Just a quick question. There is so much controversy over vaccinations, if to do it and on what scedule. I do believe vaccinating is the smart route I'm just comletely up in the air on when. My vet want's to start my B.C. puppies on their first shots now at 6 1/2 weeks. This just seems a little early to me. He is questioning if the one puppy with problems from birth(taken away from mom because of milk coming out nose)has any real antiboties left, or if he even had any to begin with. Though he told me he always vaccinates at 6 weeks. What do you guys think? I quess I had always thought 8 weeks was young enough to start.

We just took our litter of 10 today to vets and they are just 8 weeks. My vet did a little graph to explain how the immunity rises with the colostrum and is gone by 10 weeks. He reckons in an ideal world where money did not matter pups would be done at 6, 8 and 10 weeks to be sure but his regime is 8 and 10. He did say if itwas a litter who were in an area where they might be of substantially higher risk of parvo he would want to give a parvo jab at 6 weeks.HTH
I have always had mine done at 8 without any probs.

Hi Star,
Now were your puppies given the live vaccine or killed? That's another thing up for contraversy. Also did they only get their parvo/distemper or was it more than that? Also if uncertain of a puppy getting their mothers first milk maybe it would be best to start early, maybe? I quess I'm just terrified of parvo especially. I've been through so much with the one pup. Have you heard of puppies actually getting something from the vaccine? Also the one puppy I'm talking about is on antibiotics and has been since birth because he has asperated milk, still sounds very raspy and has yellow snot from time to time. My vet is not concerned he says a vaccine will not hurt him now and that it could be months before his lungs completely clear up. He acts great and has no fever. Just scared and don't know if I should try to wait longer.

I was not sure but have just looked on intervet website and it says its a live vaccine. It is Nobivac DHPPI and Nobivac Lepto 2. Its the one my vet has been using for some time and we have not had any problems with it. I think I would be guided by my vet. If the puppy is 'weaker' he may have less immunity than is ideal so would not risk. I trained as a nurse years ago and as with children there is always that one chance you may get an adverse reaction but the benefits way outweigh the risks. At the end of the day it has to be your call. Could you not contact the vaccine manufacturer for extra info?
Sue

HI Sue,
Sorry I just used your call name last time. I know it's really up to me, just hoping to get some opinions. The vet says just because he has a slight infection in his lungs that this has nothing to do with building antiboties against diseases, and feels safe giving him the shot. If you did'nt know any better you'd never know this puppy has issues. Eats, plays, and is generally rotten just like his brother. Still don't like the idea of the vaccine being given when he does have something else his body is fighting. But yet again the vet says it could take months for his lungs to clear, I would'nt think I should wait that long to start.

Just thought I would mention that Intervet (who make Nobivac) clearly state that only healthy dogs should be vaccinated.

I do mine at 8 and 10 weeks.  I feel 6 weeks is too early.  Also give mine the dead vaccine.

Can someone explain to me the difference between giving the live vaccine and the dead one that is mentioned in this thread? I am getting my first puppy on Saturday at 7 weeks and this is my first dog. I am very concerned about vaccinations, after reading how controversial the whole issue appears to be. Can someone explain to me some of the main issues concerning vaccinations?

There is so much written about this subject on the internet I think it is very easy to get over anxious about the whole thing.  It's possible some puppies will suffer some adverse reactions to vaccines and some of those may be severe but the research suggests that the proportion is very small and should always be weighed against the benefits of protecting your puppy from some very nasty diseases.  To put it in proportion you only need to consider the fact that we know someone, somewhere will have a car crash today and maybe even die but I doubt that would put you off driving your puppy to its appointment.

And specific research done by viroligists suggests otherwise. On or off the internet research is research, the internet is only a tool whereby it`s published for all to read for people online, faster than having it published into print.
As the makers of vaccines themselves state, Only Healthy Animals Should be Vaccinated & the OP has said the puppy is unwell, the question when to give it is academic. They also give clear instructions as to when vaccines should be started, maybe the vet should read them.

I have not commented on when to give or giving to unwell pups, suggest OP discusses this further with their vet as the nature of the pup's health issues may or may not be likely to interfere with or be affected by vaccination I really would not know.  The vet will also know the prevelance of local outbreaks of disease and, knowing the puppies full history, understand better than us how risky that would be to this pup whose health is already compromised.
My reply, however, was to NannyOgg and unless there has been new research to entirely throw the balance of risk/benefit on its head I would stand by my comments :)

The questions asked was can someone explain the difference between live & dead vax & also some of the main issues regarding vax. The original question was what age to give puppy vax which I posted links to that answers those q`s, I didn`t see an answer to those questions in the pooch report, maybe I missed it.
As to whether or not unwell animals should be vaccinated its not a matter of opinions, what you or I or anybody else thinks about it. The only opinion that should be adhered to is that given by the manufacturers of vaccines, they are the ones that do know how their vaccines should be used. And with every make of vaccine, by every different manufacturer is given a product leaflet & they all state very clearly :
Should Only Be Given To Healthy Animals.

Christine, Spain.

As I have said Christine my post was to NannyOgg who I felt might find the Pooch report reassuring it was not to the original poster.
However now you have drawn me in to the OP's question :) I would say I don't think it is quite as clear cut regarding giving vaccines to unwell animals as all that.  If the infirmity is likely to inprove in the short term I agree it would be good to wait but if it is chronic it becomes rather harder to call, for instance we vaccinate elderly people and those with chest ailments against flue despite, in their very nature, being infirm and often "knocked for 6" by the jab as my neighbour calls it :), precisely because they are the most vulnerable if the virus strikes.  The vaccination company is, obviously, going to cover itself with their advise and quite rightly should not be held to blame if the decision to vaccinate goes badly but it will always be a risk/benefit balance and as the OP's vet has all the available information about the puppies condition, its likely progress, the level of local risk and it's level of vulnerability I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to guide divenride in their decision.

And as I said, I gave links answering both posters q`s. It was what they asked for.

My mother is 90, as routine the nurse goes each winter to give flu vaccines. To cut a long story short I told my mum she should ask her Dr whether she should have it or not. His reply was a resounding no. The nurse doesn`t ask any of the residents in the sheltered accm where my mum lives about their medical problems but her reply to my mum when she voiced my concerns to her was*in my opinion you need it* the opposite of her doctor.............I really don`t believe there are many elderly people, or even young ones who know of the issues regarding vaccination.
At the risk of repeating myself the only opinions of any value are the manufacturers who make the vaccines. Their opinions are based on the virologists & scientists who devise the vaccines & they state very very clearly Only To Be Used In Healthy Animals.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but I believe each case should be judged on its merits.  I doubt your Mother's GP meant that no elderly person should be given the vaccine but judged it on her individual risk/benefit analysis which is what I believe divenrides vet should do as he is in an unique position of knowing the full medical history and local conditions which, in my opinion, does give him an opinion of value.

When prescribing medication which is what a vaccine is, vets or Dr`s are obliged to adhere to the instructions of use issued by the drug companies that make them. Going against this would be a total disregard of the manufacturers advice. It is after all why they are given.
No matter what anybodies opinion is on this, vet or layman, there is no getting away from the fact that the drug companies that make vaccines hold the opinion & state it very clearly on their instructions how to use them :-

*Should Only Be Used On Healthy Animals*

Christine, Spain.

I would read that as "should only be used on healthy animals" to meet all their guarantees and liabilities.  I still think it reasonable for a vet to use their professional judgement as to whether the risk of desease was greater than the risk of the vaccine to a animal not meeting the recommended criteria but clearly we are not going to agree and we are just going round in circles.  I'm sure the OP will work it out with their vet, who has all the information, if they feel they need to.

Vets have been denying for years that there's anything wrong with vaccinations when there's been proof that there is so how can we trust them on this?

Depends what you mean by "wrong".  I don't think any vet would deny that  pharmaceutical products make changes in the body, no changes no point, every drug carries a risk of side effects what matters is the proportion of risk to benefit. I don't have any difficulty trusting my vet :)

CLARIFICATION on WORDING FOR WARNINGS ON USE OF VACCINES

From Intervets
Contra-Indications, warnings, etc
1) 0nly healthy dogs should be vaccinated

From Merial
Contra-Indications, warnings, etc
Do not vaccinate unhealthy animals

From Fort Dodge
Contra-Indications, warnings, etc
Pregnant animals should not be vaccinated
0nly healthy dogs should be vaccinated

These words are taken verbatum from the inserts that are included with the above vaccines.

Feel free to read them anyway you wish.

Thanks I do and I would refer the honourable member to the answer I gave earlier :)

Sorry to have stirred up dust. I can see both sides of the discussion between Isabel and Christine. These are the exact things I am struggling with in my mind. I could not even imagine if something happened to this little guy now. Of course from my understanding even with vaccination puppies can still get sick. But I want to put my faith in the vet also. I've never had a puppy before that this was even a question, just had it done. Of course nothing about this puppy has been normal, and some I'm sure would yell at me about how I got him to this point. He had to be tubed and with me working full time in a small farrier supply store he has come to work from day one with me. Still does cause he can't be left with his brother cause he beats him up. I drive an hour to work and running around after, he has been with me constantly. He is carried everywhere. In the store he has an area behind my desk so he can't wander all over the store floor. I do my best to keep him as safe from stuff as possible. When I'm in the area behind the desk I leave my shoes outside just so as not to track in from where all the customers come in. There's one thing this little sucker is certainly getting exposure to the real world. The vet's main thing was that I can't wait forever and he will more than likely be exposed at some point and he also says he won't vaccinate him for anything that involves the respritory system. Mainly against Parvo. He swears this will not interfear with his lungs. I don't know I'm quite lost at this point. Just scared of doing the wrong thing. Anyways thanks for all the info and I'll let everyone know how the guy is whatever I do.

I really feel for you, I think it is a very hard decision and I doubt there is a right and wrong answer just a gamble either way, whatever you and your vet decide I'm sure you will have both done your level best and well.......luck's been on your side so far hasn't it :)

Don't worry divenride - vaccination discussions always end up this way, people have strong feelings on both sides!  I would just comment that I find "he also says he won't vaccinate him for anything that involves the respritory system" a bit strange - surely the immune system involves the respiritory system?

Anyway, I do feel for you.  I have a 13 week old puppy that I'm currently going through the vaccination dilemma for and he doesn't have the problems your poor little chap has.

Why don't you try contacting Intervet via their web page and asking their opinion of vaccinating your puppy in his current condition?  I recently contacted them and got a speedy and informative reply - it can't do any harm to have another opinion can it?

Wishing you the very best of luck.

The wording post wasn`t intended for you actually Isabel, was for others posters so they could see the exact wording with the emphasis on Only Healthy Animals.........rather than the other way round as you said it :)
Nice of you to comment anyway tho :)

I think if you hit the reply button on my post I am rather likely to think you are responding to that post :)  I think people always do, and should, feel free to read and add their comments anyway.
As I said it?    Didn't you post what the vaccine manufacturers said and then I just quoted you?  But never mind :)  Out of the three quotes two say only vaccinate healthy animals but one says do not vaccinate unhealthy animals so obviously the emphasis does not matter too much to them either ;)

As far as I`m aware I hit the reply button on the last reply in the thread, whether it was your post or someones elses I didn`t pay particular attention! But there again thats the sort of person I am, can`t be bothered splitting hairs, twisting meanings etc etc :) But takes all sorts I know that :)
Important thing for me is all info is available & I expect.....no demand that vet I place my trust in follows manus advice.

The only one that said Do Not Vaccinate....was Intervet, they produce the Nobivac vaccine, which happens to be the most widely used vaccine in the UK.

Re the emphasis, obviously you understanding of the English language is different to mine & as I`ve no wish to discuss that with you I`ll leave this thread now :)

Yes I think we had better as I cannot follow your point about the emphasis at all, as the manufacturers are happy to put it either way why does it matter?  The wording I used was quoting your choice certainly wasn't twisted by me.

Our boy was vaccinated at 6 1/2 weeks then had his second at approx 13 weeks due to ill health - they should not be vaccinated if their health is compromised. Our vets were prepared to wait longer and even start the course again if it had been necessary.

Hi, some links below that explain the difference & also when to give them :)
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/DrMcCluggage.pdf
http://www.caberfeidh.com/PuppyVax.htm

Christine, Spain.

FWIW in an ideal world I would not vaccinate my puppies at all.

I  have looked into Homoeopathic nosodes and even the Homeoepaths admit that these are not 100% either.

No vaccine is always a 100% in all dogs or humans etc.

It is MHO that NO animal should ever be immunised whilst its immune system is compromised.

I get my puppies at 7 weeks and do not vaccinate until 9 and 11 because moving house is stressful enough.  I take my dogs out on the floor from Day1 prior to their first vaccination having first ascertained that there is not a local outbreak of XXXXX disease.

I also mitigate vaccination with a dose of Thuja.

A number of years ago we were losing many Pomeranians within 2 weeks of having their vaccinations, two died at the vets as they couldn't believe it so asked to keep them.  They phoned at 10.15 pm one night to say all was well and that they'd just gone to bed, 15 minutes later we were phoned to say that one had died.

We were away on holiday and our ears pricked up when we heard some mention Pomeranian's and "dead vaccines".  We got talking to this person and eventually started our Pom's on the dead vaccine, since then (everything crossed) we have never lost any pups.

THis woman had done a lot of research on the breed and found the same thing happening with the dogs that she had researched.  I will never use the live vaccine on my Pom's again.  The vet orders it in especially for us, which is very kind of him seeing as we only have 1, maybe 2 Pom's about every 2 years!