Hi All,

Some of you will already be aware that we have at last bought Kiera home - we've had her for one week tomorrow.

She's an angel during the day, I've used the 'treat' method to encourage her to eliminate outdoors and she is pretty much clean.  She only has accidents when I'm not paying attention.

I have a couple of questions.  1.  What should I do when I see her doing it in the house allbeit by accident?  I've tried making a loud Ahhhhhhh and then take her outside, but once she's started she can't stop....

2.  How to get her to go on paper at night - she goes everywhere but, we've tried the 'puppy pads' - utterly useless other than for chewing!!!! LOL

3. I know you are going to advise shutting her in her crate - this doesn't work, she gets very distressed and pees and poos in there and howls like a banshee!!  We've also tried leaving the door of the crate open and fencing off an area of the kitchen and covering it with paper - she still howls (for hours and hours).  She hates being confined, if we let her have the run of the kitchen she goes thorugh the night and I just have to do some cleaning up ASAP in the morning.  She is only a nine week old lab and I know she won't have control of her bladder for a few weeks and I can't shut her in the crate to pee on herself it just isn't right.

Am I doing the right thing by letting her have the run of the kitchen at night?  we are gradually reintroducing the crate by throwing treats in adn she will cleep in there as long as the door is open - is this gentle approach right?

Thanks for helping!
Nicky x

Robbie is just 9 weeks aswell and the first couple of nights were bad with howling then we put our older dog in kitchen with him bailey was not amused as he normally sleeps under my bed which is where he makes for the minute his eyes open as he doesn't like to be active until 10-11am very lazy longer if raining. Robbie is great at night but a nightmare during the day for toileting but early days i too am curious what age you can crate them overnight. The reason i am asking is we are going away for a couple of days and the 2 dogs are going to my father-in-laws robbie will be 15 weeks by then but at least if he was crated overnight i won't have furniture to replace when i return although i have said to limit him to conservatory which leads to enclosed garden.

1: don't let her do it in the house to start with! I know it sounds silly :) but seriously, watch her like a hawk, and when you see her start to think about it - circling, sniffing etc - whisk her outside sharpish and shower her with praise when she goes.  I always found mine couldn't stop when they've started - I did read an article once that said tp push them on the bum (push, not smack)  and say "hey!" in a loud voice, not harsh tho - it's supposed to surprise them into stopping and give you a chance to get them outside.  I don't know how effective it is though, having not tried it myself - I found it after mine were housetrained!

2: Personally, I'd egt up in the night to take her out.  If you're taking her out in the day and not allowing accidents indoors, but then you let her go indoors at night on paper, you'll be confusing her no end - she's learning she can go indoors at some times but not others.  Also you might find her going on paper you don't want her to go on :D With mine I got up every couple of hours for the first couple of weeks, then extended the time until they were fine all night.  You'll be tired, but it's just like having a baby of any species - human included - you do make sacrifices at the start.

3: Other people will have different opinions on this one.  i am a big crate fan and do suggest using them, but I also know it doesn't work for everyone - my youngest, Opi, was just like yours, and in the end I had to admit defeat and leave her loose at night.  but, I did use the method you mentioned of acclimating her to the crate for the daytime so I could leave her in safety.  If you can get her used to going in for little periods (30 seconds here, a minute there, building it up) she should be okay soon.  As long as there's nothing in the kitchen that could harm her - objects she could swallow, dangerous chemicals she could open a door and munch on - I think she'll be okay in the kitchen at night.

Good luck, she sounds gorgeous :D

Ours had to be gently pushed into the crate at first, though they didn't complain once in. But we gave them a treat when we had shut the door on them, and now we have trouble setting the crate up because the dogs are trying to get in it at the same time!!

These problems are very easily solved. First of all is the crate you have JUST large enough that he can turn around and stand up but not walk around in? If not then get a divider and put it in to make the space smaller.

A puppy will not deliberately pee in its den. As for the crying in the crate, IGNORE IT! He is trying to get your attention and you are giving in, let him cry his eyes out you will have to bare with it for the first couple of nights.Throw a treat in once he's in there and give him comfort for a minute or 2 then leave him. What time do you put him in?

I suggest you take out his water 2-3 hours before crating him so you know he's completely empty (this may fix the wetting the crate issue. My rules are no food, water or snacks after 6 and then bed at 9 until 6 in the morning. Do not leave water in the crate either.

Good luck!

^ sorry i also forgot to say , if he is having alot of problems still holding it in at night and you see him peeing more then usual get him checked for a UTI. I also forgot to say that i, myself think that putting newspaper or puppy pads down just teach your dog to pee in the house which will make house training much harder. If you have enough time during the day to take him out each hour then at night he should only have to go once or none at all if you control his drinking, you may think she is thirsty during the night but trust me, she isn't. Good luck again!

I am lucky enough to have had a puppy who was great with the crate from the beginning but i do sympathise with anyone who has a young puppy and teaching them the rules. It is so hard to ignore a crying unhappy puppy but it sure is worth it in the end. Dont go to the puppy when it crys, even if it only stops crying for a moment make your approach then just to reassure it your there and walk away again. You do have to prepare yourself for some sleepless nights and early wake up calls. Go back to basics, any time the pup has food or a treat, give it in the crate leaving the door open,You cannot expect a 9 week old pup to hold it in all night, the bladder simply isnt strong enough yet, i personally wouldnt deny a puppy of 9 weeks any water any time of night or day, prehaps in doing so your pup could cry as its thirsty, 9 weeks is a little young to expect dry nights unless your prepared to stay up all night with them. Getting up regulary through the night is the only answer for speedy potty trained puppies. If the pads you are using arent working try rubbing a little of pups urine on the pad first, usually they will pee where there scent is once they realise. If you catch your pup peeing before its too late dont say anything and pick him up and take him to the correct place and wait, you could be waiting a while but when he does use the word you want for him to pee or be quick and praise him good.
It is a long process but given time and patience they do learn the rules and will impress you.
Good luck, have fun with your pup as it doesnt last forever.
Jodi xxx

I can't agree with Mannymax's advice I'm afraid - your puppy is only 9 weeks old - would you expect a 6 month old baby to be dry all night?  Would you withhold food and most importantly fluids just to avoid a wet nappy?  Fluids are ESSENTIAL for normal bodily processes and witholding them may cause long term damage....

A puppy needs to learn that the crate is for nice things as well as those it sees as not so nice, so feed him in the crate, encourage him to play with his toys in the crate, don't shut the door for the first few times he's in there, then only shut it when he's happily eating - most pups will sleep after eating, so he should quickly settle down to sleep in a crate with the door closed and therefore discover it's not such a bad thing after all.  Covering the crate will help him feel more secure as well

Like babies do not grow into 5 year olds who have to wear nappies to school, your puppy will develop to stay dry at night, but he'll do it in his own time, and witholding water is not the way to acheive it.......

Thanks Digger - I thought that was about right, don't worry I wouldn't dream of withholding water - she drinks like a fish - and what goes in......

The main problem is the confinement.  We have a huge kitchen and Kiera wees and poos everywhere during the night.  Everytime we try and fence off an area, by morning she's found a way through - she's pretty damned determined!!! LOL.  I figure we should just carry on reinforcing the 'reward' training, she's more or less clean during the day anyway.  Trouble is now she's developed the runs......It's hard work owning a puppy, harder than I had anticipated, but the rewards are worth it!  I guess its soggy rice and chicken for tea then..............and I'll try not to think about what I might find in the morning!!!!!!

Cheers
Nicky

Have you tried feeding in the crate?this worked for us and we now leave the water bowl in there pee pee pads one end bedding the other not that she pees or poos in there as iget up twice in the night to take her out for that but its there just in case try treating her when she/he goes in there and shut the dog in for 5 mins while your in the room then gradually increase the time and leave the room for a certain length of time it does work honest:)

Digger , i did not mean take his water away when he wets the floor. This is the schedule i have my puppy on and he is 100% happy and healthy. Taking a puppys water out 2-3 hours before bedtime does not strip puppys of essential fluids if they have been drinking all day. My dog usually drinks after eating or playing and when they are in the crate or getting ready to be in it they shouldn't be burning any energy sleeping. A puppy will not get thirsty in it's crate during the night if it has had water during the day.

I will say again, trust me, your puppy will NOT be thirsty during the night if you have givin him suffiecient water during the day. If you continue to give him acess to water all night then you will have to deal with taking the dog out at 2 in the morning, or deal with accidents during the night.

I disagree, that means 10-12 hours without water which is far too long for a small animal.  I have never withheld water and it has never inhibited them progressing to night time dryness.

So Manny max, do you NEVER get up in the night and need a drink of water?.......

Puppies can be housetrained both day and night without using crates - I know this because mine have never been crated! At night they sleep in a room with a moppable floor, on which I put newspaper for ease of cleaning up in the morning - to start with, all over the floor - before long you'll see which area she tends to use (generally nearest the door) then you can limit it to that area. This is lifted as soon as I get up, and only put down again when I have to go out. They always have access to water - it makes no difference to the speed of housetraining. I find that a good game in the evening, a light snack and out to the garden to wee/poo immediately before bed makes the pup tired and comfortable enough to sleep soundly.
:)

I find that mine drink during the night. Often wake and here them slurping away. They have water in two rooms downstairs plus one upstairs. I'd never restrict water

Anne

I never knew dogs were considered "small animals" like guinea pigs or hamsters but, whatever. My dogs don't drink at night because they are in their crate, appropriate crate training means no water in the crate or you WILL have accidents. It's your choice whether you want to restrict water at night because frankly i want sleep too, i don't want to clean up 5 puddles of pee in the morning just because i was scared my puppy would "be to thirsty" when i know he has drank 5-6 cups of water during the day. Their mouths don't get try and dehydrated for no reason , it is either when they are playing or eating/treats.

I only allow free drinking during the night when my dogs hit 2 years of age and i give them free run of the house and when they are 100% reliable with house training.

I don't think the term 'small animal' is equating puppies with GP's or rabbits, but IMHO NO animal should be without water for any length of period at all.  Crate training does NOT mean no water in the crate, it means using the dogs natural desire not to soil it's sleeping space, but you also have to understand that the ability to hold the desire to urinate comes with age, and no amount of witholding water will alter the speed at which this ability is aquired.  The best way of crate training is to allow the puppy out at regular intervals to avoid forcing it to soil the bedding area.

Yes, vets classify dogs and cats as 'small animals' when it comes to describing the practice. The 'large animal' vets will specialise in cattle, horses etc. Basically, 'small animals' are pet ones.

Incidentally, biologically if you feel thirst then you have started dehydrating. For optimum health you should have a drink before you feel thirsty.

>I never knew dogs were considered "small animals" like guinea pigs or hamsters but, whatever

Yes, very definitely classed as small animals!

>It's your choice whether you want to restrict water at night because frankly i want sleep too, i don't want to clean up 5 puddles of pee in the morning just because i was scared my puppy would "be to thirsty" when i know he has drank 5-6 cups of water during the day.

Mannynmax, even if you could find anyone to agree with this foolhardy method of instigating "dry" overnight, I doubt that they'd boast about it never mind recommend it :(  Anyone who puts their own sleep, comfort, household chores before the welfare of a puppy shouldn't have one - simple.  The argument of how much water is drunk through the course of the day doesn't over rule the fact that water should be available 24/7.  Apart from the fact that it's highly inadvisable and inappropriate under normal circumstances, what if the dog has a severe gastric upset overnight?  Even an older dog could quickly need hydration - particularly in the warm and humid weather we've currently been suffering - and a young puppy could die in the timescale your advocating

Teri

You do your thing , i will do mine. I think my 3 goldens including 1 puppy are fine by my rules. Only one of them get free run of the house and he is 12 1/2 years old. He does get water 24/7 because he is 100% reliable to be left alone without my supervision and 100% reliable with controlling his bladder. Any experienced crate user will tell you no water IN the crate overnight, do whatever you wish but Nicky asked for some advise and i gave her what she asked for. I take very good care of my dogs and noone can tell me different.

My oldest was a 16yo border collie i had about 7 years ago before he past , he was healthy and happy till the day i had to put him down, he had his water taken away 8 at night because sometimes he would get lonely and drink all his water when i wasn't watching. Lonely puppys will do anything for attention. I am not saying all dogs can turn into obsessive water drinkers when unsupervised but i would not risk this when i know my dogs are not thirsty, they SLEEP through the night so WHY would i put down water for a puppy who isn't even thirsty? Stomach bloat can be fatal. Unless you do not leave water down during the day then your puppy will not be thirsty during the night, controlled water drinking leads to more reliably housetrained dogs. If you think your little puppy is thirsty at night then put down some water , take them out at midnight then again at 2am then at 4am. People just don't have this kind of schedule, how can we make money to pay for vet bills , toys , food and treats for our dogs if we cannot get any sleep?

Some of you are also telling me it is not OK to control your puppys water intake if he is frequently peeing in the house and at night, but this is your choice.

>You do your thing , i will do mine

No danger of me doing yours, for sure ;)

>Any experienced crate user will tell you no water IN the crate overnight

Really :rolleyes:  Can't think of any on here and there are plenty of us - I've been using crates appropriately and with internal water bowls for years!

Big deal, at 12 1/2 years ONE of yours gets free run of the house - plenty of CD members have dogs who get free run of the house immediately on achieving full bladder and bowel control - so a few months old.  But then we housetrain our pups and that includes them having ongoing access to water - not dry so unable to pee :(   Perhaps you'd do well to take up on some of the sound advice proferred on the board so that you can drag your own training methods out of the dark ages and actually enjoy have a dog that is trained kindly, correctly and thoroughly as opposed to dry overnight through deprivation.

No offence , but you must be really stubborn to still think that controlling your dogs water intake is abusive. Dogs only need about 6-8 cups of water daily not 15 cups.

No, dogs needs water when they feel like drinking - hence if there is none available at that time that is neglect on the part of the owner.

If someone sat you down, offered you X amount cups of fluid but said you could only have them during a certain period and then, regardless of how you felt, what the temperature was, whether you'd been sick, had the runs, etc etc etc it was tough luck, you could have no more for 8-10 hours I'll bet you'd have plenty to say about it!

>Dogs only need about 6-8 cups of water daily not 15 cups.

:rolleyes: Would that be a chihuahua or a great dane?

Honestly, it's ludicrous to make hard and fast rules about quantities like that! The quantity of liquid needed depends on the temperature (both meteorological and biological), the humidity, the activity level, age, the health (some breeds are prone to urinary problems and therefore need plenty of fluid to keep the tract flushed), and the general make-up of the individual. The amount will needed will vary from dog to dog and from day to day. That's why it's safer and more humane (people have been prosecuted for withholding water as you describe) for water to be available 24/7.

Any animal needs water when it wants a drink. Withholding that for any reason as trivial as an owner wanting a lie-in is definitely neglect.

Better put JG! or Put Better :rolleyes:  (OK, I'm watching BBLB in between posts)

Teri ;)

*

Well put Teri.

It's taken you 12½ years to get a dog 100% housetrained!

I'll take that as confirmation that your method isn't nearly as effective as other people's! Mine have been 100% housetrained by 5 months at the latest - usually younger.

Lol , do you really think i am that moronic? It did NOT take me 12 1/2 years to train my first golden , he was pee free since 6 months of age. My rule is that my dogs don't get full run of the house without me being awake and active until they are 2 years of age, regardless of their behaviour. This means i set up baby gates and limit there acess to the house , slowly letting them into each room with my supervision so they realize that the whole house is there den, which makes them less prone to pee in their own den.

If you enjoy making life harder for yourself, feel free! :) It's not a method to be recommended though.

Noone here has proved that my method is inhumane or neglecting, the point of the advice was to help nicky's puppy with wetting at night. Seems like all of you are saying i beat my dogs with baseball bats or something. Everyone has different advice , why would you flame my ideas calling them inhumane if they are proven not to be?

You make no sense , your saying that i take away my dogs water for an hour during the day then say you can have this back in an hour wheter your thirsty or not? My dogs are HAPPY every night to go into their crate , they know they wont have water until morning and they are fine with it. I never take away water during the day , they have a 50 gallon bucket that is refilled whenever possible.

>Noone here has proved that my method is inhumane or neglecting,
>why would you flame my ideas calling them inhumane if they are proven not to be?

No, nobody here needs to, because the RSPCA have proved it in court several times and people have been banned from keeping animals.

Someone should really call animal control and tell them i've been depriving my dogs of water!

That is so funny Teri , how you make it seem like i abuse my dogs and neglect them. Proving that you are correct does not mean putting down other owners, you are indirectly telling me that my dogs should be taken away. It's really not funny.

>Someone should really call animal control and tell them i've been depriving my dogs of water!

Mmm, perhaps so.

I'd be more than happy to report you!

You have the audacity to contribute to a board which is designed to make the provision and availability of information on kind and appropriate animal husbandry, health, training etc available to a wider audience and yet you are promoting a reprehensible method of ensuring that a dog does not soil your precious home overnight.

>That is so funny Teri , how you make it seem like i abuse my dogs and neglect them. Proving that you are correct does not mean putting down other owners, you are indirectly telling me that my dogs should be taken away. It's really not funny

It's not intended to be funny - there is nothing humorous about what you have described as ideal methods either on this thread re. provision of water or elsewhere re. a behavioural issue. 

>Noone here has proved that my method is inhumane or neglecting

You'll probably find numerous of professional bodies in animal welfare have already covered that on our behalf :rolleyes:

>Everyone has different advice , why would you flame my ideas calling them inhumane if they are proven not to be?

Proven by who   Your own experience?  In that to date, thank God, none of your dogs have died as a result of your actions?

>I never take away water during the day , they have a 50 gallon bucket that is refilled whenever possible

Big bucket!  Can the puppy reach it?  If so, aren't you concerned it may drown in it?

If they need that amount of water during the day for three, is it not reasonable to expect they are particularly thirsty   In which case at even more risk being deprived throughout the night? 

TIP:  when digging a hole that just gets deeper and deeper it is wise to back off ;)

Why are you so rude? Big bucket, my puppy drowning? What's wrong with you?

I thought this was a friendly forum but i guess not , i try to offer advice but get flamed. I have not flamed you as an owner so why do you constantly try to tell me that i am not fit to own dogs?

It's only your advice that's been questioned, Manny, because it's potentially very dangerous - on both this and other threads ...

Withholding water will mean the kidneys take more fluid from the bloodstream to be able to function. This, in a small animal, can very quickly cause serious damage to the body.

>Why are you so rude? Big bucket, my puppy drowning? What's wrong with you?

You said your dogs have access to a 50 gallon bucket of water   That's a big bucket; you have GR; perhaps too tall for puppy to reach or if it can then a danger to it   so what's your issue? 

I don't particularly care if you think I'm rude - although I'd prefer that you didn't.   At the end of the day I'm passionate - as are other members - about animals not being neglected and if that on occasion means calling a spade a spade I'll do it. 

As it happens I'd define neglect as when an owner fails through lack of knowledge or ability to provide sufficient care for the health (mental and physical) and wellbeing of their animal(s).  In your case it is IMO more a case of cruelty because despite sound information being available to you, your greater concern is for your flooring remaining dry and your sleep being uninterrupted

mannynmax, we are talking about puppies here barely more than 2 months old, in just about any breed they are going to be small with a small blood volume and the need to replace fluids frequently, every book on animal husbandry I have ever read stesses the need for readily available fluid for animals of low blood volume.  It is pointless to expect withholding water to prevent them peeing in the night anyway as the kidneys will keep producing urine and filling the bladder until dehydration reaches the point of a serious drop in blood pressure, not something anyone should aim for really.

Isabel , Nickyxh did not state how old her puppy was. If this puppy is like a month old then it shouldn't even have been taken from its mother yet in the first place. I use my method on puppys 3 months or older and i dont even start house training till 3 months.

Socialization is much more important if her puppy is only 2 months old, she shouldn't be worrying so much about house training if this is the case.

>If this puppy is like a month old

Where do you get that idea? Of course it isn't that young!

>Socialization is much more important if her puppy is only 2 months old, she shouldn't be worrying so much about house training

Housetraining starts as soon as you get the puppy home. By three months of age they should be well on the way to being trained. Without the need to withhold water!!!
:)

Jeanie , it is not only my advice that is being questioned. Teri keeps mentioning that i am not fit to be a dog owner and how she is wondering that my dogs have not DIED because of me. She even asked if my bucket was to big that my puppy would drown? What kind of statement is that. Your basically saying you want my dogs to die and not be with me which is extremelly rude but everyone keeps taking your side? Friendly forum of course!

>She even asked if my bucket was to big that my puppy would drown?

You must admit a 50-gallon bucket is vast! I didn't know they made them as large as that - it must be the size of a small swimming-pool - very dangerous for young puppies to drink from. A bowl containing a couple of pints is far safer.

>Your basically saying you want my dogs to die

Actually, we're saying the exact opposite - we don't want your dogs to die or become ill - nor anyone else's.

>Your basically saying you want my dogs to die

No, very much the opposite!

Nickyyxh:-

>we have at last bought Kiera home - we've had her for one week tomorrow

bailey:-

>Robbie is just 9 weeks aswell

Well call me Sherlock Holmes but that is how it sounds to me.
I start house training my litters from about 5 weeks old and I see not reason for these posters not to get all hands to the pump during the day from the minute they get their pups home but I would not expect any puppy to be deprived of water during the night.  The way I see it you can use either of two methods at night, either get up and let them out regularly or leave them on an easy clean surface, ignore all soiling and set to it again in the morning, either way works perfectly well as far as I can see and by using the ignore anything that happens at night method, all my pups have been daytime sorted in about 10 days with most dry at night anything from as young as 12 weeks with lashings of water available.
Of course you are entitled to state your opinion Mannynmax but I do hope these posters, and others in the same position, will notice that you hold a very maverick view against a much bigger consensus any poster still in any doubts I would urge to speak to their vet about the subject of withholding water for 10/11 hours in a day.

kay, then im out. Nicky can get some good advice from you lovely people.

Lastly, i am a caring owner devoted to my dogs regardless of what you all think. Dogs are my life , my dogs love me and i love them.

Noone will tell me different :) bye.

The saddest thing Mannymax is that you suggest a lonely puppy will do anything for attention. I can't believe i am reading this in the context of giving pups water, or not :(

Lindsay
x

And lets not forget that a dog that habitually drinks to excess is actually probably exhibiting a stress releaving behaviour........