I've crossposted this from another site.

>Have any of you heard of neosporosis canineum??????

Well, up to this week I had not, but I do know alot about this now. UNFORTUNATLY.
Last saturday we were having a barbeque and invited just a small group of local friends.. Stephen and I went shopping to Tesco early in the week, and as I am now disabled and walk with a stick, I suggested that we purchased some of the meat for the barby, for that weekend....... as I cant go shopping on my own ( thats why you dont see me at shows these days) basically killing two birds with one stone. We purchased many items, but amongst them were two large packets of lean minced steak, that I intended to make my own burgers from... as they were large packs, and on arrival home, did not know what to do for tea, so suggested spaghetti bolognaise....... I took about one third of the mince from one of these packets and put it in a pan...... all of the rest of the meat was then frozen for the weekend. My boxer then came into the kitchen and as I had not starting cooking then, I removed some of the mince and gave it to her......mmmmmmmm she loved it. Then stephen called her, a
nd her mother and fed the dogs , whilst I prepared the spag bol.

This was tuesday evening last week... then came friday and Cilla was starting to act strange. Hanging her head to one side, and slightly falling as if she was drunk. Saturday she seemed to stabalise and I thought a little better, and thinking she had an inner ear infection started her on a course of synulox 250 mg tablets three times daily, as the vet would. By monday she was worse so was rushed to the vets........ I was so upset, I could not rememeber half of what he said but he did say he was doing one particular test that had to be sent away. In either case, if it did come back possitive for neospora he would start her on the antibitics there and then, and he said the synulox I had given was good.

She was a little better on tues evening so was allowed home. still hanging her head to one side, and walking in circles and then falling over. We continued with the drugs, then, wednesday came and my vet rang to say the tests results were possitive. She was infected with neospora. We then racked our brains how she could get this awfull desease.....not virus! apparantly very few cases are reported, because it is masked by so many symptoms...

Neospora is a parasite that is ingested from contaminted meat, that is fresh, and from the consumption it only takes 1-3 days for the parasite to attack the brain, then work its way down the spinal cord, and infect all the major organs and mussles.......leaving the dog paralised and blind..... At 9.30 yesterday morning I had to have my beautifull Cilla eathanaised, to save further suffering.

On reserching this, on the internet, it mostly appears in cattle heards and clinicle tests have been carried out at liverpool university, and sweden, and the USA. It is usually more common in costa rica, south america, but is gradually showing up everywhere. Very few cases were reported last yr. the syptoms rang from a weekeness and paralysis of the forlimbs, drunken type behaviour, altered behavier, blindness, head tilt, head nodding, tremors, seizures,sudden death due to heart inflamation, pheumonia, skin abnormalities. Frightening isnt it?

It can only be ingested fron fresh meat, as freezing the meat will kill the spors.... cooked meat will kill the spors. As we eat very little meat ourselves, and never feed fresh uncooked meat to our dogs , I can definatly say that it was the fresh lean mince steak from tesco, that is the cause.

Neospora can not use humans as a host so if ingested the stomach will kill the spores, so dont worry there........ it only affects, cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, but has now moved to dogs, and research on the internet suggests ALL dog breeders be aware of this parasite. From the onset of ingesting the spores, my dog was dead within 8 1/2 days....... She was my constant house companion, and our hearts have been ripped apart. How many of you, when in the kitchen, preparing the evening meal, give some fresh meat to your dog... Please look it all up, its frightening to think that this is in the human food chain. Apparantly only one animal is inspected from each heard to be slaughtered, but thats this counrty. A lot of meat now comes from other countries..... if in doubt, still buy the meat, but FREEZE it before you intend using it for at least 24 hrs.

Cilla was 16 months and four days old, when she died.
I will of course, be informing DEFRA , and advising our local tesco store, but on an advisory capacity only!
Anne Hellmuth

All raw meat is fine to feed after it has been frozen and defrosted as this kill's the spore's.

How terrible for you. Just when you think you are being kind to your animals giving them a treat not knowing what you have just given them. I have also in the past given bailey raw mince when cooking although he prefers it cooked with the sauce. Thanks for the advice unfortunately for yourselfs its too late. Take care.

How awful. Thank goodness I am such a silly mum that I always wait until the mince or sausages or whatever are cooked before giving my dogs treats - I know they would eat it raw, but for some reason I like them to have it cooked, and now I have a real reason!

This isn't me this happened to thank goodness, I found it on another site and thought I'd post it just in case as I know lots more people are turning to BARF feeding.

Dear Zoe

I am so sorry for your loss.  I know how I felt when I lost my dog to cancer.  Thank you for the advice.  I feed raw meat but it has allways come frozen from the pet shop.  I certainley wont be giving any fresh meat which hasnt been frozen to my dogs.

>Dear Zoe

This didn't happen to Zoe, she has cross posted it.

Thanks for passing that on Zoe. I will continue to feed raw meat but from now on I will freeze it first. Is it just cattle or can chickens carry it too?

Yes I read this a few months ago, its terribly sad isn't it. :-(

Also to add I'm sorry if it sounded as though I was trying to put you all off feeding raw, I certainly wasnt, I just wanted to make sure everyone who was thinking of doing it froze first :)

It is always good to pass information on. I have never fed raw meat to my dogs and doubt that I ever will after reading this.

RAW MEAT IS FINE AS LONG AS IT'S FROZEN BEFOREHAND !

Thanks Zoe for passing the info. on it's so sad and unfortunately many dogs have died this way, but with more awareness hopefully others can be saved.

Thanks for passing on the info.  I would never have known otherwise.

Glad I read this, as I have a 12 week old shih tzu pup and the other day I bought some raw meat from pets at home (it was frozen) so thats ok but before I found out about dog produced raw meat, I was thinking of buying raw meat from supermarket that we would eat and feed her that.

Crikey - I was making spag bol on Sunday and my two were being given little tasters of mince whilst I was doing it.  Thank God it had been frozen

Does this mean i should freeze the raw chicken wings i give to my dogs first??
Only just had the courage to feed them to them.
Jane

The dog that died wasn't being fed on a raw diet but was given raw meat that was destined to be cooked for human consumption

People who feed raw food know that they need to freeze all meat for at least 24 hours before giving to their dogs it's part of the research they should do before starting to feed raw

Thanks moonmaiden
Not doing complete raw diet.
Just gave it too them this morning.
Gosh hope they will be ok

Most people who feed raw freeze their meat anyway because they buy in bulk (to a greater or lesser degree). I haven't heard of any particular requirement to freeze the meat first tho'. The problem with neospora seems to be mostly with raw mince - is this right ?? I've never fed my dogs raw mince - unless it is intended for dogs and comes frozen anyway. I've often given my dogs other raw meat that hasn't been frozen first. I don'y think that I intend to change without more evidence. I will consult my adviser :)

Daisy

Have a look at this article

>from which .I feel you are better off freezing it for a 24-hour period. It should retain more of its nutritive quality during freezing than from cooking.<
>If you take in a new pet, possibly an ill one or a rescue dog that has a weakened immune system or you are dealing with a new puppy, I think the freezing option is the best compromise. These would be the dogs that are most likely to contract this parasite.<

The fact that the boxer was not normally fed raw meat could have been a factor in her sad demise

Although it is found mainly in dairy cattle, freezing all meat is the best option

I doubt that your dogs will come to any harm but I have always frozen any raw food my dogs have been given(well the butcher freezes it for me :))

Yes - I remember reading that before. Seems to say that young dogs/pups are the most at risk. Most of my dogs food is frozen anyway, so not a problem. I seem to recall that with Salmonella (?), the surface area of the food gave the most risk - so minced food gave the most problems - ie burgers for humans. Could be similar here. We humans don't seem to come to much harm eating rare steaks :D If mine get raw that hasn't been frozen it is usually chicken wings, not beef, unless it is steak that has been reduced at the supermarket :D

Daisy

will be freezing wings from now on :)

For got to say THANKYOU Both

How tragic :-(

I'm not entirely convinced about this freezing business.  There appears to have been very little research on Neospora in the dog and it is my understanding that it was misdiagnosed as Toxoplasma until the late 1980's.  I've heard that Toxoplasma form cysts that are extremely resistant to freezing and the meat cells act as a buffer to protect the organism??? I don't know about Neospora but there appears to be a difference in opinion, some say freezing kills it, others say it doesn't.

Does anyone have access to validated scientific research that proves that freezing makes the organisms harmless, and at what temperature and for how long?  And I don't mean websites with a vested interest in holistic care or critiques of the same. ;-)

hi all, been reading with interest what about feeding raw tripe?

To be safe, freeze it first.  My dogs' food arrives frozen.

I feed Tesco mince raw to our dog (totally raw fed) but I always freeze any meat and defrost again before it is fed to him.

I am so sorry to hear about this dog catching such an awful disease and send my thoughts to her owner.

This actually happened over two years ago :(

I thought the message had got round by now!

I've been giving my dogs fresh raw chicken wings

Should they be frozen beforehand?

On reserching this, on the internet, it mostly appears in cattle heards and clinicle tests have been carried out at liverpool university, and sweden, and the USA

I took part in the testing done by Liverpool University in the 90s.  I used to have a numerically small breed and the breed club was contacted to see if its members would be willing to take part and have their dogs blood tested.  I think all bar one person was happy to do so.  We all had titre scores done and this is where a little confusion arose.  In the USA at that time any dog showing a titre of less then 1:200 was considered clear - in the UK dogs with a titre of 1:50 were considered affected but at no risk.  At  the end of the trial it was considered by Liverpool Uni that any dog with a titre of under 1:200 was safe to use for breeding.  My three bitches' results were 1:50, 1:50 and clear.  I then used a dog with a titre of 1:100 on my clear bitch and ended up with the symptoms described in your post in three of the five resulting puppies (all to a greater or lesser degree).  None of them were so bad that they had to be put to sleep but did show signs.  The research came to the conclusion that it is an inherant condition as well as an envirnonmental one - not much use really.

The lady doing the research (I think her name was Jackie Barber but I'm really not sure as my memory is awful!) did say that out of 75 breeds tested (singular dogs of a breed - not a breed as a whole) 73 different breeds had titres up to 1:1200!!

I'm sorry to hear it affected your girl so badly.  Personally I think more vets should be aware of it and then we can learn  more about it.

Debs

I was having a conversation with a friend who is a Research Chemist about this very subject on Saturday. We were looking at my 7 week old puppies and she was asking me what I weaned them on. When I told her I start them on raw mince but freeze it first to kill any bacteria, she told me I was completely wasting my time as freezing only puts some bacteria into suspended animation, and the act of thawing at room temperature could actually trigger multiplication. Crikes!!, my blood runs cold at the thought of the risk I've been putting the puppies under. Now I've read all your threads, I'll be straight on to her in the morning to see what she has to say on the subject of raw tripe, I'll let you know what she says. She's a proffessor and one of the top research chemists in the country so I'm sure she knows what she's talking about. She did reel off a list of names of bacteria which cannot be destroyed by freezing but I can't remember any of them, I hadn't even heard of most of them. I'll keep you posted.

*Bump*

Ive been trying to get a definative answer on this whole freezing kills question. ( I was at the time unconvinced of a great threat, by this method of introduction and the effectiveness of freezing)
Have found only one research paper that mentions only in passing, I have been to the reference library, I now know the life cycle of neospira intimately!
The general consensus Im getting (and have found one trial) is that only temps over -20 over 24 hr period will kill the oocyst (and reduce the level of infective tachyzoites /bradyzoites enclosed in tissue cysts)

But.. more interestingly is the general consensus that domestic freezers do not run at -20
(Ive checked mine and it flucctuates from 17/18 nearly getting to 19)
Perhaps if your freezing mince ( for these reasons) it might be pertinent to check out your temps (esp if its an old one or second hand?)

anyone else find anything more on this?

Good luck! I found one paper on the PubMed database that mentioned -20 for 24 hours but nothing else. Univ of Liverpool will test for it, do I get a truffle for that? :-D

what a terrible thing to happen I hope you can get some advise regarding this,I watched the programme the other night regarding Tesco and I most certainly will not be buying meat there ever again.
I was told once ,well people want their cheap meat ! meat is not cheap wherever you get it from especially big supermarkets its most imported.
I am now going to support the local butcher which we luckily still have,not that I am a big meat eater but My Husband and Son like it.

Thank you for bringing this to peoples attention.

Glenys

Wasn't it a local butchers in Dundee that caused the last major outbreak of E.Coli food poisoning?  It is all down to the individual isn't it and you take the same chance as to how concienscous they are where ever you shop :)

>do I get a truffle<

Even better.. (I stopped off at Patisserie Valeria in Kensington on my way home)  Just kicked my shoes off and am sitting back with a devilish little cake, guess I could go 'halves' :)