Hi I took my puppy Kody (Just over 11 weeks) to a puppy party last night that is held at the local Vets. I wish I hadnt bothered. There were about 14 puppies in all shapes and sizes. Kody was reluctant to go through the door at first, but I gently persuaded him through, but within 30 seconds he was surrounded by yapping, teeth gnashing youngsters, (All smaller than him I might add) a couple of them in particular a JRT and a border collie were acting in a quite vicious way, growling and snarling at Kody who was under my chair, not just play fighting>  by the end of the hour it was absolute bedlam.  He did join in with some of the fun but because some of the pups were quite snappy it seemed to make him nervous, just the opposite of what I was trying to acquire.  People were tangled up in leads etc.   A tiny puppy had its ear bitten, quite badly by another pup, the nurse had to see to it.  Anyway this morning I took Kody for a little walk to the local field and when he saw a dog he really growled and barked at it showing his teeth, I am frightened that last nights episode may have done more harm than good.  surely it would be best for them to meet "Calm" dogs on their first social meeting.  I do have another GSD who is 7, Kody plays with her, although I have to watch them as Kody sometimes goes over the top and I am frightened Kizzy will snap, but she is a very placid, easy going girl really.  I am not an over protective owner or anything but I do honestly think that last nights party was so daunting for him and a lot of the other puppies there, that I think it will take a time for him to accept dogs now without growling at them.  Anyones views?

Oh poor Kody!!! :-( I am sorry the experience was bad for you! I got one of those invitations from my vet a few weeks ago too, but it was a bit late!! My pup is 5 months old!!! :-) So i decided not to take him because i thought most of the others would be younger. I also wondered whether Tyson would feel comfortable or not, with so many pups at the same time. Another reason for not going was that, because the invite was rather late, Tyson is soooooo BIG, compared to other pups, that he may upset some of the small ones. I hope that Kody feels better soon and forgets about his "ordeal". Sorry, cant really offer any advice except that he is still young, so hopefully no long-term damage has been done! :-) Good luck. :D

Frankly I am not infavour of these pupy free for alls at all.  Puppies do not often mix with manyother pups after they leave the litter,a dn in the litter mother would ensure things didn't get out of hand.

In this party environment you would be mixing as yet cocially inept pups of different breeds and temperamets/drives who have not been reared togather, very unnatural and not somethign they are designed to handle.

My own preference for socialisation is a Ringcraft class.  the reason I prefer ringcraft over Puppy Obedience classes is that the pups spend more time not actualy doing anything other than learning sot settle quietly and saying hello or not to various other dogfs of all ages and sizes.  Many of the owners will be very expereinced dog owners and will have the dogs training well in hadn and know how to mix them safely.

At an Obedience class I would prefer to just take the pup to sit quietly for the first class and gradualy feel at ease around other dogs (only problem often is that many of the owners are as inexpereinced as their owners, and some of the dogs will ahvew problem behaviour which is why they opted for classes).  At the next class I would only do a little of the heelwork (waling together on lead) and sit out some of it to again just watch and teach pup to settle.  Join in the sit stay, down stay and recall excersises.

wow thats awful!
i used to run puppy parties and we would always restrict the number of pups to about 5 cant belive they had so many pups and i cant believe that they were allowing pups to run riot and to have one bitten, i would be making a serious complete to the practice!!
we also only used to let the pups play together for a small period of time during during the party and certainly would not tolerate any growling and snarling. 
i would look elsewhere for a puppy socilaisation class so kody can overcome meeting such horrors!  i hope he can overcome such a dreadful experience and learn that not all dogs are so badly behaved,
kelly

Kizzy68, I agree entirely with your thoughts on puppy parties and socialisation.  No-one would let a group of children run wild with no adult supervision - without it they would end up hurting each other: the stronger ones would learn to get their way by bullying, and the smaller ones would learn to be afraid.

Who was running the party?  A vet nurse?  They don't necessarily have much experience with puppies or have the most up to date information available to them.

I hope, as your instinct tells you, you can manage to introduce Kody to some calm dogs and overlay this negative experience with some good ones.

Kizzy how awful for you and Kody. That really was the worst example of a puppy party. I often help with a puppy training class and to be honest some people are dissapointed because the first couple of sessions are mainly spent talking to the owners and expecting the pups to sit (fairly) quietly, with short periods of practice for owners and dogs to get them using the clicker or rewards effectively and getting basics like sit. If we consider it a good idea they get let off the lead 2 or 3 at a time to have a bit of a run round, but as soon as it starts getting too rough they go back on the lead. This also gets them used to being aproached by other dogs that are off lead when they are on lead. What happened at the puppy party was downright irresponsible and I hope that you will talk to one of the senior vets about your concerns, so that hopefully more pups do not suffer.  

Thanks for all your messages. I am hopefully going to take Kody to a puppy obedience class on Friday, and will as suggested sit there for a while with him so he can take it all in.  My other GSd as I mentioned is 7 but I did not get her until she was 16 months old, I took her obedience training almost immediately, in fact she still goes now once a week, she is so well behaved, she was nervous of dogs when I first got her, but now she is fine although she never really plays with other dogs, she is very aloof, but likes being in their company, fingers crossed Kody will follow in her footsteps. But after last nights trauma I am still worried as he has just been in the garden and saw next doors dog through the fence and Kody was showing his teeth and growling, which he hasnt done before, I can tell he is frightened, not so much a problem when he is small but a huge problem when he is older, must nip it in the bud if I can, so I am looking out for "calm "dogs for him to meet.

To be honest, where I used to work we held puppy party evenings and the routine (in a large hall) was this:

Come in to the hall and wait with pups on the lead whilst we waited for everyone to turn up (sometimes 5 people sometimes about 10 or so), all the time reminding the owners to keep their pup under control whilst the door was opening and closing.  Once everyone was in we would ask the owners to let the pups off the lead, occasionally the gsd litter brothers and sisters (that we bred) would have some 'loud' PLAY fights but 99% of the time all the pups had a great time, if any of them hid under a chair we would ask the human (owner or not) to leave it and walk away, keeping any 'boisterous' pups at bay and allowing the gentle pups to encourage them out, at the end of the day they are all pups and they learn through body language and interacting, if we scoop them up or allow them to hide we are only telling our dogs that there is a reason to be scared, thus encouraging nervous behaviour.  Many of the pups seemed quite taken back by the playing but I could guarantee that the following week that pup would be running around playing happily because they know its fun however we ALWAY had enough members of staff to assist and intervene where needed, putting any naughty pups back on the lead :)  After 15 mins of play we asked the owners to attempt a re-call which was always amusing but they got them back on leads whilst we did some sits, downs, waits (very short and sweet), weaving in and out of other pups, checking eyes, ears teeth etc and assisting with any problems.  After 15 mins we would ask the owners to let the pups off again so they could play, never at any point was it like you have described your experience though Kizzy but I just wanted to say how having a number of pups off the lead is not necc a bad thing.  When I took Bali to his puppy class (moved a year ago) they didn't let the pups off the lead at all and the whole thing was very boring and I feel Bali missed out on a lot of fun because of this however I made sure he got to see his litter mates and also go to ring craft socialising and he has a great nature. 

As long as the pups are supervised correctly and the whole thing is not a 'mess' the pups can have a really great time, the pups always came back to our class until they were too old (or big) therefore they moved up to a beginners course.  I wish I still worked there because even on our agility nights at the end of the class all the dogs were off the lead for free play and they loved it, don't seem to get that around here unfortunately :(

Hopefully your training class will be more successful.

I am sorry you had a bad experience.  People should not confuse puppy parties witrh puppy classes.

I would ring your vet and let them know you were not happy.  Not all vet nurses are experienced in puppy trainign and some have been on a few courses and they think they know it all.

Dont be put off as good puppy classes are well managed and give puppies experience of socialisation with other puppies of the same development stage and people and children of all ages.  The owners (who may not have owned a dog before) also learn hwo to train their puppy with kind effective methods..

Now that sounds sensible....Kody is supposed to be going back next week - NO WAY

I have yet to hear of a good vet puppy party. I took my own dog to one against my better judgement but thankfully she didn't do too badly; I can't say the same for the pups that were being pushed around by some of the other pups.

IMHO I would take her to "proper" puppy classes run by good and clued up trainers (www.puppyschool.co.uk is one website you can check out :) ).

Hth
Lindsay
x

I would recommend Puppy School but then again  am biased as the classes I run are under this umbrella. :-)

Hi Lisa - where are your Puppy School classes held?  Perhaps you could PM me? ;)

Our puppy party was great - it was for small dogs only (they do a seperate large dog party) all between 10 and 20 weeks, and there were 5 of us for an hour with two fantastic vet nurses, really into puppys and dog behaviour, they have since been fantastic and still regularly invite us to evenings like the one at 6 months. We are also encouraged to just drop in have a biscuit, stand on the scales and leave while everything is fun and nice.

We only had them off lead for a few minutes at the end in pairs to have a quick play and hello, then we all got to say hello to each dog individually and we were shown how to check teeth, and bits and eyes, and how to teach them to stand on the table and then to lye down they all got a few minutes in a vet room eating treats off the table. We were there for just over an hour which was plenty for the pups and all had a thoroughly nice time.

So there are good ones out there, you just have to look.

I am soooo glad I read this post.  As mentioned on another post I will be getting my GSD pup at the end of October and fully intend to take him to a very good puppy training class.  However I have seen a notice in my local vets for puppy parties and thought 'what a good idea' more solcialisation.  After reading of your experience I will make sure to check it out first and any doubts I will be giving it a miss.

Kizzy, we know exactly how you feel!!! I have had the same experience with puppy parties and also puppy training classes. Taffie has been pinned down at both, by more than one dog at a time, which has scared us half to death. Taffie is a friendly shih tzu  puppy, but is very scared of more boisterous bigger dogs as he has had a few bad experiences. All I can say is through this forum I have found a puppy trainer through the www.puppyschool.co.uk site and she is lovely. All the dogs are paired equally in size and temperament. Some more nervous puppies just observe and it works really well. Hope you sort things out, go with your instincts as to what is best for you and kody, if you feel happy and more importantly comfortable, it will be a better experience all round, all the best Tams.

Hi Kizzy - that is awful.  Like you, I took our pup to the vet puppy party, and like yours was, ours was a mess too.  There were only 2-3 other dogs, but the play wasn't controlled at all or stopped when it got too rough.  I kept my pup on my knee almost the whole time, and the vet and nurse probably thought I was being over-protective but I have a really well socialised and well balanced 9 mnth old pup now - she has never shown an ounce of aggression to anything or anyone in her life and I plan to keep it that way.  I had seen what should happen at a good puppy socialisation class which I was going to, and I knew it wasn't what was happening in the vet's.

My advice to everyone is - don't go to these terrible parties run by vets.  Vets are animal MEDICAL experts - they are not canine behaviourists or trainers and they don't understand canine behaviour like a good behaviourist or trainer would.  Just as in the human world, there's a difference between a doctor and a psychotherapist!

Having said that, I also have to say that I disagree with Brainless about ringcraft being the best place for pups to socialise.  Puppies DO need to play properly, off lead together.  This is how they develop bite inhibition and learn complex social skills - they cannot develop these if kept on a lead.  However:

1. Play has to be EQUAL.  This means that no pup is a bully and no pup is bullied.  Watch the interaction between them - first one pup should chase the other, then they swap and the other pup chases back for a while.  If they seem to be an equal match, that's good - if not, stop the play asap. 

2.  No pup should make frightened squealing noises if it doesn't usually do this when playing with you.  If this happens, play is getting too rough and should be stopped or at least some time out given, before you start again.

3.  Sessions should be very short - maybe 5 mins of letting the pups interact, then put them back on lead for a while. 

4.  Some pups (especially labs and goldies) play very rough - this is ok as long as it's reciprocated by the other pup and as long as they're an equal match.

5.  Some pups aren't happy in the company of other pups and express this by growling or barking at first.  Ignore this and let them just hang out on lead around the other pups.  Chuck bits of food on the floor and let them eat tasty treats while being surrounded by other pups - this will make them relax and associate other pups with good things like tasty food. 

6.  If a pup is really shy and tries to hide under chairs or behind legs, that's ok - let them have a refuge for a while and then let them come out at their own pace - you can help by throwing food on the floor to encourage them out.  When they seem ready to meet another dog, keep the other dog on a lead and let the shy dog off, so the shy dog can control its approaches and backing off from the other dog.

Take it easy and monitor all interactions all the time - you can't do this if you have 14 pups all loose at once.

Kizzy, I went to an excellent soclisation class.  Where do you live?  You're probably not anywhere near it, but if you tell me, we'll see because miracles do happen sometimes!  I think you have to make sure your pup plays with other pups asap - but they have to be the right kind of pup to suit yours - remember you don't want your pup to learn to be a bully or to learn to be a victim!

Please don't tar all puppy parties with the same brush! I help organise puppy parties at work (vets) and it is actually run by our best vet, who also has a great degree of behavioural knowledge, we attend seminars together, and she also runs agility and flyball classes outside of work and also does a lot of clicker training. Her collie is trained to a very high degree. We rarely have more than 5 puppies, usually around 3 is the norm. It is held in our waiting room so that dogs get used to having fun at the vets. It isn't a free for all. Pups are let off in pairs or groups and play is closely supervised and stopped if things are getting out of hand. She gives a lot of advice about training and socialsation as well as vet matters. She also picks up puppies and pretends to be examining them just as she would if giving an consultation. We also let two of her adult dogs in to allow them access to well behaved adults. The adults are allowed to keep order as the dam would and teaches the pups to respect their elders and keep themselves out of trouble when they eventually go out into the big wide world.
So a WELL RUN puppy party is a good supplement to a pups education (although i would use it as well as puppy classes or ringcraft) and most importantlycreates a positive view of the vets. Prehaps asking a few questions about what happens first is a good idea.

That sound horrendous - hope it has'nt put your youngster off other dogs :( - the only puppy parties we do are the sort where all our friends come round to share a bottle (or two ) of wine and cuddle/play with our pups before they leave for their new homes - it's a good excuse for a get together with all our doggy friends ;) LOL.

Yvonne

I think the main advice hre should be go and see what happens before taking your pupy.

Now that sounds like the ideal class, especially with the adult dogs too (safely vaccinated ones of course :D) .

I agree that a well run puppy socialisation class can greatly benefit pups. I have attended them with both my two and would again if we got another pup. I researched the classes in my area (as it was then) and found one I was happy with. They were more than happy for me to come and watch before we brought our pup home and they also bring in fully vaccinated, elder dogs. The woman who runs it is a behaviourist and trainer. All the pups are closely supervised and play is never allowed to get out of hand. When I got my second dog, I also him to the same class - even though we had moved house in the meantime and didn't live in the same area :)

Oh I heartily agree with you that free time playing off lead is needed.  At the ringcraft classes I have attended the pups (and humans) make freinds on lead, but there is facility to let them off lead outside the hall (held in a Park or recreation ground), and many people let their dogs have a game before classes or after, especially in the summer.

I have always taken my dogs for off lead excersise in order that they can play with other dogs, one of the amin pleasures for me to see lots of diffeernet well adjusted dogs getting on, and knowing who wants a gaem and who would rather not bother and them being able to express these desires without conflict.

Unfortunately Puppy Parties started off as good ideas, but in many cases actually do more harm than good if there is no control.  Puppies in a litter wouldn't play without some element of supervision from Mum.

My vets doesn't do puppy parties & they send people interested in socializing their puppies to out club even if they don't live close by ;) LOL John(my vet) also has a habit of mentioning my name if people are having problems :D & if I can help I do not charge them either !

Thanks for your messages, I live in Essex by the way onetwothree, I am going to have a look on the puppyschool website. as I mentioned earlier I am thinking of taking Kody to puppy training this evening, I have telephoned the trainer and told her what happened she said just bring him along to spectate at first as some of the newer puppies in the class are still a bit boisterous, we will just have to see how Kody reacts.

I have just looked on the puppy school website no tutors in Essex. Ah well never mind.  I take my eldest dog training every Sunday morning and Wednesday evenings (During the summer) The guy who trains them is excellent, doesnt charge a penny.  I will also have a word with him, although they are adult dogs they are all very well behaved so it could be a calmer environemnt for Kody. He could stand and look as these dogs are obviously very advanced in their training, kody couldnt really join other than learning a bit of heel work.  At the moment I take him for short walks with my 7 yr old GSD, but he is so besotted with her he takes no notice of me, I will have to take him out on his own so that he can concentrate a bit more. Trouble is at the moment he feels "Safer" with her

Kizzy 68 - we had a rather stressful time at a puppy party recently with our border terrier, Charlie.  However, the class was much smaller (5 puppies) but there were 2 much bigger & older dogs a GSD and a spaniel.  Charlie reacted by trying to snarl and bite the other dogs as he was so frightened.  The veterinary nurse suggested that she hold one of the other dogs (the GSD) while Charlie was able to sniff around him.  This seemed to do the trick and the 2 older dogs and Charlie spent the rest of the session tearing around the reception area at the vets together!  Once he can go out (Tuesday hurrah!!!), we are going to carry this on by asking dog owners if they would let Charlie investigate their dogs first - we are concerned that he may always react like this to bigger dogs and this is obviously not what we want.

Hi

Im always interested to know what people make of the puppy parties held at vet clinics and from the above posts it seems there are very mixed views.

I've been a veterinary nurse for 5 years and have taken an additional course for 2yrs in canine behaviour, I run a puppy party every week and have yet to come across any unhappy owners. ( have a anonymous questionnaire which all clients complete at the end of the course.)

So I must say I find the statements that vets and nurses only have 'medical knowledge' slightly offensive. Animal behaviour is a large part of the veterinary nursing course.

Peoples opinions on training and appropriate behaviour differ greatly and I have to take this into account when running the class.

I always insist on all puppies being restrained on leash and carefully select which puppies I let off together. Boisterous, confident puppies are kept on the lead while the timid, not so sure pups are able to roam and come out of their own accord. Different breeds react differently and this too is always taken into account.
A great deal of ecouragement usually pays off and these puppies are usually the most confident at the end of the course. Which is what we want. I will speak to owners one on and one and offer further help if they are at all concerned.

At the end of the day puppy parties are what they are, they are not obediance classes but are a great way of getting your puppy used to coming to the vets and hopefully associating it as a fun place to be, socialisation and habituation are extremely important but I agree with you all that this needs to be in a controlled way.

I guess like everything there are good and bad classes but please dont tarnish us all with the same brush, I am very proud of my puppy parties which I might add I do in my own time free of charge and I put alot of time and effort into organising them and making them as helpful as possible. (which im sure you will find alot of us VN's do)
Lauren

I am not an over protective owner or anything but I do honestly think that last nights party was so daunting for him and a lot of the other puppies there, that I think it will take a time for him to accept dogs now without growling at them.  Anyones views?

My view is that these puppy parties need to be split into breed relevance, there is no point in putting loads of pups together in one room to mingle and play as different breeds play in different ways a pup really does not understand this and can easily become frightened and unsure, especially when we have different sizes, shapes and weights to consider as well as different ferocities of play. 

Far better to wait for classes, which are supervised far better with obedience and not a free for all.

I've had my own puppy parties at 6 months and although fun they are mad, but at least the size and play is the same and easily supervised.

I wouldn't personally go to a puppy party for the reasons already stated, but having read the post above, I guess it depends on who is running it.

Now, puppy classes a must and great for owner and pup to bond and socialise. Get your pup enrolled a.s.a.p, but look around for the best ones. :-)

I only ever went to one puppy class and swore I would never go again. I argued with everything that the vet nurse was trying to say, she got several things wrong for my breed, and others. The other people there were all pet owners, some of them had never had a dog before so didn't know to disagree. I think that the nurse was glad to see me go :-p though a couple of the people talked to me afterwards to thank me for speaking up. They didn't agree either, but were too scared to say anything.

These classes are ok, if the right people know what to say in the first place. I would much rather take my pups to obedience classes, ringcraft, etc, than to a puppy party.

Both mine went to puppy parties at the vets. The nurse was lovely and she knew i disagreed with her on some points, but that was just what i felt and she was running these mainly for a pet audience - not to cover those who breed/show/work etc.
Max of about 6 pups of all breeds/types. They all start on a lead and the more timid pups are let off first for a few minutes to find their feet and then one by one the more confident ones are let off. If there is any snappy, growling etc the culprit is put back on a lead and owners are told to ignore the pup to allow it to calm down. Once calm is allowed back off again.
Its over a 2 week period and the owners are taught the most basic of dog ownership. She would advise not to walk them too far and gave good examples, not to play with sticks etc. She advised about worming, first aid, feeding, behaviour, innoculations etc etc etc..

We also did ringcraft and obedience too as soon as jabs were done.

wow thats terrible!
Our past vet held a puppy party and they organised it by breed size and age. They only allowed a certain number of puppies join and it was very controlled and structured. Im sorry your pup had to have such a bad experience :( Keep socialising him with the right kind of dogs and he should come around

personally i think they are worth their weight in gold if run properly. I've just finished doing one tonight, 2 labs and a goldie. One of the labs was very scared but after half and hour she started to come out of her shell and eventually started playing and became a differnt dog. It also transpired that the other lab's owners were rubbing the pup's nose in their mes and hiting them wih a rolled up newspaper for play biting. Owner was mortified when we explained that that was not the way to do things and was so grateful and upset that she had done it, but without the party she may not have been educated in it before it had a detrimental effect. Similarly a new dog owner struggling with her first pup and kids and had been told by the breeder to not crate under any circumstance and to not spay until she was 8 years old! Luckily we were able to educate her too and they all left feeling alot happier and the pups will benefit too.