I dont know if this is the right board to post this on however here we go.....
A while ago I was looking for a blue roan bitch cocker spaniel to start showing and the possibility of breeding. I asked advice looked around and eventually forund my little girl a heck of a drive away, but if you want the right one you will go anywhere for it.
What a beauty I have, I agreed to have her on breeding terms and paid half the price of the pup. She is so much parrt of our family now and she is ready for her first show!! now here is where it goes wrong....
I took her to a well known breeder who lives near to get her cut properly,when 1i1 went to collect her he looked very serious and said I needed to take her to the vet, she is Hermaphrodite !!!! the vet has confirmed this. I dont know if this will have any health implications for her , I know i cant breed now, and assume I cant show her either. I have spoken to the breeder who said he would take her back if i wanted. she is so much one of the pack now but also completely not what we bought all those plans, and what happens when she get older and the hormones start, she is 6 mths now.... advice please, what would you do , 1 if you had bought her. 2 as breeders if you had bred her..
big choices aarrgh
John  

I've never heard of this in dogs (quite usual in goats) so I "googled" it, and the only non-porn () reference to it is to a lost blue roan cocker spaniel in Dagenham, posted on Champdogs by Kerioak in 2001 - here's where the reference is :-
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/3136.html

So your dog can obviously be neutered.  If you had her on breeding terms, you should talk it through with the breeder - If I were the breeder I think, in the circumstances, and you don't want to part with her, that the breeder should pay towards the neutering and hand papers directly over to you.  At least, that is what I would do.  If you wanted another bitch, then I would say, I would take her back immediately.

Let us know what happens.

Regards
Margot

Ditto Margot BUT I guess as the poster only paid half the price of a puppy price anyway and if she is happy to keep it as a pet then she would be given the dog outright and can get it spayed herself or if she is desperate to only keep one for showing she could spay it and recover some costs if it went to a good pet home.

A situation where nobody is at fault really.

I guess we could say the breeder should have noticed but I can't honestly say if you looked at a puppy seen the female sex would you go check it for the male sex or that area. Perhaps when you are checking the pups over. Not sure though at all as very strange situation.

It was at least good the groomer noticed.

How can a puppy get to 6 months before the owner noticed this? Surely weekly checks and regular grooming would show this up before? Or have I misunderstood? My entire male is lying upside down next to me at the moment and it is all very visable!

I agree that the breeder shouldn't have to pay towards the neutering, whether the owner paid half price due to breeding terms or not. She sounds lovely so I am sure she will provide years of joy regardless. 

You would think so but hey who knows.  I trim all mine underneath so know even if they have a mole. :-)

thats right go on criticise. have you ever seen a heraphrodite? there isnt much difference from a normal female and without a really close and a bit invasive examination you (i)wouldnt know.

Hi there Dogman,
I have a friend who breed a litter of yorkies and had the same thing happen. They were not aware until they had sold the pup to a customer who returned it a few weeks later. They too did not know until it was returned to them as it is hard to tell unless you are really looking for it. Im sure your girl will make a lovely pet and I would find it hard to part with her too as all my dogs are part of my family and my babies. The only thing you can do is to have her neutered.

I wasn't critising Dogman, I didn't understand that's all, which is why I said have I misunderstood. A bit of explaining is all that is needed. No I haven't ever seen one, which is why I was asking. So don't go jumping down my throat ok.

Funny enough when i was working in a kennels in Windsor quite a few years ago, all the new students used to get sent up on to the boarding blocks to have a look at 2 roan cocker sisters as they were BOTH "H" we were told to go & have a look as there would be little chance of us seeing it ever again !
The OP is right it is very hard to see, from my memory which i have to admit is bad, we had to just slightly part the opening of the vulva. I dont know if thats what all "H" are like having only ever seeing it twice.
I thought it was funny to have had 2 out of the same litter who were both "H"'s.

I hope your reply wasn't to me DOGMAN as I said,

" hey who knows"    meaning we don't know as it is unususal

and I also said in my earlier post 2 above

"I guess we could say the breeder should have noticed but I can't honestly say if you looked at a puppy seen the female sex would you go check it for the male sex or that area. Perhaps when you are checking the pups over. Not sure though at all as very strange situation.

I don't think that was critical at all.  I said you would think you would spot it but maybe not as you are right we don't know what the difference in appearance would be. :-)  :-)

If you reply wasn't to me then I appoligise ;-)

Can I ask though it the 2 sex organs in the same area??  or as they in the correct areas but the puppy has both?

It really is not always that obvious....I found myself in exactly the same situation a few years ago. I only found out my bitch was hermaphrodite when a stud dog was having difficulty mating her!
She was obviously female to look at...very normal and a pretty little bitch, she had 2 normal seasons and on the third I decided to mate her. I had checked her colour everyday with a tissue and I still didn't spot it. Without being too graphic the penis was inside the vulva, the lips had to be pulled quite far back to see it. She was spayed.

Dogman, think you should talk this over with your breeder to discuss the best way forward, good luck. Regards, Tracey.

I agree with Tracey - it's not always easy to spot a hermaphrodite as the extra male "member" can be tiny & may not protrude at all from the vulva or protrude only slightly. I know of two experienced breeders some years ago who had not noticed their puppies were hermaphrodite until a judge was going over them on the table at a show! I'm sure their are pet bitches who are intersex but live their lives out without anyone ever spotting it - it may only be noticed when there are difficulties in getting a bitch mated.

Jane

Oh Jane , Tracey thanks for explaining that.  I wasn't sure if it would be in the same area or where it normally is..

Very strange but interesting.

I know of someone whose dog looked too all intent and purposes to be a female.  When nothing had happened up to 3 years of age she was worried due to her having no seasons, took her to the vets who couldn't tell externally but of course could internally.  So no it is not always noticeable, especially not to the untrained eye!

I know just recently of a family that took their dog to be NEUTERED and he ended up being SPAYED.......again a blue roan cocker spaniel!  Turns out two pups from the same litter are also hermaphrodites

I have also heard the same recently!  Seems there are more about than we realise.

do you think its a problem with the cocker spanials? coz up untill now ide never heared of this befor but it seems to be mostly cockers affected! :)

Would this be a breeding problem, is it hereditary I mean or perhaps down to inter breeding as this would be the sort of thing I would (whether it be Naive of me or not I am unsure) associate with inter breeding????

Like with us it can happen no matter what the breeding is, it doesn't have to be closely bred.

Oh ok, not sure how it even occurs with humans just thought it could prehaps be a breeding problem, what a shame for you dogman however I would just say I could never 'send back' a pup that I had for even a day- good luck with what ever decision you make ;)

I was told by a Vet that there are more than we would ever imagine!  He believed, and I have no idea of any evidence to back it up, that it was because all of us ladies who've taken the pill for many years, and peed oestrogen into the sewerage system, that is then recycled, both to animals and humans.
I had a friend who worked in maternity at a very large hospital, and she said that they had at least one baby a month born with confused genitals as she called it, and that the baby had an operation before they left hospital.  My mouth fell open when she told me.  Maybe this could begin to explain why some folk don't know if they are Arthur or Martha?

> Maybe this could begin to explain why some folk don't know if they are Arthur or Martha?<

ROFLOL Val that was cleverly put. 

The book of the bitch does mention this with regard to Cocker Spaniels so I do think it is known in the breed.

It is known to be an inherited condition in American Cockers and suspected in several other breeds including English Cockers.  A simple recessive so both parents are carriers but another form of hermaphrodism is caused by developmental chromosome abnormalities, so not inherited.  More info here http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/meyers/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1

Julie

And more information here

[link]http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/urogenital%20disorders/sexual%20dev'ment%20disorders.htm[/link]

http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/meyers/ivis.pdf

Hope this helps

AS Julie said, it occurs in american Cockers - we had a line in the UK a few years ago in which this condition was quite common  I have seen a lot less of it recenlty.  It can be impossible to spot in a young puppy, and whilst in some it can become obvious at perhaps 12 - 16 weeks, in others it is not noticed until sexual maturity is reached.  In all cases I have seen the male member is concealed within the female, as maturity approaches it appears in the opening.  In some cases it is only discovered when the bitch goies to be speyed, as the male organs are all internal.  Have often seen particularly masculine bitches whose owners comment on the fact that they have never come inot season, and strongly suspect they are H's
bye
Gwen