Hi ya,
I am lucky to have a 9 wek old Lab puppy who is virtually dry at nights, I let her out once during the night and she goes and then goes happily back in to her crate and goes back to sleep.

She asks to go out during the day when she is running around the house and in the evenings.

My problem is that when I go out and leave her shut in her crate i.e. if I am shopping etc to keep her away from the big dogs she poohs in her crate every time as if it is a statement.

She can see the other dogs as they are by her but I do not want to leave them all together unsupervised.

Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome.??
I suppose I should be lucky nearly having a 9 week old vitrually house trained but this is getting annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!

OH MY GOSH you are soooooooooooooo lucky.  My 10 week old Lab isn't nearly clean yet!!!  Re the crate mine hates hers too - no noise at all though if we don't actually shut her in!

Sorry that's not much help!  Just couldn't resist telling you how lucky you are!!

Nx

Have you done anything towards training her to settle in her crate when you are around?  Going in at night when she has a full tummy and a busy day behind her should be relatively easy, but she needs to be taught about settling in her crate during the day.  A good excercise session before you go out - training and mental stimulation rather than mad off lead running around will help her to settle because she'll be a little more tired.

She is only 9 weeks so good exercise is out of the question as I care for my dogs joints!!
She has mental stimulating toys in the crate with her also, i.e. kongs stuffed etc but I really think that she thinks that she is missing something by being in there!!!!!!!!

Will just have to carry on with small times in there during the day and hopefully she will re-adjust herself.
It will be easier I think when the exercise can be stepped up a little also.

I realise joints are an issue - but the idea is to put her in her crate already tired and ready to sleep rather than put her in there still active and expect her to take the opportunity to stimulate herself mentally once she's in there - mental stimulation is even more tiring to a puppy than physical - which is why 10 min training sessions should be the max.

OFcourse she thinks she's missing out on something when she's in there - especially if you have other dogs who are loose in the house - it's only natural.

I cannot let her rule my life.
  She does go in there when she has had playtime and is tired but will not except being there.
She should be able to accept being in there if the other dogs are within view.
My problem is that she is doing this as some sort of attention seeking game.
I know put her in there also when I am in the house so that she gets to know that I am not always going out. Once she is bigger then I can leave her out of the cage all the time, when she can take the knocks and bangs.
Last night she was put to bed at 10.45 and she went right through the night till 6 am without any wet or pooh!  or a murmur,I don't think I am doing that bad really,

If she is only nine weeks it is very early to expect her to accept the crate while other things are going on around her.

A friend of mine has just got over the crate training issue, it took about three weeks for her young pup to accept it.  Try putting a blanket over the crate, just leaving the door without covering it, she found that helped.  I always found it helped mine too.

You are halfway there with her accepting it at night, just carry on and don't give in, you will get there.

Whilst I agree you can not let her rule your life - to acheive this state you will have to put some work into it first......

Bella, you're doing really well, my pup won't even accept her crate at night and is still doing at least one wee and one poop in the kitchen at night, I'm going to wait until we are out walking her and until she is about 4 months old and can hold her bladder before we try and shut her in the crate again.

Don't beat yourself up about it, sounds like you need a break, why don't you leave her in the crate and go out for an hour, you won't be able to hear the fuss then?  I know it sounds a bit mean but in the first week it was the only way I could trust my self not to give in to Kiera - she was always absolutely fine - allbeit not in the damn crate!!

Soldier on girl you're doing great by the sounds of it!
Nx

What you also have to take into account is that she may wel only need to go once during the night, but during the day a puppy whilst awake witll need to go every half hour or so, so it is very likely that she will dirty the crate while you are out, which is why I wouldn;t use it in that way if hosetrainig is the goal until she is a lot older.  I would attach a puppy pen with paper in it so that she has somewher to toilt an the crate to use as a bed.

In my house with no cable to chew I would leave her loose in kitchen with the others seperated from ehr with a babygate, though to be honest I ahve never split pups and adults up when I have gone out.

Brainless,
She is house trained if you read my posts earlier, it is just a barrier I have to get over,
I have never been a lover of crates and have only resorted to them in my last 2 dogs,

When she grows out of this crate there will be no more and she can live like the other dogs with a free range but have to try and protect the house somehow.

As I have a new house with a new kitchen you can apprecaite ther is no way I am leaving her loose with expensive wooden units and I believe that this encourages them to chew anyway.

I am careful about the knocks and bangs that they receive and they are only together when they are supervised to avoid any accidents.

What I mean by housetraining is when the voluntary control is fully established which won't be until 5 or 6 months of age.  Until then when they need to go they need to go. :D

At night the production of urine etc is reduced, but not so in the day time, so she will NEED to go, and at 9 weeks very often, so I don't think she is doing this for attention. JMPOV

Hi Bella,

I agree with Brainless on this - at 9 weeks you will have to come to the realisation that your puppy is not actually housetrained, fact!  A housetrained dog is one who not only asks out when needed to and has no accidents indoors, but one that has full control of its bladder and bowels, i.e. can hold on until let out.  At 9 weeks, regardless of breed, individual intelligence and the best efforts of everyone in the household, it is physically impossible for a puppy to have proper bladder and bowel control. 

You're obviously doing a great job with taking your pup out regularly and observing her correctly in order to avoid accidents during the day and have clearly got the timing sorted overnight - so VERY well done :) - but at the age your pup is at you cannot expect it to hold off when unattended during the day ;) 

This aside, unless you gradually build up the period of time you crate her and only put her in the crate after she has eliminated both, you are guaranteed to come home to a puppy that has soiled in the crate and that is becoming increasingly distressed while in there.

You say you don't want to let her rule your life - at this stage my pups do rule my life because it's what we put in during these early weeks and months that forms what we get in the future and how quickly we achieve a loving bond with a well trained, well adjusted family pet to be proud of.  Regards, Teri :)

pooing in the crate is not a problem because there is no way she would be able to hold it in while ur gone. As for whining and crying , close the door and walk away.

I think you may have all got the wrong end of the stick.

When she is in the crate in the day it is only for a matter of 1/2 hour at the most and she has the run of the garden and the house, I am sure that this is an attention seeking act, I do not worry about the crying and the whinging at all, in fact she is very quiet, it is the fact that she is performing this Mammoth task when unattended.
She is not distressed in the cage as she is normally very quiet in there but is just seems a bit of a coincidence that she does this when I am going out for a small while when she has already done a pooh in the garden about 5 mins earlier!!!
She was put  in there yesterday while I was outside as an experiment, there was no noise but 10 mins later there was a present waiting for me!!!!!!!!!!
Will just have to keep on trying different methods

Hi again Bella,

>I think you may have all got the wrong end of the stick

Perhaps, but posters can only respond on the basis of info provided ;)  What does come across from your posts is that you are frustrated and blaming the pup for things not going to plan - at 9 weeks your puppy is not responsible for it's actions.

If your puppy is defecating almost immediately on being put into the cage it is NOT in defiance or attention seeking - it is a reflex action caused by anxiety.   Your puppy can neither hold onto nor force out bodily waste at this age.

IMO you are expecting far too much from an exceptionally young puppy and your impatience to cover all the bases will simply backfire at this rate :(   Effective housetraining to the degree of the puppy asking out, having few if any accidents and remaining dry overnight is only as good as we - the owners - make it.  That means vigilance on our part to avoid accidents and timing late night feeds and time spent outdoors to ensure as far as possible that the puppy is comfortable overnight for say up to max of 7 hours.  That you have achieved this so far shows that yes, you are being particularly good at keeping an eye on your puppy, but it does not mean that the puppy as yet has learned much.  That comes with patience, consistency and a minimum of about 2-3 weeks of owner dedication :)  Anything prior to that is a mixture of good timing and good luck!

Unless you accept that you have not yet given your puppy sufficient time and patient training to feel happy and secure in his cage during your absences, you will not overcome this problem I'm afraid.  Regards, Teri

I can agree on this one! 9 weeks was it?; i'm more worried about getting my dog well socialized then focusing on potty training now but i try my best to keep them from going in the house!

Hi Bella.

I'm responding in relation to your comment regarding your kitchen.  This has struck a cord with me as I think I can empathise with your position.  As I've stated before, I've got a 10 week old Lab.  Other people wound me up to such an extent about them being such 'destructive chewers' that I thought I had no choice other that to crate train her from day one.  We had 2 over night episodes where I put her in her crate and she went mad and eliminated everywhere and was generally in a right state. Note - I understand you don't have a problem with nights and I am very jealous!!! ;)  After this we opted to give her the free run of the kitchen so that she could get of her bed to toilet on newspaper and risk the kitchen.  My point is - are you really putting her in the crate during the day to keep her away from your other dogs or to protect the kitchen?  And the only reason I ask is that our puppy hasn't destroyed anything of value in the kitchen, and we've got wooden furniture and wooden units, etc.  All she's chewed at is a wooden doorstop in the shape of a cat I wonder if she's going to try it on the real things - all 3 of them :D

Admitedly I do have a spray round the bottoms of the units and furniture with bitter apple spray from time to time - but she hasn't touched them.  I tend to bring cardboard boxes home from work and give her a filled Kong and other interesting things to use her mouth on while I'm out....

I just thought it might put your mind at rest to know she might not decide that destroying the kitchen was the way to go - perhaps you could have a little trial run without the crate door closed and say go out for 20 minutes........
good luck anyway!
Nx

Hi Nickyxh,

A very good post and a positively (in every sense of the word ;) ) lovely attitude too :)

Even some of us with several dogs have nice houses and expensive kitchens!

Teri  :)

Hi Teri

I try! and blimey there's a lot to learn when you're new to dog ownership :D :D.  Kiera is taking to her crate - whenever I give her something new she runs straight in there and hides it :) I have to wait until she's not looking so I can retrieve it if it's something she can't be left alone with :) !!  My fur baby just doesn't like being shut in so lets hope she continues to have respect for my kitchen - otherwise I might need a new one next year

Teri - would you be kind enough to give me your opinion on my post on 'Feeding' titled 'Fussy Lab'.

Cheers
Nx

NO I AM NOT GETTING FRUSTRATED ETC regarding this puppy.  I am getting tired about the negative comments.

I only leave her for roughly about 20 minutes a time.

I only asked for advice not to be told how frustrated I am.

I have owned Labs for 20 odd years, surely I know a bit about them.

I am only tring to protect her from the rough and tumble of the other dogs as I want to breed from both bitches and the chewing does not really come into it, after all I have had the plaster chewed from my other bitch when she was younger.
Sorry, I only asked for some input from you but once again it has changed from a nice site into a "I know it all site"
I only wanted some advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not to be lectured.

If it's any consolation, one of mine was anxious about being in the car, and for months would poo 10 minutes into a journey. Once she was more settled and less anxious it stopped.
:)

Thank you very much  for some positive feedback.

I am going to overcome this and she is at present in the crate with a stuffed Kong and it is all quiet.

So glad that you're not frustrated - although what's with the shouting then

Your attitude unfortunately is typical of thankfully a select few posters who seek information, throw any and all well intentioned advice back in the face of anyone who dares to reply and then slings insults about being lectured :rolleyes:   Seen it too often - it's boring.

With your 20 odd years experience you haven't learned that puppies need trained - think that says more about you than me.  Good day.  Teri 

Gosh Bella,

That's a bit over the top.  I was just trying to help with the benefit of my very limited experience :(.  If you've owned Labs for over 20 years I'd have thought you should have know what you were doing by now ;).  I can't see any negative comments either in my responses or in other peoples.  I also can't see why you'd need to lock a puppy up at all if you only ever leave the room for 20 minutes at a time, sounds like you're looking for problems to me but hey what would I know :D

sorry - Teri just blotted my positive copy book (that didn't last long did it :D :D :D)

Here we go again,!!!!!!!!!!I do not lock her up when I leave the room if you only would take the time and read the posts carefully.

It is when I have to go out shopping and that is all of about 20 minutes or I am doing something outside where I cannot give her the 100% concentration that a puppy needs in the early stages.

I care alot about the joints etc and the rough and tumble of the puppies and would never forgive myself if anything un-toward was to happen that is why she is put away in the crate away from the other dogs.

I have always hated the idea of crate training, but I do need to leave her on her own for a while and I am not some person who has dogs and then goes out to work!!!!!!!!! all day with no company whatsoever

I was asking in the first place if anyone had this sort of problem and would appreciate comments from people who have, not people that think they know best!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Bella, I'm no experienced one but have had similar problems to you with my dog.  Whenever we left him in the kitchen and went out he'd mess on the floor, even if we were only gone for 3 minutes and even if he'd had a poo just minutes before that outside.

He was getting stressed, and messing seemed to calm him.  We stopped it by simply shutting him in the living room, not the kitchen, as it had become a 'habit' for him.  Why don't you try shutting your dog in the living room, away from the others, but also away from his crate.  Maybe that would help?  As I said I'm not an expert, just saying what worked for us.  Toby's not messed for about 2 months or so now and he used to mess every single day.

Thanks, may well try that one but she is so good at night and runs to her crate and also has a soothie for comfort, (the ones that heat up in to microwave) tried that in the day but no go she poohs on it, and I know it is not an anxiety thing but a (lets try this on) thing!!!  If it was anxiety she would not be settled at night.

I never knew a puppy could produce so much "pooh" in so little time LOL!

Don't be fooled into thinking that she's not stressed.  Toby didn't show any signs of being stressed at all, didn't whine (we video'd him) chew or anything, and sometimes he'd be fine in the kitchen, but it was obvious in the end that he just associated the kitchen with something not nice, and purely didn't like being put there.  I often thought it was a sort of 'I'll show you not to leave me alone' type of thing, but like people pointed out, dogs don't think like that :)  She may just have formed a habit like Toby did.  I guess it's like a child - if they like picking up ornaments off the shelf, then they'll do it every time they're near them, but if you move the ornaments so they can't reach them - they won't grab for them!  Hope that makes sense!!!

I'll probably get told off by others for giving such bad advice now!!!!!  Only saying what worked for us - it's worth a shot surely?!  You only have to try it once, and if she messes on your carpet, then you'll have to move onto the next thing!!

Get over yourself Bella.  Perhaps you should ask for advice from people who have only had dogs for longer than you have.  I didn't make any inflammatory comments in my posts I was merely tring to empathise with you. 

I hope you find someone on here who is worthy of giving you any help as clearly I'm not worthy :P

Nickyxh

Have you got or had a dog that does the same as mine????????
If so then I would listen to your comments, as I was asking for advice from people who had come across the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! like Keely above.

BTW Bella, what makes you think the rest of us don't have any experience of raising puppies (all be it with different priorities and no 'posh kitchen')

As a matter of fact I have, as I stated earlier - a 10 week old Lab who has the same problem day and night, indoor crate and outdoor kennel. But given the tone of this thread I'd prefer not to make any further contribution.
Good luck with your puppy.

I'm sorry, but this pup is 9 weeks old, how long have you had it? a week??? 2 maybe??? and your already frustrated because it is doing a poo at this age? I think one word springs to mind.... 'patience'

Im not normally this blunt but your attitude to other people trying to help you is awful! People are just trying to figure out your situation, we cannot see your house or your day to day routines.....

No,
I asked if anyone else was or has been in this situation and can relate to it instead of trying to tell me "it is impossible for a puppy to be house trained at 9 weeks" etc.

I work hard with my puppies in both play and learning and to me I think that the fact that she  sits,  is lead trained, and house trained is not a particularly bad feat.
I start from day 1 and I teach as I mean them to go on.

As I see it, by not locking her up when you just leave the room, you aren't giving her the chance to learn how you DO want her to behave - puppies (as I'm sure you know) do not come readily equipped with a little book entitled 'those crazy humans and what to do to please them' - they're like children - wired up to use every device in their repetoir to get what they feel they need - it's up to us to teach them that slowly, they can aquire the skills to act as a normal adult canine member of a human family.
They do not automatically know that when you shut them in a crate, with other dogs loose around them, that you will return shortly and release them.  The more opportunities she has to enjoy her crate when introduced to it relaxed and ready for sleep because her little brain has been working really hard, the quicker she will learn that is what a crate is for - it's like putting children to bed when they are not tired - it just aint' going to work, and tempers will be lost, which does NOTHING for your relationship, wether it's a human child or a 'furkid' ;)

So you are telling me that when I leave a room or go outside then I must lock her up each time, surely she will get even more confused with this.

As we are in and out, she must learn that this is a safe haven like it is at night and I suppose only time will tell.

Hi Bella

I've just found this thread.  It seems to me that some questions haven't been asked because it's all become a bit inflammatory and argumentative.

So - to help us to help you:

When you first introduced the crate to your pup, how did you go about it?

Do you regularly hide little treats in the crate so the pup comes to think of it as a pleasant place where surprise nice things hide?

What do you do when you come back and discover a poop in the crate?  Do you say nothing and let the pup out, do you scold the pup or do you do something else?

When you take the pup outside to toilet, do you give a treat when she does it in the right place, or do you just praise?

When you go out of the house (which is when you say it happens) do you put your coat on and go out a different door to when you go upstairs?  That is - can the dog tell from your behaviour that you are going out and not upstairs to bed?  (If this is the case and she is fine all night when you're in bed then to me it doesn't sound like a crate training problem at all, but a separation anxiety problem.)

Do you have a play session and a training session with your pup before you put her to bed, using treats and positive reinforcement?

I'm not going to comment on the problem at the moment because I think all those are essential questions that need to be answered first. 

Right I will try to answer these in order, by yes and no if you get my meaning,

She had been in a crate previous to me me having her as to protect her from the other bigger dogs of the breeder and then in a crate in the car to come down here, ( not with me)

Yes I do and she has frozen Kongs, tripe sticks etc as I always give treats when putting her in the crate to make it a nice experience for her.

Say nothing and put the pup outside, I NEVER hit or scold my pups as I do not believe in smacking as it gets you no where, and it is like punishing when it is too late.

Yes I always treat her for doing "things" outside i.e. 1 little tiny treat or a choc drop.

No I never put a coat on too hot at the mo, my bag is in the car I only have one door to go out of. the only thing that springs to mind is that at night is is dark and she may put  2 and 2 together that this is sleep time and that is why she is so good at night.  I never leave a light on, but during the day it is light.

Yes I do, she has both play with me and the other dogs and training sessions are done alone for complete attention.  These work very wel.
I do these about 3 times a day, and I always use small rewards.

Hope this helps.

Well, that all sounds excellent so I don't really have much to say except keep doing it all!  Perhaps it's just one of those things and as time goes on and she gets mentally and physically more mature, it will just stop by itself. 

I'd keep an eye on whether or not it's separation anxiety though.  In fact, when you do a training session, try putting her in the crate, and going outside for one second, coming back in and (if she's quiet and good) dropping a treat into the crate, then letting her out, ask for a behaviour or two (sit for eg), reward that, then pop her back in the crate and go out for 5 seconds - keep doing this a few times every time you train and build up how long you are outside for.  (Start walking up the road and back, for eg, if you get bored standing outside!)  This would be good for separation training anyway and if she's messing because she's anxious that you've gone out, it should help with that too.

Have you actually done anything towards crate training her IN YOUR HOUSE - which is very different to the house she was born and raised in.  Dogs do not generalise, and just because she was taught to do something under one set of circumstances, doesn't necessarily mean she knows she has to do it under the new ones, unless you teach her........

What about covering the crate and pulling the curtains so it is more like night time?

from what ive read, it sounds like ur pup may have a seperation anxiety problem.. or.. she is getting anxious because she is being confined whilst she can see the other dogs playing?
You say you do not want to shut her in the kitchen because of expensive units, but perhaps if u could try this once by shutting her in the kitchen without the crate away from the other dogs and see if this helps?
Another idea is to perhaps shut the other dogs out of the room that the puppy is confined in.

If it is a seperation anxiety problem, which is does sound like it is. I kno your pup does not mess at night, but as others have said she may realise that when she is shut in during the day she knows u are going out and gets anxious.  I would start to train her in this aspect, ie, go out the front door, come back in and let her out and praise her, each time u do this increase the time by 2 minutes so that you are gradually increasing the time and she will get used to the idea that u always come back.

I can understand you are worried about rough and tumble, but have u tried just allowing her to be with the other dogs for the 20 mins u go out and see what results you get.  It might be worth a try, but you cant protect ur pup forever and surely during the day she is playing rough and tumble when she is not in her crate anyway?

I have an 18 week old retriever who has been crate trained from day 1.  I work part-time and did not want to leave him in the house alone unsupervised.  When left, he did occassionally poo in the crate - usually at night though. When I've been with him we've worked hard on housetraining and now I would say hes's fully trained, asking to go out, dry at night etc.  However, on two occassions last week he got into my bedroom and messed on the floor - he'd already been out and he was only in the room for a matter of minutes.  I make sure my room is always closed now!!  He has spent several hours at a time in his crate and he has been perfectly happy.  I too have a new kitchen and as my house has always been a  bit of a mess I would like to keep the kitchen in one piece for a while as I couldnt afford to replace it!!  Maybe because he has a routine of being in his crate he doesnt object to going in it.  Even on my days off, specially early on, I always put him in the crate for at least an hour to keep things consistant.
I read very good advice on one site for working dogowners which suggested this.
To be honest, Im sure your dog will settle down in time.  I think we all get a bit worked up about our dogs - however much knowledge and experience one has I dont think anybody can profess to be an expert on every dog - they are all different.  We all know our own dogs and thats it!!
Good Luck Bella!!

Thanks for your reply.  I am peservering and it is working, one thing though is that she will travel happily in the car in the back with the other dog loose with her and not in the crate, but if in the crate will shout, scream and pooh, so it gives me some indication as to where I am going.

I am glad that you appreciate that kitchens do not come cheap and yes it would be nice to keep it in one piece and have somewhere nice to sit and eat!!!!!!!!!!! that is not doggified!!!!  Have been very lucky with the other pups they have not attempted to chew it at all but there is always one and this may be the one or may be not who knows???????

I will carry on the way I have been going and am beginning to get to know her little likes and dislikes and yes we do know our own dogs and get to know their little ways of doing things, not every dog likes a crate and as I said in an earlier post I have never been a lover of them.

Which is the other site that you read the good advice on I would love to go and visit it please????

Thanks for the reassurance and advice and will keep up the good work.