Hi,

Just like to say that this weekend, my 12 week old Lhasa Apso pup (Cookie) has finally accepted me and my girlfriend as being the pack leaders.

Since the day we brought him home, he's been confined in a play pen and we let him out when we are in the living room.  He's been fine from day one, he's happy to be confined in the pen and we use puppy training pads too and he's been doing very well with them.  He still has the odd peeing accident when we let him roam around the living room, but he always does poos and over 95% of his pees on the pad which is good.

he's use to bark quite alot when we were in the house but not in the living room with him and he use to get up  at the crack of dawn every morning and we had to stay in the living room with him to keep him quiet.  We tried tapping him on the nose lightly when he was naughty but this didn't work so we stopped, we now pick him up and look him in the eyes and tell him to "Be Quiet" or "Calm down" and this works like a treat!

For the past few days, he's still been crying and the odd bark (Quietly and discretely (The cheeky little dog!)) during the morning at about 6am but I would now go into the living room and pick him up, look him in the eyes and tell him to "Be Quite" and sleep and he would do so and not make any noises until we finally get up.  During this weekend, me and my girlfriend have been sleeping until 10am and his behaviour has generally improved dramatically.

The only problem he's still having is that he occasionally still eats his poos, I think he's only eating the poos which are not totally digested and leaving the digested ones alone.  Hopefully, he'll grow out of this bad habit.  If anyone has any suggestion, please let me know.

I'm actually very suprised in how quickly we have trained him and he's had his last inject last week so we can take him out from wednesday onwards.  We can't wait.  Cookie is turning out to be a great little dog and we are loving him more and more every day.

If anyone is having problems training their pup, I think the problem is that you're most likely not establishing yourself as the pack leader.  Here are my tips and it worked with my Cookie:

1) ALWAYS eat before your dog does and never give them scraps from the table as they will expect it everytime.  Also, your dog will also learn that you, being the leader has better food than he does, so if you give him your food, your dog will bring themselves higher in the pack ladder.

2) ALWAYS walk through doors before your dog does.

3) Instead of just telling him off when he's done something wrong, pick him up, look them directly in their eyes and tell them off that way.  (This way, he will know who is the leader and will soon get the message and respect you)

I stook to these 3 mean principles and it's worked like a treat in the space of a few weeks. :)

[quote]1) ALWAYS eat before your dog does and never give them scraps from the table as they will expect it everytime.  Also, your dog will also learn that you, being the leader has better food than he does, so if you give him your food, your dog will bring themselves higher in the pack ladder.

2) ALWAYS walk through doors before your dog does.

3) Instead of just telling him off when he's done something wrong, pick him up, look them directly in their eyes and tell them off that way.  (This way, he will know who is the leader and will soon get the message and respect you)

I stook to these 3 mean principles and it's worked like a treat in the space of a few weeks. [/QUOTE]

This information sounds as if it's been taken straight out of a certain well known, well publised fairly recent book.

1) The 'pack leader' does NOT always eat first - when there are puppies in the pack, it is often the pups that eat first, and the Alpha or leader will rarely bother even the lowest of the low - everyone in the pack is entitled to eat in peace.

2) The pack leader does NOT always have to go through a door way first, so long as he doesn't show disrespect to the leader by shouldar or hip charging through a small space, the order of progress is imaterial.

3) By picking up a dog you are elevating it's status, by staring it in the face you are asking to get your face bitten off - anybody trying such techniques with a larger dog could be in SERIOUS trouble.

The reason these techniques have worked with your dog is that you have been consistent, and you have trained your dog in what you require of it - the order in which you eat or go through doors means NOTHING to your dog other than this is the way it's done in this house.......

I think you will find most ppl let these 'training methods' go out with the ark John. If it works for you then so be it but I'll stick to the new play and reward methods I think. If you check out the other dominance/fear aggression post on this behaviour board Digger gives a link to a site that may be worth you reading.

BTW, eating own faeces is a pup's way of hiding their existance from preditors. You pup is just lacking a bit of confidence - doesn't sound like he needs to know who is pack leader, if he is doing that he certainly isn't interested in the postion himself. 

I would also say that if a 12 week pup is not getting any breakfast until after 10am he may be eating them because he is jolly hungry!

And I would like to add that when he barks at 6 am SURELY that is asking to GO OUT, I cannot imagine a 12 week old pup not being allowed to go to toilet until 10 am! With pups that young there IS no such a thing as a lie in.

Marianne

I'd suggest this pup is eating his faeces because he doesn't feel treasured and valued as a pack member at all - he's depressed!

Pack Leader rules for a 12 week old puppy?? What your puppy needs at this time is love, care, understanding and to learn what the rules of the house are in a kind, gentle way. These techniques may work for you now becuase puppies are insecure and lack confidence to stick up to big huge humans, but just wait until your puppy gets some confidence (as it will when it grows up), any rough-handling will make the puppy fearful and eventually will defend himself by the only means available when it cannot escape - biting! You will also be teaching your puppy that humans can be dangerous and potentially you can create some very serious behavioural problems.

PLEASE treat your pup kindly. If your puppy barks in the morning is because it is lonely or wants the toilet. Why are you leaving him on his own until 10:00 a.m.? If he is attention barking, then just ignore him. He will soon realise that barking doesn't work.

Ignore the behaviour you don't want, but ensure that at the same time you teach your puppy what is acceptable and reward him for doing so. 'The Perfect Puppy' is a good book to get, but also seek the help of an APDT trainer (www.apdt.co.uk) who will be able to advise you what is the correct way to train a puppy. If you get it wrong, then you will make you and your puppy's life very miserable and as I said, some serious behavioural problems can arise.

All the best,
Patty

P.S. If you have punished your puppy for soiling, then this could be a reason why he is eating his poo. Also, he could be very hungry by 10:00 a.m.! Dogs can also eat their poo out of boredom. Please seek the right help and do not use any aversive with your puppy - he is a young life endowed to you and you have a responsability to be a kind and fair 'teacher/parent' to him. Your puppy should idolise you and never, ever fear you. Work on forming a strong, positive, loving bond, not on getting a sleep in.

The more I think about this post, the more I think the OP doesn't actually want a dog at all - I think a stuffed toy would probably meet their needs better.......

I feel the same, it is so sad, poor little puppy. 

They lay in bed until 10am and wonder why the puppy is barking and eating it's poo. :rolleyes:

Words fail me.

I'm glad I'm not the only one saddened by this, and thinking "Poor little scrap". :(

It's not even as if it's a big tough breed that a lot of people will think needs to be "mastered".....

Does the dog go outside at all.. in a pen and pad trained is not the life for a dog. 10am sleeps go out the window when you have dogs.

Not if you go to bed at 4-30 am Blue ;) :D

This surely has to be a WUM post - it's hard to imagine that in this day and age one person can manage to get every part of training so completely wrong :rolleyes: -  I HOPE anyway  :(

Teri

I hope it is Teri a WUM.

Th only time I get past 7 am sleep is if I have prearranged it before falling asleep with OH LOL :-D

Poor little tyke :( I dont even expect my adult dogs to wait till 10am to go outside and to get their breakfast. It sounds like this pup is eating it's poop because he is bored or has been punished in the past for pooping inside.

John this a little life you are talking about,not a machine or robot! As someone else mentioned your pup lacks confidence right now,but just wait till he matures and gains confidence,this whole thing could back fire on you :(

Everything you mentioned in your post made me cringe. Sorry.but something just sounds off??

FTR you do not get sleep ins with a puppy in the house. I hardly got a full nights sleep when mine were young,letta lone a sleep in.

I surely hope nobody takes your advice :(

Hi,

My dog hasn't been outside yet as he's not fully vacinated until Wednesday and he uses his puppy training pad when he needs a poo or pee so I can't see how I'm not letting him soil in the morning.

I'm actually quite saddened by some of the peoples replies on this post suggesting that we don't love our pup or we are neglecting him or something.  We treat our pup with much love and respect and we constantly play with him 24/7.  OK, I might have had a lie in this weekend until 9.30-10am but I still got up at my usual time at 7:15am to see him and play with him before going back to bed.

Anyway, the method of training, which we've adapted has been very successful and as well as love and respect for our pup, discipline is also important and that's one of the key success to a healthy human dog relationship.  I just thought it might be useful to share my experiences with some of the people here and to give some helpful hints........but all I got was people saying that it's not the right way and suggesting that we've been abusing our pup or something.  This post has really saddened me as our pup has always loved us, since the first day we got him and he's been always happy and always playful with us.  For people to suggest that we neglect or abuse him is just really saddening. :(

>My dog hasn't been outside yet as he's not fully vacinated until Wednesday

But what about in your own secure garden? Surely he's taken out there to play and get housetrained?

John you havnt even taken him out the backyard? How are you planning on housetraining him? Has he NEVER played outside or felt the sun shine?

Sorry if i misunderstood your post,but it sounded as iff your pup has never been outside the house.

poor puppy

i would recommend people read the perfect puppy or puppy school by gwen baily rather than use the methods posted in the original email

Did you breeder give you advice how to bring the pup up. Just because you think you are doing it perfectly doesn't mean you are doing it 100% right.

The pup can go outside IF no other dogs have access to the area etc and it is of huge benefit if they do I think.

You don't want him kept in a puppy pen either for too long.

Puppies at 12 weeks don't need discipline they need gentle training and assurance.

You may perhaps love the pup to bits and you actually do very well with the puppy but your original post frightened us and made it look like you thought it was a object rather than a living creature. Does that make sense :-)

I took my pups everywhere with me when i first brought them home,i carried them around for as long as i could and introduced them to the sights and sounds of the outside world.

I know there is a critical time for socialisation,i thought it was from 6 weeks to 12 weeks,it seems as iff your pup has missed the most important time for socialisation.I hope he's ok when he eventually does get to go outside.

I am very interested in where you obtained your above training tecniques????

I think the socialisation window closes at about 16 weeks. I'm sure John and his g/f have been carrying Cookie out and about everytwhere in the weeks they've had him - otherwise they're going to have their work cut out taking Cookie to get accustomed to everything he's ever likely to see in 4 weeks!

By using puppy pads, all you have trained him to do is to use the pads - he isn't house-trained, nor is he anywhere near house trained unless you plan on him using puppy pads permanently :( Puppy pads are no substitute for the old fashioned way of training a pup by taking it out to the garden frequently and praising if the pup is successful. What socialisation has your pup had ? Have you carried him up and down your road to meet other people ? Sat on a bench in the park and watched other dogs play ? Visited your friends with him etc etc etc

Maybe you have neglected him by, inadvertently, using the wrong training methods ? Have you successfully raised a pup before using these methods ?

Daisy

Hi John,

People are upset at the thought of such a young puppy being disciplined and "dominated" :(  Do you really think a puppy can dominate a person?  Your puppy - any puppy AND adult dog of any breed for that matter - does not think it is a human nor that you are a dog.  It will be perfectly aware of the fact that you and other humans are a totally different species and sadly the poor little thing may just think you're a species of bullies :(

You should train through kindness and positive rewards - there's plenty of help on here providing totally successful methods of all sorts of training issues - perhaps you should read some of the threads.

I'm sure you do not wish to be cruel to your puppy - but you don't seem to know the basic information about how to interact with a puppy and it is alarming that your breeder did not advise - encourage - you to take your puppy out in a secure garden/patio/yard area for toilet training immediately and in addition to take the puppy out in your car and in your arms to places for socialising.

Try not to take offence at the tone of replies - board members are responding in the best interests of the dog which at the end of the day should be advice and experience that is welcomed by you.

Regards Teri

Well put Teri. ;) I had to retype my post a few times because I was extremely upset when I read the OP. However, I figured getting annoyed is not going to help that puppy, it will just anger the OP and he wont come back.

John, we are not saying you do not love your puppy, or are being deliberately cruel, but you do need to rethink your training methods. There are thousands of very experienced dog owners, breeders and trainers on this board. I don't honestly think you will find one who agrees with your treatment, I wont even call it training, of your puppy. Does that not tell you something? Whatever book you have read, tv programme you have watched, it cannot compare to the hundreds of years of combined experience ppl at Champdogs have got. Some ppl have been so stunned that anyone is treating a puppy the way you are they originally though your post was a wind up.

Please rethink you methods, no one on here would think ill of you and everyone would be so willing to help and offer advice.  

you could buy a book called the perfect puppy by gwen bailey

We live in a flat with no garden so we can't let him out.  There's lots of grass areas around our estate and some nice walks where we can take the dog but there's so many other dogs who go around there that we've decided that the best thing to do is just to keep him inside until he's fully vacinated, which will be on Wednesday and we are really excited about it.  We always have our friends round so he's loves meeting new people and Cookie is very socialised, we also took him round to our friends house the other day so he can play with my friend dog Bamby (ChuHuaHua) and they got on very well.

Cookie is a very loving and happy dog, we always playing games with him and he loves it.  everytime we watch TV, he would climb onto our laps and watch TV with us, so hearing comment like we'd better off getting a stuffed toy etc has really hurt us. :(  Cookie, gets really excited easily and the training method we used was the only successful one to calm him, and because it worked, we stuck to it.  I can't see anything wrong with that.

You say that my pup is eating his poo cos he's hungry or because he is bored, but he's been doing that since we got him and since we've used this new training method, he's actually been doing it less.  We tried the play and reward approach, but he just get too excited all the time.

Anyway, I think I've said enough now and if I've offend anyone, I'm sorry.  But hearing some of the comments today is just not on, especially when me, my girlfiriend and the pup have developed a very good relationship throughout the past 4 weeks since we've had him.  Trust me, if we wanted a stuff toy as a dog we would have got one, but Cookie is apart of out family in the household and he will be always treasured, loved and looked after as long as we are still around on this earth.

John please read this, it is the link Digger gave in another thread. I think it may help to explain the difference in your thinking and ours.

http://www.acorndogtraining.co.uk/dominance.htm

HTH :)

Thanks for the link, it is a very interesting read.  I think what's mentioned in the article is of extreme cases.

We always encourage our dog, we are always tring to teach him tricks and when he performs it, we would always praise him and tell him "Good Boy" and pet him.  By doing this, he now has very few accidents and he can now stop barking, sit and lie down.

The only time we use the pack leader method is when he's doesn't do what we tell him the first time round, so we pick him up and tell him that way and that seems to work.  So really, we train Cookie with a mix of methods, the encourage and praise method and a few points from the pack leader method.

One think we dont' do is to praise him with treats and we don't want our pup to be eating to much as he's still got sensitive puppy stomach.  So we just do our praise, verbally and by petting.

>One think we dont' do is to praise him with treats and we don't want our pup to be eating to much as he's still got sensitive puppy stomach.  So we just do our praise, verbally and by petting.

I don't know what you are feeding him John, but if it is small pieces of kibble you can use that for the reward, just cut down his main meals a bit if he has had some of it as treats.

Tiny pieces of frankfurter sausage should not upset him either.

Sandrah, thanks for the advise but I tried giving Cookie one of his dried food as a treat and he got so excited that he thought it was his dinner time.  So now, I just stick to his 3 meals a day and just train him gradually until he gets older, when I can get him on 2 meals a day and feed him treats in between. :)

Hi John

Praise might work great while you have your pup in the house and there are no other distractions, but when you get him outside, you'll soon find praise doesn't really work.  Would your dog rather play with another dog or would he rather come when you call, if all you do when you recall him is say 'good boy' ?  Praise just isn't enough.  You're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't use food to train.

Second, on the whole treats subject again, well your pup is at the age now when you should be introducing a variety of foods to him.  In the same way that babies and toddlers are gradually introduced to different foods when they are weaned, so you should now be introducing different things to your dog, including treats of all descriptions.  Obviously don't do it all at once - introduce a new food every few days.  That way when your dog gets older he will be able to eat anything with no ill effects.  If you just stick to one food now, you're actually going to end up with a dog which has a sensitive stomach forever - because you didn't introduce different food when he was small enough to adjust his body to it and to develop the gut enzymes needed to digest it.

What are you feeding your dog?  A main cause of coprophagia (eating of poo) by dogs is that the food is far too loaded with additives and ingredients which the dog can't digest because it's basically the dog equivalent of junk food.  This comes out the other end and smells to the dog like food still, so he eats it again to get more nutrients out.  If you feed a better and higher quality food, usually the coprophagia stops because the dog can get all the nutrients out the first time round.  If you're based in the UK, try Nature Diet (wet food) or James Wellbeloved (dry) or Burns (also dry).  If you're in the US, there's a food called Innova Evo which is supposed to be excellent.

When I lived in Sweden, I lived in a flat as MOST people there do -it's those well off that live in houses. The way we see it there is that if you live in a flat, you have no CHOICE but to take the puppy out before it is fully vaccinated. I took my puppy out 10 times a day.  Yes it is a risk, but the risk is smaller once the first vaccination has been given (indeed, I NEVER keep a puppy of mine in after the FIRST vacc, as I consider the socialisation to be that important -the risk of getting ill is less than the risk of the pup developing other problems). Most vets these days also seem to use vaccines that are given at 8 weeks and 10 weeks, could you not have got one of those at least so as to have the puppy fully vaccinated 2 weeks sooner?

Marianne

Goldmali,

Because we haven't taken him out yet (not until Wednesday) we always have friends round every weekend to see him and for Cookie to meet.  We also took him to my friends house to play with his dog and they got on fine.  We've taken him to pet shops to buy him food toys etc and he's seen rabbits, ginea pigs and other dogs in the pet shop so I think he should be OK.  We also have a Hamster and Cookie is fine with him but our hamster got a little scared so the hamster now lives in our bedroom.  I think my pup should have no problems as he's been socialised pretty well consider we haven't taken him out, so we did the next best thing and brought friends round, took him to pet shops and let him play with my friends dog etc.

We just didn't want Cookie to get ill, being such a young pup, so we decided that it was best to not let him out and socialise him this way.

Glad to hear it John. :)

>the hamster now lives in our bedroom

Oh my goodness, I remember my sisters hamster, he always woke up at night and decided to do a marathon in his wheel, how do you sleep? :P :D

Hi John,

The reason why so many people replied was because your methods are completely inappropriate for a young pup (or for any animal really). Picking a pup up, staring into his face and talking to him in a firm and aggressive manner is not advisable at all (for reasons already mentioned).

I suggest you read the comments again and take it onboard. You need to seek appropriate help (as mentioned before APDT- perfect puppy - etc) and ensure you are doing the right things for your puppy now, before you create some serious problems in future. You will be thankful of this in future.

Don't forget, there are many, many years of experience in this board and if the reaction has been extreme, then this should tell you something. If you really care for the welfare of your pup, then ensure you are doing all the right things.

All the best,
Patty

John, the problem with posts is that the whole context cannot be explained because we try to keep posts succinct and keep to the main point. Your further posts explain your situation very well and it is obvious to me that you do care for your dog. I am a first time dog owner so I cannot comment on your methods however most people I know follow the alpha method of eating before their dog - I did read recently though that you can feed your dog 2 hours before you eat and they dont then make the association. I have been doing that because we eat rather late and my 13 week old westie cant wait that long. I would also rather he had a chance to digest his food before going to sleep! My dog has just finished his injections tonight so I cannot wait to take him out too!
I know how you feel about the comments, I was chucked off a well known westie site because I dared to discuss crates, for being cruel! However dont give up on champdogs, I have found this to be a very supportive site, people are just well meaning, and concerns dont always come across in the way intended in posts.

Congradulations! Those 3 steps are a good start to being the alpha in the family. Just one thing , never try the alpha roll , it only makes your dog more agressive. Just a tip!

The way i taught my dog to stop barking was to teach him to bark , now he barks on command and never for no reason =D

Many of us now don't think of alpha, etc though :)

I used to, but changed after much thought and reading and debate; break all the rules and still manage to have obedient and happy dogs, so I would never go back to the other way. Apart from the fact that we now know alphas don't always eat first etc after all, as used to be thought.

Best wishes
Lindsay
x

You are right Lindsay my GSD bitch who is very definitely in charge of the dogs here after me & who has never had any puppies just allowed my new puppy to have first go at her evening meal-she used to do that when the cavaliers were puppies as well

I have been so busy puppy watching that I have just realised I haven't had any tea !!!

Your first post had me in tears thinking poor little mite.
I have a 7 week old Rottie x GSD and i carry that out in my arms daily to socialize it, go and sit outside Tesco on a bench very often (she is very heavy already)
I take her sometimes to the horsefield with me so she gets used to the car and because there are no other dogs there she can play in the fields for a short time and meet the ponies.
I done the same with my Jack Russell who is now 6 months old, only I was able to carry him further being lighter, so he came for more walks in my arms.
Just because they havn't had jabs doesn't mean they have to be confined to the house,   Get them out and about seeing different sights and sounds so they are not terrified when you suddenly put this strange collar and lead on and drag them down the road with terrifying things they have never seen or heard before.  makes it all simpler in the end while giving young pup some enjoyment too.

Bev

Before my pup had had all his injections I put him in my daughters old puchchair and took him for walks in that (yes I did get some funny looks but who cares)

Sit at a bus stop and let him watch the world go by from the security of your lap ( my pup knew his way home from his first walk because he had been down that way so many times in my arms or in the pushchair) Now nothing fazes him out on walks

Hi John

I gather you have read a couple of books that got good publicity job done on them!  In reality a lot of  people find that most of what has been said does not work.

In packs, the leader does not ALWAYS eat before the rest, puppies get prime pickings because if they are to survive they have to be fit.  In the wild the adults bring  food back to the den by part eating it and then they regurgitate it for the pups when they get back.  The pups don't know the adults may have actually eaten at the kill before they return with food for them so what message do pups get from this?  Answer, that adult give up their food for pups.  Quite the reverse of what you suggest.

With regard to your pup eating its own poo, a lot of dogs do this and there are several reasons put foward as to why.

1.  Pups see their mothers 'cleaning up' after pups and copy the behaviour.
2.  They are hungry and if fed a mostly cereal based diet, what comes out is just as 'good' (undigested) as what goes in so they eat it.
3.  The dog is confined to a small space with nothing to do for long periods of time (kennelled or crated) so eats its own poo out of boredom
4.  The dog has been 'told off' by humans that are too anxious about toilet training their pup and rather than be discovered and punished for doing what comes naturally the pup or dog eats the evidence.

There's probably more but you could take your pick as to which may apply.

Your pup is just a baby and there are other, more positive, ways to gain your dogs respect than those you outlined in your post. 

Yesterday, I started training my dog with treats (his Hills Dried puppy food) and he now comes to me when I call him and I've also tought him to sit now.  Previously, he only knows how to lie down and now he knows sit. :)

I'm gunna take him out tonight as he's now fully vacinated.  I'm gunna take some of his dried food bits with me so I can train him whilst he's out and about.  How long shall I walk with him for as he's still a pup and don't want to over exercise him?

Hi John, my vet recommended that i wait 2 weeks after my pups last injection before taking him out for a walk. I know it is up to the individual though. :-) I still took my pup out all the time, we carried him!!! Good luck with ur new pup! ;-)

Hi John

the general rule of thumb is 5 minutes for each month of age so 10-15 minutes (total per day) but being honest it's often best to walk them for a few minutes to a place you can sit on a bench or wall and let him watch the world go by for 20 - 30 minutes each time you go out with him :)   He has to get used to normal day to day sights, sounds, smells, people and other dogs and his being able to view these things up calmly and quietly with you as much as possible over the next few weeks is far more important than anything else.  Young pups really don't need exercise as such - what they get through playing in the house and garden is usually sufficient from an exercise point of view :P

HTH, good luck, Teri :) 

Thanks.  I'll take him out for a short walk round the estate tonight and I might take him to the park in the weekend.

I think it would be best if you take him out for at least one short walk every day - there's not much time left in the 'socialisation window' for you to cram in all the experiences he needs.

Just to add to the good advice already on here..

Stop the picking up to 'punish' -- what happens when hei s older, scared and a child picks him up, or someone he doesnt know like a vet. If he is nervous, if you have taught him that being picked up is a bad thing (which this method will do) he might well bite that person.

Secondly, treats is good, try using something more interesting than his (in my opinion overpriced rubbish) food, use tiny bits of cheese, ham, hotdog sausage etc. All very smelly and much more rewarding than boring old normal food.

Get him out and socialising. Instead of this 'alpha pack leader' rubbish, treat him in a kind firm way, a way taht means you EARN his respect and continue the consistancy you already have.

Em