Tigger had her litter of pups then when the last one went in fact the following day mollys arrived.  There should have been a gap in between but I got a buyer who couldnt cope so the puppy had to come back.  Now usually all the girls get back together once the puppies are 4 weeks old but this time as soon as Tigger and Molly meet there is warfare.  It is now 9 nearly 10 weeks post whelping and they are still not getting on.  We let them meet in the garden and there were no raised hairs but we were standing on standby with hose pipes.  We actually think Tigger not being the brightest cookie in the batch thinks Molly has stole her puppies.  Has anyone any suggestions on how to get them back together safetly.  We are all going to Bournmouth together and they are being shown together on Saturday. Any suggestions gratefully recieved.   We have never had any problems whatsoever so am completely at a loss on what to do.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here...

There are 2 bitches with 2 seperate litters but one mother is taking care of some of the other bitches puppys?

If this is the case what about seperating the puppys with there own mothers for the time being.

No two bitches both caring for their own litters but they had them following on from each other.  The first ones litter went then the following day the other one had her puppies.  Now no puppies but still not getting on.

I still have a hard time understanding the issue =/ could you make it a bit more clear?

It really is quite simple, Mannynmax:

1.   Thomas the Spot has two bitches, both of whom have recently had litters.   
      Litter 1 was born, reared and passed on to their new "forever" homes 1 day before
      Litter 2 was born.   Litter 2 has now been reared and and also gone to their new homes.

2.    Mothers of both litters have, until now, lived in harmony.    There is now friction between   
      them.

3.    Thomas the Spot is asking if anyone else has had experience of this, and how it was dealt with.

No need for prong collars/crates without water here! ;)

Margot

Once again , someone who doesn't come to offer help but to flame me :) i love it.

I've offered you help and clarified what you didn't understand!

Maybe its because YOUR posts seem so aggressive/one way only?????

no it's ok i'll have my wife put a pinch collar on me and correct me when i get out of hand.

The Right One Laughs Last!

No, no flaming here. Just the explanation you requested.
:)

;)

Margot

Hi Thomas the spot it does seem abit odd doesn't it, maybe in time they'll get over it.  i can't help you much because i've got no experience of it.  How about taking them on a walk together in that way both of them are on a lead and enjoying themselves, so they want feel the need to squabble and them maybe they get on abit better, slowley introducing them again until they behave themselves towards each other.  I'm just plucking at straws here.  Good luck anyway with them and at your show.  By the way Karen i've just had a sneaky peek at your dogs and they're lovely and so are the pups.

Warm regards susan

That seems very sensible, Susan. :) TTS, how are they with each other on neutral territory?

TTS - are you on your own for both shows?  Or will you have someone with you?     What about taking a crate?    Might that help with splitting them up, if needs be?

Can't offer any other advice at the moment, I'm afraid - Susan's suggestions seem good to me.

Margot

Thomas,

I don't know whether this is way off the mark but after my Bitch had pups she was convinced she was top of the heap (always was a pushy madam anyway :rolleyes: ) it took almost 9 months before she accepted that I was to be listened to it didn't matter what the situation she thought she was in charge.  Going for a walk?  she pulled everywhere (this had stopped till she had pups)  Let her off the lead and want her to come back now?  Not yet thank you but maybe when I'm ready, maybe!  Think she should go in the garden for toilet? - nuh-uh not on your life (even tho she definately needed to go ;) )   nothing aggressive - just good old non-co-operation.   I put it down to having had pups and just treated her as if she needed training all over again :) After all I've had pups too and they were way bigger than hers (ouch! )

Perhaps your two are going thru a similar thing, except they both think they are top of the heap :D  And they've forgotten its supposed to be you ;)

For what it is worth, here's my personal experience of two bitches that did not get along.

Elsa the Golden is 3 years older than Ripley the Malinois, so hence lived here first.  When Ripley was around 2 years old, Elsa started trying to put her in her place. At first little things, like if you were talking to Ripley, Elsa would push in front and demand attention. Then bigger things, like actual attacks -but it was always in certain circumstances. I.e. say I did a down stay with both (or all the dogs), once the release word was given so they dogs could move Elsa would jump at Ripley and bite.  Once during a walk I grabbed Ripley's collar to restrain her, and at once Elsa jumped on her neck -and managed  to bite ME; as my hand was on the neck. It went on like this, and each time it became more and more serious.

It was suggested to me by a behaviourist that one of the bitches needed to be shown clearly that she ranked higher than the other, and that I needed to chose one. I chose Ripley simply because she is the more sensible one in many ways, and although younger, the stronger. So we started to feed Ripley before Elsa (this is one situation where order of feeding can make a difference- but between the DOGS themselves), Ripley would be taken for walks without Elsa, etc. It worked. Soon Elsa stopped pushing in, she'd hang back and wait her turn for attention etc. We've kept at it ever since, about 3 years now, and they are absolutely fine. However we do still have to be careful as to not blur the lines between them. As Ripley is higher ranking than Elsa, it is fine to for instance take Ripley for a walk without Elsa. We cannot do the opposite. If Elsa has had extra attention without Ripley, arrives home again, she attacks Ripley immediately. Just before Christmas Elsa had surgery and we kept her away from the other dogs whilst she had stitches in (to stop the others from licking her stitches) and she was with us most of the time but the other dogs were in the kitchen. That was a mistake. When she and Ripley was mixed together again after a couple of weeks, Elsa believed she was now more important as she had had the individual attention, she jumped at Ripley and the result was us spending Christmas Day at the vets waiting for Ripley to be stitched up in 3 places.

When Ripley has been separated for a while, such as to have pups, or just having been to a show, for a walk or to training, and then is allowed in to the other dogs again, she will walk up to Elsa and stand over her, hackles raised, showing she is in charge, but she will never hurt Elsa (and under these circumstances Elsa gives in and shows her submission) -this is what I mean about Ripley being more sensible.  Under the same circumstances Elsa will instead attack, with serious intent.

So we've made it work and when it fails and they do end up fighting it has always been our fault.

I had a similar situation years ago with two dogs, but that was easier and quicker to solve -it just took one day of making it clear which was the higher ranking dog (by giving him lots of attention and ignoring the other) then they never fought again for as long as they lived and in fact were best friends.

Marianne

Thank you all for your help.  If I am honest it is more Tigger the older bitch than Molly.  Molly is a little softie hasnt got a nasty bone in her body and yes Tigger does think she is more important than the rest of the dogs.  She is always trying to assert her importance.  We have tried to take them out and all was fine for about five minutes then Tigger jumped on Mollys neck.  I think also from Goldmali has said we might be to blame here as Molly is the one which is being kept seperate and I have been taking her to bed as I feel she is not getting enough fuss.  They are also identical ages to her two bitches.  Tigger is also totally obsessed with my husband to the point she barks if anyone touches him and she always barges in front of Molly if Ian makes a fuss of Molly.

We did bring Molly in last night and although she didnt try anything Tigger was eyeballing her from behind my husbands back.  The strange thing is neither of them raise their heckles.

Hi Thomas the spot they're probably not raising they're heckles because they know each other that well that it only probably needs alook or a other some other form of body language and the other one is onto it straight away.  I hope they get better together soon.

warm regards Susan

>>I had a similar situation years ago with two dogs, but that was easier and quicker to solve -it just took one day of making it clear which was the higher ranking dog (by giving him lots of attention and ignoring the other) then they never fought again for as long as they lived and in fact were best friends.

That's just the problem I've got with my two boys, made worse by the 8 month old puppy bitch who hasn't yet had her first season. I have tried making it clear to the lower one that the higher one is the boss, but it doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps I just need to persevere?

I have to admit it doesn't ALWAYS work Lucy. I currently have 2 male dogs that I have had to keep apart for the past 7 years (!!) as nothing at all worked. The cavalier was neutered, never fights back, is submissive, does not want the top spot etc, but the Golden is intent on killing him. :(

Marianne

Oh dear. In my case the Yankee has decided after 3 years of mostly submission that he should be boss, but the Cav is determined to remain the boss, so they want to kill each other. It also makes them a bit dodgy with other male dogs, which doesn't give the breed temperaments a good name!! Can't rehome my show dog, can't rehome my OH's hill walking dog, so we're stuck! :-( Could neuter the Yankee but don't know if it will help or make things worse. Just wait till the puppy comes in season!!!!!!!

All your replies have given me an insight into a situation that developed between my bitch and a friends bitch who visited regularly to play happily for many months.  My bitch allways eyballed the other and made it very clear that she was top dog.  My boy dog played for a short time with both of them before going to a quite corner to rest.  Harmony and good fun all round.

Then my friends youngest daughter, 5 years old, came to visit along with the dogs and started throwing toys around for my boy.  He jummped up alot to get to the toys and ran around like a lunatic playing rough as he does.  As the child was loath to stop the toy throwing, I made sure I put my dogs away when the little one was on holiday from school and came to visit.  When the holidays were over, I started to let the dogs out together again.  Big mistake.  The visiting bitch looked on my garden as her teritory while my bitch knew it was hers.  Just managed to avert what could have been a nasty battle. 

After trying on several occasions to put them together I can't allow them to play anymore.  My problem is solved though not happily and I am wondering what will happen when my bitch has puppies and I keep one.

It shouldnt be a problem when keeping a puppy.  Purdy my eldest was a dog we thought would never accept another dog being bought into the house which is why we bred our first litter.  She is brilliant with all her children and she even accepted the beagle being bought in who was four months and just treated her as if she was another one of her children.  She was quite funny because if any of the others got rough with her she just growled and glared as much as to say leave her alone and they all did. 

Thanks Thomas-the-spot thats very reassuring.

I would generally disageree with the raising of one of the dogs status.

Having chatted to people in dogs and in my own bred in particular, yes there is a status quo between the dogs, but in any situation of conflict we ahve found that taking sides makes things worse.

We can seriously misunderstand which is really dominant over the other, and in fact it may not be that clear cut in our domestic dogs, as often different indivisuals will take the lead in different situations.  Some lower ranking dogs will fight with higher rantking onhes if it is important enough for them (say food or a sexual partner).

My freind who has owned dogs for over 50 years and uusally had around a dozen living together, and my freind who does obedience with her, and I ahve foudn myself that wheh thery are falling out, YOU BAWL BOTH OUT EQUALLY.  You make it so clerar that you will not stand for squabbling in the ranks, as HELLO I AM THE HIGHEST RANKING HERE.

My freinds males who only ever have a tiff as they young oen is very food orientated and thinks it worth defending a sweet wrapper, end up trundling off comiserating with each other, becaus missis has bawled them out.  Here I don't mean shouting at them as with soem breeds this woudl excite them, I mean interveing with a good telling off.  Also parting them can make things worse.

I'm no expert on these things by any means, Brainless, but I think that is the method I stumbled upon when one of my last pair started playing up.  I have always had pairs of bitches but never had any "issues" at all before but then this was the first pair where one had had a litter so maybe that was the difference.  Anyway when a spat occured I was terrified that we where heading for the sort of suituation that I had heard about namely that when two bitches start fighting they never forgive.  As it seemed to me that the Cocker was getting altogether too bossy all round I reduced her privileges ie banned from the sofa for several days, no attention etc. which I know now is contrary to the general consensus but I had no ideas beyond acting on instinct at the time. As far as shouting at both of them when it happened, I certainly shouted at her because I felt so sorry for my beloved Dandie who did little more than defend herself to the minimum despite being perfectly capable of pulverising the Cocker if she had wanted to but, you know how it is, if there is shouting going on they all think it is directed at them anyway so not sure what difference it makes.  Well that method certainly worked for me although fights were rare and were generally hormone lead likely to kick off as the Cocker came into season but nothing every escalated from that so I would definately try that method of raising my status well up ;) if I was faced with the same situation again.  Thankfully it stopped pretty much altogether when the Cocker was spayed at the age of 8.  Phew! harmony prevailed :)