Hi,
I am just after different opinions on the best way to crate train a pup at night.  I will be getting my long awaited for GSD pup at the end of October ( not even born yet).  I have a large indoor dog crate for night time but am not 100% sure the best way to do this.  I know that an 8 week old pup cannot be expected to last all night without going to the toilet, so I will sleep on the bed settee with the crate near me till I can gradually move it to the kitchen. (don't fancy having a grumpy OH, being woken up numerous times at night by having the crate in the bedroom.).  Anyway my question is,  do I set an alarm a couple of times a night to take out the pup, or wait till he crys.  I ask because he may be in the crate for short periods at other times and I don't want to train him to think he just crys to get out of the crate. On the other hand I  have heard puppies cry and with most no-one would ever sleep through it, but what if he only gives a wimper and I don't hear him?
As I have waited so long for my pup I am anxious to get as much info as possible BEFORE he arrives.
The breeder I have found is wonderful and I will be discussing it with her, but as there is so much experience on this site I wanted to try to find out what you all thought.
Any experiences/advice would be most welcome.
Thanks

If your in the same room you will hear him cry for the loo otherwise set an alarm i stayed on the sofa for three nights then went up to bed and he whined for a while once he realised i wasnt giving in he stopped then i just woke every hour to two and took him out no talking to him just out for ten mins then in straight back to bed also a ticking clock under the blanket is a good idea helps them feel as though mums heart beat is near try covering the crate with a sheet and leave door entrance clear

Okay , everyone hates my advice but here goes;

When you get your puppy , i would spend the first day or two with him at night in your bedroom or on the couch so he knows you are his new mother/father. Instant use of the crate will make him believe he was abandonded and being taken away from his mother and littermates he will be very sad.

Once you have a slight bond , start using the crate. The first night he is in there you may need to take him out atleast once over night if you leave water in his crate (i don't). Expect him to pee in it if you don't take him out. Ever since 10 weeks my puppys schedule was always bed at 10pm until 6 in the morning(in crate) and he is very much fine with this (i cut his water out at 8 till he wakes up in the morning, he doesn't drink it anyways but everyone will tell you otherwise, he has never had an accident)

Ignore any of his attempts to get your attention , he may cry the whole night but don't take him instantly when he starts crying. Your instincts will tell you when he has to go, he will soon get used to this schedule and only howl when he really needs to go. Unless you keep his crate in your basement and have your door shut or wear earphones then you will be able to hear his pee cry.

PS: don't forget socialization is much more important than crate training , take him everywhere with you but don't put him on the ground until he has atleast his 2nd set of vaccinations. I would take him in the car and carry him around pet stores or just down the block.

I use a pen for mine in the kitchen and just lay paper down and leave them to it (having first warned the neighbours :))  Just about everyday brings momentous changes to them at this age, everything is new so I find they are so receptive to it all that they accept that is how it is without any great distress.  Not everyone will choose to do it this way but I find a couple of nights lack of sleep is generally all it takes as oppose to perhaps many weeks if you decide you are going to get up for each and every toileting as most puppies cannot remain largely dry at night until at least 12 weeks. 
Never, never, deprive your puppy of freely available water it is not fair to make them suffer any thirst, it risks dehydrating them and will not make any difference anyway to their need to wee as their kidneys continue working anyway and filling the bladder until the blood pressure falls to the point when the kidneys can no longer function by which time they would be dangerously dehydrated and the kidneys will start to show signs of damage. 
As I say I have a pen but any safe area with a washable floor will do, I do not put my puppies in a crate until they are pretty reliably dry at night.

Hi ,  thanks for the replys.  I did consider leaving him in the crate overnight with paper at one end of it.  I was worried though that this would make being dry overnight take longer, as he will have to go to the toilet in the crate because at 8 weeks there is no way he can last all night.
I am very much aware of the solialisation aspect.  I know he can't go on the ground ( other than in the garden) until he has completed his injections but I will definately be taking him, here there and everywhere by carrying him before that.
I think I will probably put him in the crate next to me even if it has to be for a few weeks.  It won't be any worse than being up with my kids when they were small and teething.
My last GSD could never last all night without needing the loo.  Vet checked and nothing wrong, but his whole life I had to get up at least once to let him out.  ( At least he told me he needed out)
  It's good to get different opinions on these things I think, as I have read lots of things on the site and sometimes you can come accross something you hadn't thought of.
Anyway thanks again.

Hi taro,

It's always good to plan ahead - you should get together with Natalie on here :P

It's no doubt a very exciting as well as frustrating time for you to wait - but great that you're doing lots of research and actively seeking info because it's bound to be less of a culture shock when the special day arrives to pick up your furry family member.  And we'll want to know all about the new arrival a.s.a.p.

Regards, Teri :)

Isabel your take on depriving of water is true , but only applies when water is deprived for days not nightly hours. If a human can go through the night without water then a dog can is what my vet told me.

We have already discussed this, puppies have speedier metabolisms, hence they are fed several times a day, also being small animals they have small blood volumes and as the urine continues to be produced whether they get a drink or not why make them suffer in this way.  My puppies, with free access to water, are often dry at night by as young as 12 weeks.
I agree an adult dog (who has had the forsight to consume his 24 hour requirement of water during the period allowed him :rolleyes:) would probably not come to any lasting harm going through the night but they may well suffer thirst even if they don't always drink every night again, mine often have a sup in the night but it does not prevent them going through to morning.  I am also beginning to wonder whether causing regular thirst might make a puppy or dog drink inappropriately large amounts when it gets access to water.
I think you and your vet are out on a limb on this one animal husbandry books of all types say water should always be available to animals after all you cannot always make them understand it won't be available later.

Manny,

Isabel's "take" on depriving water is true 24/7 - why do you keep waxing lyrical with the same bad and potentially dangerous advice?

>If a human can go through the night without water then a dog can is what my vet told me.<

If that's the best comparison your vet can come up with, perhaps it's time to think of changing him too - it's certainly not in keeping with anything any vet has told me which includes specialists at the top of their fields who train and lecture other vets world wide.

You have some good and practical suggestions for posters on other matters and then throw it to the wind by continually repeating to remove water for a period of 10-12 hours :(  You've yet to find even one experienced poster to agree with you on that.  Please, for the sake of novice owners and, even more, for the dogs themselves, don't persist with this argument.

regards, Teri

I dont know if I am just lucky but I put my 9 wk old German shepherd in his crate the first night in the utility room just off the kitchen , I went to bed early as I told my partner I would probably be up 3 or 4 times during the night.  I couldnt believe when I woke at 6 the next morning to see Kody the puppy just sitting there in his crate, no wee wee or anything! I put him in the garden his did his wee and business.  He is now 11 and a half weeks old and he sleeps all night every night in his cage from about 9 until 6.  He goes in there himself during the day for a little kip when he feels like it. I dont know if it makes any difference having another older GSD who sleeps in the kitchen and he can see her through the glass door, but I cannot believe my luck.

^kizzy i got lucky to , same schedule as well 9-6

Hi Kizzy,

I think you have been lucky - but enjoy :)  No offence intended but I do hope your puppy always has access to water, including in his cage.

My puppies at 8-10 have always had late bedtimes and early rises which means they initially are only in a cage or pen (in my bedroom :P ) for a maximum of 5-6 hours (if I'm lucky :rolleyes: ) and apart from the occasional accident over the years I've found that to work very well and I simply increase the length of time before I get up gradually up to 12 weeks by which time they are clean and content for 7-8 hours.

Glad that yours is being particularly accommodating already!  I wish you continued good luck, Teri :) 

It doesn't matter whether he has water or not , within 2 seconds of being in his crate he will kick his water bowl over and make a fuss because he wants an empty clean crate , he doesn't like toys or blankets and doesn't want his water bowl in there so whats the point of just having him knock it over, he doesn't drink at night for a fact , he wakes up for 5 minutes to yawn and stretch then goes back to sleep. Everyone will have different ideas on this subject , common sence will tell you "dogs should never be deprived of water." My dogs prefer this schedule and i'm just telling what works whether you want to take my advice or not, it's an open forum of course and i am not telling you to..... BEAT YOUR DOG SENSLESS! :p

PS: I'm not trying to initiate an arguement or controversy so don't take this comment as an offence post towards you Teri.
PSS: This behaviour is the same with all my golden retrievers , which have all come from the same breeder in the last 20 years so i guess they have the same tempermant.

Good luck , Manny.

Hi again Manny,

There are numerous types of water bowls in a range of shapes, sizes and materials which can be clipped, bolted, screwed, tied and hung over the bars or mesh of a cage!  No need for any spillages - so, excuse the pun, but that argument doesn't hold any water :rolleyes: :P :D

To say your dogs "prefer this schedule" is, frankly irrelevant - they can neither speak for themselves nor go out and buy an appropriate recepticle for water which can be safely attached inside their cage without getting in their way and at any level which suits them best.

If you are not intending to be argumentative or controversial, then why on earth do you keep arguing the same controversial point?

Teri ;)

Oh yes , i have tried these they are called crooks or something , he doesn't like this either he chews up the bowl and knocks it off the little stand that you clip onto the crate , trust me none of them drink at night , even my 12 year old leaves his water bucket. How do i know this if i'm sleeping?; because he's a very bad dribbler so i put newspaper down under the bucket , if he were to be drinking the newspaper would be all crinkled in the morning :p, and yes he does dribble his water everytime he drinks.

Here we go again, seconds out, round four hundred and whatsit :P

There are dozens of types of bowls as described - mostly made of metal so thoroughly non chewy ;)  Many don't have or need stands - the fixings for most are on the outside of the cage :)

In any event you are promoting your method as the ideal - and with the best will in the world (struggling to be diplomatic here :rolleyes: ) you are a lone voice on the suitability of that method.  Please, as requested, do not promote this as the norm :(  Just because it has worked for you (and you alone) does not make it acceptable to a broader audience and believe me when I say you can be assured that welfare organisations would not condone your "water schedule".

Regards, Teri

Understandingly i do realize why people think my way of scheduling is inhumane. I just don't agree with people telling me its BAD for MY dogs and whatnot. Do THEY even know MY dogs? Even if organizations commanded me to leave water down at night it would not matter to me at this point , im confident my dogs will not drink because i HAVE tried leaving water down :p. Hell i'll start leaving water down for the sake of the matter , what a waste it will be to just pour a full bucket of unused water down the drain in the morning :(

Understand me now?

As for the differnt types of bowl in the crate , my latest GR puppy HATES HATES HATES anything in his crate , it doesn't matter if it is bolted down he will cry all night until i take it out, which is uneeded and avoidable behaviour.

>Hell i'll start leaving water down for the sake of the matter

Great news :P 

None of us want to be criticised for how we treat our dogs - so I DO understand that you could be offended ;)  The main aim of members who have become involved in this particular repeated *debate* is that you don't advocate to Guests and novice owners to remove water

So for the sake of good practice (and harmony :P ) can you please leave that particular recommendation off of your posts?  It would be very much appreciated.

Cheers, Teri :)

Ok ok , no more of my water depriving advice. Anyone who sees my name on forums associates me with this anyhoo so i wouldn't even have to mention it :p. If you think i am still on this forums to create controversy well then..... IM NOT! Just here to offer some help way out here in Canada!

I just take offence to people who critize the way i raise my dogs , noone would like it if i made fun of their ways of life!

>Ok ok , no more of my water depriving advice

You're a Star Manny - THANK YOU ;)  Welcome aboard the forum BTW!!!!

Regards, Teri

And thank you!

Maybe i should make a formal introduction;

Hi i'm Manny i live in Ontario, Canada. I have 3 children , 4 dogs and 3 cats. I used to play in the CFL (toronto argonauts). YOU? :p

Hi,

Like you my user name is the real thing :)  I live in Scotland (marginally less cold than Canada!)  have a patient and devoted hubby, one darling daughter and the current head count among the resident furbies is three, all Belgian Tervuerens, aged 10 yrs, 5 yrs and 14 months plus a fourth which is co-owned but lives with friends :)  I'm not in the least sport inclined but we show our Tervs in conformation (breed ring) as a hobby :)

Lovely , Belgian Tervuerens , are these 'Belgian Shepherds'? I've always wanted to train one to be a guard dog , one of my hobbies as well! I mainly do giant schnauzers or dogos :) I also once accomplished to train a chihuaha to be a very good bark alert dog :)

Yes BSDs, they're one of the the long haired varieties (red, fawn or grey with black overlay).  The most commonly used for "work" are the Malinois which are short coated and are becoming an increasingly popular choice with police, armed forces etc instead of the German Shepherd.  I prefer the glamour of the long coats myself.   As for training, my lot excel in counter surfing, hogging the sofas, all squeazing INTO bed with us (more often than not BEFORE us :P ) and herding up strangers in the park to join us on our walks :rolleyes:  But hey, gotta just luv 'em :P

My lot excel in breaking all 3 of my sons noses , 2 at the same time and once had broken thrice. They are 12,12(twins) and 15 so it's just them playing rough and getting head butted. Love is a pain.

Been nice getting to know you more Manny :)

No idea what time it is in Canada but it's almost 3-30am here so I'm going to gather up the gang and, as per usual, I'll tip toe into bed trying not to wake OH just before the three hairy ones jump all over him vying for the best position :rolleyes: :D

Hope to chat again soon.  Night night for now. Teri ;)

>This behaviour is the same with all my golden retrievers , which have all come from the same breeder in the last 20 years so i guess they have the same tempermant

"This behaviour" is a direct result of your personal animal husbandry - not a conscious decision by the dogs

Teri ;)

Good day and Good night!