I'll apologise in advance for the long post but did feel I should fully highlight my concerns.

During December 2004 we said goodbye to our first GSD, a long coated bitch.  At the tender age of 14yrs 9mths old age finally caught up with her.  She was a wonderful dog and had never displayed any form of aggression to anyone one or another dog that I can recall. 

On 31 December 2004, the new pup arrived, a 7 1/2 week old male.  He has been great with the whole family, incl our 3 kids (11, 8 & 6) but has been a bit off with strangers.  This is something new to us as our first dog had been friendly with everyone she'd ever met.  There has of course been barking at people coming to the door, or passing the garden but this territorial behaviour is to be expected.  However, his sporadic displays of 'aggressive' behaviour are what I'm seeking advice on and are detailed as follows:

Aged about 5 months I took him to the vet, his 1st real visit since his jabs.  The vet looked at him and while I held his lead the vet bent down behind him and took hold of his rear legs/hips.  The pup turned immediately and snapped at the vet.  I then had to hold his head as he snarled his way through the rest of the examination.

Following the episode at the vets I enrolled him into obedience classes that week.  We live in a very rural location and he never really sees anyone. Socialisation would hopefully do the trick.  So a few days later I arrive at classes with pup and he was quite unsettled with all the people there.  That said the other dogs didn't seem to bother him at all.  Well the training got under way and at one point I had him sitting at my side and I was asked to carryout a mock examination (eyes, ears, teeth).  While doing this the dog trainer leaned over him and reached out toward him and he reacted by lunging forward and snapping at her face.  She immediately took hold of him and subdued him.

A week later I took him back to the vet's for a familiarisation visit.  The vet wasn't present but the woman there allowed us in and he wandered around the surgery and even lay down on the table.  She then started to stroke him and gave him some titbits and he was fine.  She then started to lightly check his eyes and head and he was fine.  She then started to check his ears and on putting her finger into his ear he quickly turned and snapped at her.

I have continued to take him to training classes and have purposely taken him to the nearby towns and walked him around the streets there and there was no reoccurrence of the 'snapping' behaviour.  I even had 3 independent members at the training classes comment on how he had settled there.

But then....  last week I took him to the kennels as we were going on holiday.  As one of the girls came over to meet us, she walked straight toward him with her hand outstretched to take his lead.  He quickly moved towards her and barked and snapped his teeth as she reached him.  To say I was disappointed is an understatement.  Having collected him this morning I was told by the kennels owners that while they managed him they were wary but none of their staff would go near him.

My dog is almost 9 months old and has never displayed any form of aggression with any of our family and loves playing with the kids, albeit a bit rough sometimes.  There are no dominance problems as he has accepted me as pack leader and is very submissive if I use the appropriate tone.  He is to 'snipped' at a later stage.

All of the incidents I have mentioned have happened when I have had him on a lead and the people have been complete strangers to him and have moved towards or over him with out stretched arms/hands.  Do I have a dangerous dog, a nervous dog or an overly protective dog?  Should I be worried about him?

From what you have writeen yu have a dog who is being defensive in threatening situations, ans I would think that much of this stems from his lack of early socialisation outside the home with people.

There are other more experienced GSD people on this forum.

What was his mother like toward you when you visited?  How many other of his adult relatives did you meet?  The answers to these questions will help pinpoint if this lack of confidence is nature or nurture.

If your dog is insured then ask for a referal by your vet to a behaviourist who may be able to help you with a plan of action to get past these problems.

I suggest never in the meantime allowing him to be put into a position that he finds threateneing where he could retailiate and hurt someone.  At the vets it may be wise to ahve him muzzled for examination. 

You also need to be confident wehn he is with you, do not soothe or try and convince him there is nothign to worry about.  You need to be very jolly and upbeat i9n these situyations and in charge.

My pup came from a reputable breeder with many show dogs.  His mother was ok when we visited.  His father is from another well established and reputable breeder also with many show dogs.  Obviously, I never saw the father in person but have seen his picture and his very sucessful show career on his breeders website.

Not being a complete cainine novice I would still like to think like you that it is 'defensive aggression' and age, experience, more socialisation and lack of threatening situations may all help overcome this.  But you know, a second opinion and relevent advice never goes amiss.

Hi otherone,

If the pup was kennel breed, and wasn't breed in the home, It will
take a good amount of time to gain his confidence with strangers.
If you check his pedigree and he is not inbreed, and from good stock,
He should!!! Settle in time, but! the vet should not in my opinion been so rough with
him. That wasn't a good start!
Best of luck
Denese

SEems like an overprotective GSD to me.

As for him snapping at the vet , alot of dogs are not used to having there ears paws and eyes touched. What i do with all my dogs is lay down with them and put my fingers in their ears and give them paw rubs to desensitize them. At the vets i ALWAYS have some greenies at hand to put in their mouths when they get mouthy with the vet, they hate him!

How about having strangers offer him treats? Does he like treats? Teach him a down stay or settle command when he starts to show some agression.

Hi,
Wow!! what a question, If he had been agressive to any of your family, the question
could have been answered easy! Have you spoken to the breeder? did you see the
dog and bitch? was the bitch friendly? Did you get him from a well known breeder?
You need to have a GSD breeder answer your question. As it is easy to say he sounds
a little nasty. Lets hope he is from good breeding stock. If he is he may improve!
Best of luck
Denese

Hi Other...i have bred and trained GSD"S for many years,and rasie and train many of my own pups,,this is defintly a red flag..most dogs do not react that way to having something done to them.mine tend to be big babies until they are two or three then they start becoming more protective.you should seek professional help with him and neuter him now before testosterone starts coming into play

It sounds to me as if he wasn't handled enough whilst very young & that he was hurt when the vet handled him. I am at a loss to why a vet should need to manhandle a GSD puppy'e hind legs unless he was limping or having problems

Also why would anyone put a finger into a dogs ear ? No one should evenkr put anything into a dogs ear other than instruments for the purpose of checking the ear condition

As to the kennels actually putting out a hand can be viewed as threatening by dogs & if the staff were scared of him then he would have picked this up in their body language. If they gave him eye contact at the same time as outstreching their hand

I think what your dog needs is some confident building & also relaxation techniques as well. He needs to learn that people are not a threat & that they bring rewards for good behaviour.

As you are attending a training club you could approach them for help first as they will have seen him growing up & how he reacts with people he doesn't know

A word about show kennels people in many breeds have successful show kennels it doesn't always mean that they are breeding good temperaments in all their dogs, most do but the bigger the kennel the less time each puppy gets with people

Hi Moonmainden,
I do agree, large kennels do have little time for there pups, person contact is
very important. Do you think it is very nervous?
Agression in dogs  from a young age, does concern me a little.
Regards
Denese 

I think it is fear more than aggression, my puppy hadn't been away his breeder home & he was three months old when I got him & took a while to gain confidence he's not nervous just a bit unsure, the difference between the OP & me is that I know how to boost his confidence & he's now completely at home with my father & his wife & as people come to visit(all dog people of course ;) ) he will soon learn. At the dog club he met a young friend who is dog mad & he spent most of the  evening cuddling with her from the outset.(he's been here 4 days now)

If I had had the OP's puppy I would have been making sure that dog friendly"strangers"were part of his life from day 1. It doesn't help he was manhandled by the vet either

Edited to add i would also have used T Touch on him to help him relax

First let me make it clear I am no expert on GSDs or dogs in general. I could be regarded as the well-meaning seeker-after-truth; in other words I've read a few books about dogs and avidly use this site and others. 

That being said I would be very reluctant to condemn this dog as 'aggressive' when what you seem to be describing is a dog with a very strong sense of 'body privacy' in certain parts who resents what he probably sees as the ill-mannered invasion (or threatened invasion) by strangers.  He has snapped but never bitten and only at strangers who tried or actually did lay hands on him.   He sounds an otherwise excellent family dog.  (One of my own dogs detests people reaching directly over her head; she doesn't snap but she certainly flinches.  She generally keeps herself away from people until she knows them well and I see my job as keeping her safe from unwanted advances.)

Try and work out what his 'problem areas' are and desensitise him.  Try and interpret your job as protecting him from people rather than protecting people from him.  I know this is easy to write and difficult to do but you sound committed so give it a go. Good luck to you both.    

I would suggest that the first snap when the vet examined his back legs could have been due to pain, not nerves.  If that were so, then he is probably is now nervous of being handled, having been hurt the once.  Did you check out why he snapped when touched in that particular area?  Also, you say later on that he was "subdued" by a trainer - I don't know exactly what that means but if he was rolled or held down then that wouldn't add to his desire to be handled by humans and could have escalated things.

It also sounds like he has some problems with strangers etc, as other posters have commented, and have advised you as to how you can work on that.

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.

You are right to be worried.  I have had a number of GSDs and although they can be quirky I  only had one that was such a problem I had to give him up to an individual with 4 dogs so he was not the alpha.  That fixed him overnight.  He was wonderful with all the family and especially me and was great with other dogs but in situations that would come about in normal circumstances he would get aggressive - especially with strange men, although not exclusively men.  I was travelling away regularly and most of the incidents were when i was not there.  he was over protective we think.  The behaviour help advised he was indeed an alpha male and he was adopted by a family with 4 other GSDs on a large property and the pack leader demoted him immediately and strictly over the initial week with them and by all accounts he has not displayed the tendencies at all since - some 7 years since. He was two when I gave him up to them.
I am sure you have already adopted the basic rules with a large breed male. 
You must feed him after the family.
Do not let him upstairs or on beds or on furniture.
Do not play tug of war games with him.
Exit doors first and make him follow.
Etc Etc.  if these basic rules are news to you then you must get behavioural help - i would recommend it anyway.  Training classes at a reputable training dog school will help also but be prepared - you might lose this dog if all else fails.  You have an animal that will be anywhere up to 100 pounds plus and they must be predictable and controllable which all good GSD's are.  Best of luck you have a responsible attitude and have taken the first step.  If you fix it there are no better dogs - I still have one to this day.
Rick

If only those 'rules' you quote weren't based on flawed science, rglass91155!

>I am sure you have already adopted the basic rules with a large breed male.  You must feed him after the family. Do not let him upstairs or on beds or on furniture. Do not play tug of war games with him. Exit doors first and make him follow.<

That's where I was going wrong when I had my very large male GSDs who were all 110% in temperament BTW could be thats why I had no problems with them !

Sorry but you are way out of date & it sounds like a direct quote from well known "behaviourist"who used to live not a million miles away from me

Pass the crackers I must start putting the new BC puppy it's place

I agree absolutely, MM. I don't do any of those things and yet I have obedient (at least pretty much good enough for me!) dogs.
:)

having seen this sort of comment made a few times now, and being open to the idea that it may be true,  I am interested to know what approach does work? How do you get a dog to pay attention if it doesnt seem to respect you?, the "leadership rules" idea was always the suggested answer, what is the method you employ that is better than this?

>How do you get a dog to pay attention if it doesnt seem to respect you?,

Think of it this way - why would a dog respect another species in the first place? They know we're not dogs, so us trying to act like dogs (and incidentally getting it hopelessly wrong) will do absolutely nothing to engender respect.

What has always worked for me is to gain the dog's trust. When you have trust you automatically get respect. Gaining trust doesn't involve continually stressing them.

For example, the 'leadership/dominance' theory insists the owner should always go through doorways ahead of the dog. Apart from the safety aspect (a dog coming down steps behind them might knock a frail person and cause them to fall), how many blind people do you see going through doorways in front of their dog? No, the dog does the leading, but the blind person is in charge ...

Exceptionally clear and concise post JG - wholeheartedly agree!

Regards, Teri :)

Another thing to think about - as the puppies in a pack are brought food by the adults (generally in their stomachs and regirgitated, but the pups have no idea that the adults have eaten), who then stand back and let them eat first, what message would most likely be sent by the owner eating first? That the owner is the 'juvenile' and the puppy the one who must take charge!

snip - Sorry but you are way out of date - snip

Quite possibly this is "out of date" or old hat.  Strangely enough it's proved on more than two or three occasions to be very successful .... Do share what it is that's so offensive about those suggestions that you feel the need to be soooo condescending?  I understand the marketing campaign behind it being enough to put someones nose out of joint, but apart from that?

Sorry - but I can't help but get slightly T'd off when instead of just offering an alternative version of help people feel the need to denegerate.  Just as all dogs are different so are folks, what can work with incredible success for one person/dog combination will fail with another. 

It becomes offensive when every dog problem is put down to "dominance" and the troublesome hound subjected to the insidious rank reduction programme no matter how under-socialised, underconfident or stressed it is.

www.dog-dominance.co.uk

Sorry, this argument not much help to the OP.  Please consult a reputable behaviourist, who will help assess the dog and offer you some alternatives.

>Sorry - but I can't help but get slightly T'd off when instead of just offering an alternative version of help people feel the need to denegerate.  Just as all dogs are different so are folks, what can work with incredible success for one person/dog combination will fail with another.  <

Just because certain well known(albeit not nececssarily well respected)behavourists go down the all dogs are trying to be dominant route with their(now proved incorrect)theories about alpha "pack"leaders eating first, going through spaces first etc doesn't mean that it actually works

For example the lowest ranked animal in a pack of wild dogs are always the puppies however they are always allowed to eat first & allowed privileges such as being rough & teasing adults that stopped when the next puppies come along &/or the mature. It is called survival & learning for the pack & individual dogs

Many people perceive(incorrectly)that certain behaviour in certain breeds is aggression like barking in GSDs when another dog is seen when 99 % of the time it is an invitation to play &/or announcing their presence, the body language needs to be observed as well & in most cases the body language reveals that it is not aggression

Living with dogs should be a learning process & also a two way relationship & to try to impose your will on a dog will not result in this, it produces dogs that obedience from submission rather than partnership & as it was proved to me on several occasions by my dogs they protect you better from the heart then from compulsion & they are also better to live with

Can I ask who your pups sire and dam are TheOtherOne?

Gez X

snip< Living with dogs should be a learning process & also a two way relationship & to try to impose your will on a dog will not result in this, it produces dogs that obedience from submission rather than partnership & as it was proved to me on several occasions by my dogs they protect you better from the heart then from compulsion & they are also better to live with > snip

Absolutely agree with the above statement.  I live with terriers who insist on mutual co-operation and quite simply don't know the meaning of submission.  Infact if I where to impose any form of dominience they would take it as a declaration of war.  They would embarrase me dreadfully in any obedience ring (and to be honest if that was what interested me then I'd have stayed with the Border Collies with whom I grew up) but their behaviour in both the home and public is exceptional.  Their trust in me is total, we are a unit, a  solid, happy partnership, the only difference is that in our relationship, it is not their job to protect me.

So it would seem that we've both come to the same result taking different paths and I'm happy to acknowledge that there are flaws in JF's arguements, that much is derivative but fail to see how it could be seen as "imposing your own will" in the relationship any more than say clicker training.

Thank you so much for enlightening me .....

Coopercrossing.
Thanks for being an oasis of common sense here. Almost was put off by the over reaction of some on the post, although I do see these self opinionated dog owners a lot at the park telling people what they should not do - but never a reassuring advising manner of what they should do.
Hope none of them make a living doing this  !!
Thanks again,
Rick

Rick, why the need to be so rude about advice given that differs from your own?    You're on the board elsewhere mentioning a problem that you're seeking to resolve so presumably are not an expert in the field of training :rolleyes:

I've read the post now (hadn't before) and see that the main contention appears to be that it has been pointed out that it is ill advised both from a relationship point of view and a training perspective to apply a "domination" theory to achieve a desired response with dogs.  You may have found success using such methods but they have been proven in the past to exacerbate problems in some dogs.

Advising over the internet on any behavioural issues is something which at best should be done tentatively and while there are many highly experienced people on here they, because of their experience, would not advocate such an approach - partly because the theories behind some of the advice is known more widely to be nonsense anyway - but mainly because if an inexperienced owner wrongly reads the signals being given by their dog (very often the case) then the best specific approach is impossible to suggest ;)

Regards, Teri   

Teri,
Had dogs - almost all GSD's - for 30 years.  Not an expert but successful happy dog owner that could be described as experienced.  One of not too many that is still willing to ask and share personal success stories or otherwise.  Also realize there are many different methods but do not take to the more liberal methods adopted by some.. Have to be very careful with larger breeds more and more these days. You see me asking about other topics because it is the first dog that I have owned that demonstrated that behaviour - none of which is a "problem".  I have a seven year old GSD bitch that is an angel inside the house or outside - but barks at stuff when in the back of the Land Rover.  Problem - No - irritation - Yes. You will also see that over the past few days we have found a solution.  Have to say would not have dreamed of spraying a dog with water in a car would work - nor would I advocate it - but will share it with other people and say it worked for me - so far.  All the modern training methods, books and advice never worked but this simple unorthodox advice did - from a GSD breeder friend who shared his positive experience with one of his dozens of dogs, with me and it worked.  Still hate spraying the dog but treating her on every run that she does not bark - so maybe we will live without the spray soon. To wrap up - the same folks on this forum have an undesirable condescending manner, which comes over arrogant.  Mine came over as rude and point taken, will try to ignore bad behaviour and praise the good.  Really tough to do sometimes. One stroppy scot to a fellow scot.

Yep been using the spray bottle for years,  As long as I am in the car it stops my friends dogs barking just fine, even when I no longer have it to hand these days, my presence is enough. 

It is hilarious though that as soon as she turns the corner I can hear them barking their heads off once she drops me off :D

>To wrap up - the same folks on this forum have an undesirable condescending manner, which comes over arrogant.  Mine came over as rude and point taken, will try to ignore bad behaviour and praise the good.  Really tough to do sometimes.

LOL, fair play to you Rick :P  Shock, horror and to my occasional dismay I've been known to come across as a tad intolerant myself before now - sometimes it bodes well to read, re-read, and then take a 30 minute break before hitting the "post" button :D   Advice I could do with taking on board :rolleyes:

I've used the water method too with good results - I prefer a rinsed out "Jiff lemon" refilled with water as it's got the perfect squirt action, doesn't soak the surrounding area and can be covertly employed as a concealed weapon  :)

Glad it's worked for you and I totally agree it's good to share experiences - no one has as yet developed a "cure all" for every dog in every circumstance.

Regards, Teri
(and this Scot has been known to pull a bit of strop herself ;) )

>'ve used the water method too with good results - I prefer a rinsed out "Jiff lemon" refilled with water as it's got the perfect squirt action, doesn't soak the surrounding area and can be covertly employed as a concealed weapon  :-)<

Or if all else fails the Garden hose with the Jet nozzle :-D :-D ( just kidding)

or the pressure washer......   Certainly sent my neighbour's terrier packing when it breached the boundary :D

Just a quick question for those of you who do squirt your dogs - will they still drink from a water bottle or are they wary of water being squirted around their face? Just curious :)

Yep, mine don't worry about it :)  Thing is, if using a water bottle on full force jet power (OK, not that powerful :P ) it's a temporary measure to prevent a specific annoyance such as excessive barking.  It doesn't have to be an ongoing thing - although if you only use a jiff lemon as the water recepticle you can do so without the dog realising where it came from.

But, I have used spray bottles for "shock" value and yet can still use them for regular grooming and also for letting them have a drink - so IME it doesn't create an issue for the dogs.

HTH, Teri :)

50,000th post!

Cooperscrossing, I think the problem/concern is that the dominance theory (and like any other method with dogs, it IS theory) can cause dogs huge problems (and not just dogs, but owners too.) I have no problem really with peeps using pack theory in the way that , say John Fisher used to - as long as it is done in a sensible way and the dog is happy. But often owners start to think that every time the dog moves, it's a "rank" problem; the dog is "domininant", trying to take over, etc. It used to be that even if a dog pulled on the lead or did anything, it was a rank problem and the human had to be alpha to work out all the problems that ever arose. Taken to its extreme the idea can also mean a miserable life for dogs who are ignored by owners as they feel that is part of being alpha, or who are physically dominated because the owner has no idea of any other way of controlling a dog and setting boundaries.

John Fisher himself, who was a great  promoter of sensible rank reduction, decided "it all means diddly squat to your dog" :P  I think at the end of the day, as long as the dogs and owners are happy, it doesn't matter - but i do worry when i go onto any forum and see suggestions that anything from pulling on the lead, to a puppy crying, to aggression in any form is due to rank reduction not being properly applied :)

Best wishes
Lindsay
x

On a lighter off topic note my puppy BC is certainly dominating me LOL up at 5 in the morning for the necessary then 10 minutes play & cuddles &  light snack then back to bed for a couple of hours & then repeat with breakfast :D

The rest of the day is focused around him & what a complete takeover he has staged Now I remember why I missed my other BC's so much I was their slave ;)

To Theotherone
Wow!! Not sure if you got anything out of that. That exchange was disappointing and from some of them that no doubt claim to be professional.  I am sorry if my genuine offer of help clogged up your topic.  This was not typical of the reaction I have had from GSD owners over the years.  We have had numerous excellent and very happy dogs, normally two GSDs in the house at a time.  I can help with some advice from GSD people in the Surrey area - but although we have lived in various places in the UK that was the only place we had to seek help.  Believe me we got more help than you did from your post.  He is still young and hope you turn him around.
All the best. Rick

I have managed to glean some useful info from the replies to my OP for which I am greatful.  It does show that there are a great variety of 'opinions' out there and no definitive answer.  I have already taken onboard a number of suggestions in respect of how my dog is treated at home by both my family and myself with small but positive improvements being seen already.  I have also re-visited the vets and this time saw a more experienced vet who had come across similar behaviour in other dogs and he was very helpful.  The case for defensive aggression was made for me when my dog was initially wary of this vet he had never seen before while on the lead in the consulting room.  But the vet was absolutely correct and just as he predicted once I let him off the lead and he could roam freely my dog had no problem with the vet, approached him, took a couple of treats from him and within 5 minutes was apparently at ease and happy for the vet to reach out and stroke his head.

Although I think I may have given enough info to identify myself it wasn't my intention, hence I do not want to formally identify his dam and sire.  I have only made casual remarks about his behaviour to the breeder as I felt it may be misinterpreted as assigning blame.  As far as I'm concerned dogs, like people, are all different and if mine's a bit wary of strangers I'll work on it with the advice I receive locally and from those kind enough to volunteer an opinion here.

I agree with what some others say here - it sounds to me like you did not adequately socialise your dog during the very important socialisation period (up to about 16-20 wks).  It sounds like you didn't take him to a class until he was 5 mnths old.  That's far too old to begin training, and to begin being in that environment.  There are some things you can do, but you now have a problem on your hands which could have been easily avoided by adequate socialisation.  Socialisation is something you have to tackle head-on from when you get the pup at 7 weeks until about 20wks at least, by making lists of things to encounter with your dog.  Your dog should be patted and if worried, fed, by men and women of all ages, children, old people, people with sticks, people on zimmer frames and in wheelchairs.  Your dog should walk on concrete, grass, tarmac, paving slabs, pebbles.  Your dog should stand on street corners and encounter traffic, lorries, bikes, motorbikes, skateboarders, roller-bladers and joggers.  Your dog should go into shops with you (those which allow dogs), to friends' houses, to a field, to a forest, on a train, on a bus, in a car.  And it must do all this (and more) by the age of 20 wks - you can't just rely on the fact that you will 'probably' do most of those things in that time - you have to be aggressive in seeking out socialisation opportunities.  I'm not telling you all this to rant at you but so that you know and don't make the same mistake with your next dog.

As for what to do now - you should contact a behaviourist which is registered with the APBC because you prob need to follow a systematic desensitisation programme.  Most APBC behaviourists only take referrals from a vet, so probably a trip to your vet and a request for a referral is the way to go now.