Hi, I wonder if I can draw on the vast experience of this group once again. I have a lovely litter of puppies - 10 days old. 3 girls and a boy. When I initially approached the stud dog owner he had said he would take pick of litter in payment. I have done this myself in the past and am aware of the pitfalls. We discussed the stud fee should he not want a pup for whatever reason. He emailed the stud fee to me and also mentioned it several times. The SDO (stud dog owner) came to see the pups when they were born, liked them a lot and agreed to come back later to make a choice. I have received an email tonight from SDO saying he no longer wants a pup so will just take the stud fee. No problem said I, would he like to meet somewhere to hand it over.... The only problem is the stud fee has now doubled. The SDO is now saying that the fee mentioned was in the event of a small litter, or a litter of all dogs and as I have 4 puppies - 3 bitches to choose from for myself then the fee is more. It's not the financial aspect that annoys me, but the principle. I've had two champion borzoi dogs at stud - their fees were the same whether they sired one pup or 9 - is this an outdated concept now? I don't want to fall out with the SDO, I hate animosity but we had/have an agreement and I think we should stick to it. The SDO then said if I was unwilling to pay the fee he would take a pup to sell on, I'm not going to do this, I want to find the very best homes I can for my litter - the idea of not knowing where one ends up scares me... anyway I am happy to pay the stud fee - the agreed fee - Any comments or advice welcome???

Hi chaumsong,

I have no idea if this notion of a stud fee being variable depending on litter size is breed specific, but certainly it's not an across the board way of dealing with matters.  In my breed stud fees are payable immediately following on the stud dog serving the bitch at which time the SDO would sign the appropriate form (more often than not following a second mating).  It is common practice in my breed to offer a "free" repeat stud (to same bitch) should she fail to conceive.

Although stud fees in my breed are considerably less than the price of a puppy, most good breeders would be happy to have the SDO have a puppy in lieu of a fee but, for my own part, I would only allow this on the provision that the puppy was for the SDO personally - not to be sold on.  I would expect the SDO to return a puppy to me as the breeder should it not work out for any reason - just the same as with every other puppy sold in the litter.

If no agreement was entered into about a variable fee prior to the mating I don't see how the SDO can (morally anyway) introduce this now - but do you have a proper written agreement detailing your description of events?  Has the SDO already signed the KC form re the mating?

Similarly to your own view, I would only be happy to pay the agreed stud fee.  Regards, Teri :)

   

In my own breed the stud fe is the current asking prive of a puppy.  As there are few breeders and we all tend to knw each other many SDO's would wait for the fee until pups are born and would sign litter registration form on payment of the fee.

I don't know how much the SDO is asking but I would happily pay the puppy price but would nver hand over a pup for selling on.

Whenever we have used Thomas we always draw up a stud contract to ensure there are no misunderstandings.  I cant actually see how you are going to be able to get out of this without any unpleasantness to be honest.  You could send him copies of his emails but I dont know where you stand on this in law unfortunately.

I agree, ALWAYS,ALWAYS ,ALWAYS get a written contract signed by both sides. Too late now unfortunately and can see you having problems. Maybe worth getting in touch with your breed club for advice?

chaumsong
after the matings took place did you get the mating form [forgot the proper name of this form] signed by the stud dog owner, if not i would think hes got you over a barrell!

As a stud dog owner I provide a written agreement for the owner of the bitch to sign before the mating takes place.  In it, it says quite clearly what the fee is and when it is payable.  Only when I have the money will I sign the green form.

As a breeder I insist that the owner of any stud dog I use puts something in writing also.

There are many variables as to how a stud fee is paid.  I charge a service fee of £50 (non refundable) and then the balance when I sign the form.  Others charge so much per puppy - as was the case with our latest litter.  The stud dog owner charged me so much per live puppy - therefore if it had been a small litter it would have cost less than a large litter.  Quite fair in my opinion.
Becky

If you've got something in writing the stud dog owner has to go with what they've stated inthe first place. I've never known anyone to say the price is doubled if you have more pups than usual.

As others have said I state a fee, usually the price of a pup, as again my breed is a rare breed which is usually paid at the time of the stud, or if I know the person well once the pups are born.  Once I rec. the monies then the paperwork is sent to them.

Hi Brainless,
Do you think that it is now standard practise to ask the same price of the puppies?
I do think it is quite fair to do so. But!! I was told that say your puppies sold for £800.00
The stud fee would only be £500.00 even if the bitch had 1 pup or 10,
and some people ask for there stud fee back if the bitch doesn't concieve, what would
you do if you didn't know the other breeder!! or do you think just one more free mating?
is fair,Because, it could be the bitch with the problem if the dog is proven couldn't it?
Regards
Denese

Whatever the parties agree to and think is fair,a dn also common practice within the breed is OK.  No stud owner shoudl object to you asking waht happens in any eventuality and could you please have it in writing.

In my breed the stud price for any dog be he champion or first timer is the same.  It has become common practive over the years for people to wait for the stud fee until the litter is born, and few would expect a fee if there were no pups, but a good breeder woudl ofer to cover any expenses incurred byt the stud owner, and these would ahve been paid at the time.  Here I mean petrol to take the dog to the bitch or boarding the bitch etc.

Thanks for all your comments, of course I wish now we had something in writing, it's all a learning curve! Downstream - I've never heard of this practise, so your post was interesting. I used to charge a flat stud fee, with free repeat matings in the event of no pups. I will try and resolve this as best I can - it benefits no one to have it drag on. I don't want the SDO to think I'm not willing to pay for a service received, but don't want to be taken for a fool either - we'll see what happens. Many thanks again for all your help and input. I wasn't intending breeding again anyway and this has certainly sealed that :)

You say the stud fee was mentioned in emails - have you still got them to print off?

Yes I do have, and I'll give a copy to the SDO :)

I would stand my ground about what has been agreed and sugggest that maybe if you can't agree you should contact the breed club to act as mediators, the embarrasment (if they ahve any sort of good reputation within the breed) might just make them stick to the original agreement, especially as you have stuff in writing in emails.

Maybe I'm being really stupid here (probably) but what would happen if you used a stud dog on this basis, no contract as in this case and there are no puppies??? You haven't paid for the stud as you were going to pay per live puppy and your bitch has missed. Next season you decide that your not going to mate her to that dog or in fact mate her at all as your circumstances have changed. What would happen then?

Morally you should still offer to pay the stud fee or at least something to cover the stud dog owners time and trouble.  After all the dog did his job.

But then surely the stud fee should be paid at the time of service? It's just as morally wrong for the stud dog owner to change their mind to suit themselves? ie: pay per live puppy, but if she misses pay me anyway??

We don't have a per puppy fee in our breed but because teh stud fee is the prive of a puppy most stud owners woudl not charge if the bitch has missed. A free treturn is offered, but if the breeder decides not to return they are liable to pay the dtud owner something.  Again these things shoudl all be ironed out when you apply to use the dog, so all eventualities are covered.

I had one litter where the SDO gave me £50 of my stud fee back as with only 3 pups and a C section I was well out of pocket, I didn't expect this though.

That is why I charge a service fee.  For example the last bitch that Macro mated came three times.  Each time the bitch was with us for an hour.  I try and be as flexible as possible but it does cut into my day and time and so therefore by charging a "service fee" which is not refundable does not commit the owner of the bitch to using the dog again in the event of no puppies.

You are right - it is a learning curve.  My mother is litter secretary for the Flatcoated Retriever Society - a job she has done for 20 years and we have heard some dreadful tales of how people - both stud dog owners and bitch owners who have been stitched up.  You get to learn quite quickly!

Sadly we no longer live in a world of complete trust.

Becky

I paid a stud fee at the time of service last year and my bitch missed. I chose not to go back to the stud (various reasons) therefore I have lost the fee but that's life and my choice. I've never heard of anyone getting money back? I was offered a free return but decided against it. I advised the SDO that she had missed last year but I wasn't quite sure what the ettiquette was as to wether I phone and say I'm not coming back or just to leave it? I suppose we all take a verbal agreement as a binding contract but If anything this thread has taught me to get a contract drawn up in writing to save any differences later on. Although I would feel mighty cheeky asking my breeder/SDO for a contract as she's been breeding for 50+ years and I am a mere novice LOL!

You've got to take into account that stud fees in Cockers are quite a bit lower than the price of a puppy (compared to other breeds where they are about the same) so the question of refunding stud fees doesn't usually arise ;-) It's usual in our breed for the stud fee to be paid up front & not too many stud dog owners would ask for a puppy instead. If you are going for some sort of arrangement outside of the breed norm, then everything should certainly be written down so there are no disagreements afterwards but generally you won't find stud contracts used in Cockers - I can just see your SDO's face if you asked her for a contract before using one of her dogs :D

Jane

Yip same here Gwen . Stud fee about 1/2 the price of a puppy and it is always paid up front.   Never heard anyone doing it any other way in our breed so far.   We don't have a lot of puppies , 4 in the average.

I know thats what I meant, I've never heard of a refund, not even with my limited experience. Your right I could just imagine her face :-o not that I would ever dare ask ;-) I really meant in cases where the arrangement isn't the norm.

Yep, in my breed it is roughly half the cost of a puppy, unless you are using the multi ticket champions in which case it's probably more. When my boy was first used we agreed a price per puppy as he was unproven, then the next time I got a stud fee at time of mating, but agreed a free stud in case the bitch missed, which she did. If he only wants the puppy to sell on I would try to agree payment of the fee originally agreed on, not some fancy doubled figure! Depends how much you want to keep the SDO as a friend / acquaintance as to how stubborn you want to be!

In my breed, which has a very small gene pool, many of us charge a minimal fee - normally about £150 - payment to be made in exchange for the signed green form.

Some breeders do charge the price of a puppy and upfront at that but most of us are more interested in keeping our breed alive than making money - mind you a group of us in the North of England have also set a price for puppies, although the breed as a whole are not fantastic breeders we don't want our breed becoming marketable because of the high price a puppy or stud fee fetches.

I am not having a go at other breed's practices but I do find it interesting what others do, for example a friend of mine paid £800 up front to use an unproven dog, £800 being the price of a puppy at the time in the breed.

Pups in our breed are around the £500 mark and stud fees the same. 

As it is a numerically small breed (around 120 pups or 20 litters bred a year) and many dogs that are used may only be used once or twice in their life a puppy prive seems fair, as the stud owner will have had to shell out at least £300 to Hip score and keep the anuual eye tests up to date.