie,

I'm trying to remember - it was a study often quoted by The Menace :P to support the use of electric collars.
As far as I recall, the dogs were "selected" and a post mortem was done on them after they died naturally - but I couldn't swear to it that this is what happened. I believe the collars were used all the time during the dog's life.

Lindsay
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>As far as I recall, the dogs were "selected" and a post mortem was done on them after they died naturally - but I couldn't swear to it that this is what happened. I believe the collars were used all the time during the dog's life<

Like many others, I've done an extensive search to try to find this study and it doesn't seem to exist. It's quoted by many and several websites cite it, but when asked for the original study or details of the author/date etc, all goes quiet.

Referring to whether a choke chain used correctly should actually be called a check chain - isn't this just semantics? This type of chain has a choking action whether it is momentary as in a check or prolonged as in a throttle.

Prong collars, from what I've seen of them, at best threaten the dog with a painful consequence, at worst they give a painful consequence. Yes, they are a quick solution, but a painful one.

Loose lead training is a bore and a chore in the early stages, but with just a little bit of patience, our friends can be trained without pain and very effectively.

>There was a staffie at the Wag and Bone the other day; I wasn't there but was told it had a prong collar on and, sadly, scabs all round its neck

I thought prong collars were illegal in this country so how could the staff have had one on?

>I thought prong collars were illegal in this country so how could the staff have had one on?

Like just about everything else that's illegal or less desirable Colliesrus, it's probably been bought off the net :(

There is no law against the use of prong collars in the UK, they are not illegal.

Just a question.
Are the nylon choke collars just as bad?

Hi Lazydaze,

Yes and No :)  A chain is harsher on the tissue, muscle and vertebrae however nylon can easily become entangled particularly in thick/long hared breeds and it does not "ease off" in the way a chain would.  When in the show ring I used to use nylon slip collars - probably what you're describing - but one did once get caught in the hair of my dog (not in a taught position thankfully) and it put me off them for life.  For the show ring I now use leather slip collars instead for adults and use leather half checks on youngsters (marginally less trained so inclined to throw themselves about :D )

I only ever use leather slip leads for regular exercising them but fortunately am nowhere near roads etc and it's more for putting them off and on easily than anything else.  When exercising away from well known home walks they wear half checks.

Regards, Teri :) 

Martingale collars are great for dogs that like to jerk.

I use slip leads as well , much easier!!!

Thanks Teri.
I had a fright with a normal collar on my older dog, as i was locking to front door behind me she slipped out of her collar.
I went in to panick mode, as we have a busy road to the right of us and our street to the left. she went left thankgod.
Shouted top of my voice DOWN and she laid down.
Dont no what the neigbours thought though lol

Jane

Manneyg
What are martin gale collars?

A martingale on a horse goes around the neck and between the front legs. I would hazzard a guess martingale collars on dogs are a similar design, although could be completely wrong as I have never heard of them before.

I thought they were the USA/Canadian equivalent of the half check collar?  Only a guess.

Yes they are what the US call half check colars.