I have come back in from a walk with my two dogs and i am soooo angry. I was minding my own business walking up a very wide path with grass either side when a dog off lead appeared from around the corner ahead. My 2 were on their leads (about 2m in length) as there is a road nearby. Well the owners looked at me then my dogs and did nothing to get their dog back. Bengi has been attacked several times all when he has been on lead so he was barking like mad warning this other dog off, but it still came over to us. I sat bengi down so i could shorten the leads and walk away but i couldnt do it in time and my other dog buster was desperate to say hello so trying to pull me in the dogs direction. I trying to tell buster to leave, loud enough for them to hear, The owners were still about 2-3 metres away and yet they still did nothing and actually looked at me like i was a raving lunatic Anyway i was trying to keep bengi away as i know he could bite the other dog if it didnt back off which it didnt and buster decided it would be fun to wrap his lead around my legs trying to say hello - well it seemed that way :p
Now this dog got closer and bengi was now starting to growl and the owners still did nothing and it started to get out of hand and i put bengi between my legs, dragged buster around and trying to push the other dog away with my leg, my leads have become really tangled and bengi's lead some how manages to unclip so i just manage to grab his coller in time and all at the same time and the owners still did nothing Then they walked a few yards away stop and check their dog and walked off never saying a word at all. Luckily bengi is not physically hurt but the emotional scars will be vey hard to heal.
Rant over i just had to get it off my chest.

Oh dear, some people just don't understand Sonny.

I hope your walk tomorrow is better :D

Sonny,

If your dog has issues with other dogs getting too close and you are also walking more than one dog surely it would be better to shorten the leads quietly (gradually) as the other dog approaches, that way you will have more control over your own dogs and their leads ;)  Sadly there are always going to be irresponsible people about, unless they've also had problems being attacked they just don't seem to understand ;)

sorry to hear this hope your dogs are ok. this happend to me not so long ago only i am in a wheelchair we was in the park walking along you know what i mean and this STB come out of know where and ran straight for my dog, i could see what was going to happen and i could see the owner not so far away and he did not even shout his dog back the STB hit my dog so hard it nocked me out of my chair. only i was lucky i have bullmastiffs so my bitch just picked the STB up and flung it six foot up in the air well the bloody owner shouted then didnt he.that man could have pervented what happened that day but because his dog got hurt i was to blame.dont get me wrong my bitch did not fight she just flung the dog and that was it she is very friendly

Thankyou for your replies.
I was really angry last night, not at the dog but at the owners for not even trying to get their dog back,
Dill, my dog has issues with dogs he doesnt know. He is not an aggressive dog but he will lash out if his space is invaded. His lead was already short i was trying to get buster to heal as he does like to pull like a train at times and this unfoutantly was one of them. Ironically we were in the process of training buster not to pull ahead, think i need to practice some more :p But this dog yesterday wouldnt take any notice of my dogs warning ie growling and actually came nose to nose, thats when it got out of hand :( I dont think the other dog was agressive but it decided to fight when it did get too close and it was only the fact that i put mysef between him and my dogs to try and stop it he eventually backed off and went to his owners who at this time had passed us and were several feet away
Bengi seems fine at the moment he was a little shocked at my reaction of protecting him so hopefully he will be ok.

I have the same problem with one of mine. It happened the other day, this cute little Staffy pup was so desperate to say hello and was jumping all over my dogs. One of them can be funny so I had hold of his collar. The pup was still jumping over the others and the owner was calling him back but he wasn't going anywhere. In the end I put my hand around my dogs mouth and shouted, 'He's going to get bitten!' The owner came running and apologised and collected her pup who was by now trying to land on my unhappy dogs head and obviously not understanding why he wouldn't play. Bless. It wasn't the pups fault and I would have felt terrible if he had been bitten, which isn't likely but I didn't want to risk it.

Next time, try shouting at the dog to go away, they often will do what a human says, even if they ignore, or don't understand, what the other dog is telling them. Then call the owner to remove their dog, saying it is in danger of being bitten. They may think it amusing to see you tie yourself in knots and making so much effort to control your dogs but if they think theirs are in danger they usually do something about it.

Just remember, if yours in under control, i.e. you have hold of it's lead or collar, and the other dog gets bitten it is the other owners fault for not having control of theirs. :)

>Just remember, if yours in under control, i.e. you have hold of it's lead or collar, and the other dog gets bitten it is the other owners fault for not having control of theirs.  

I wouldn't agree that is strictly true, if you choose to walk your 'iffy' dog in a public place where you are going to meet other dogs off the lead, then unless your dog is muzzled you have not got control of it's actions.

Unfortunately the average pet owner doesn't know how to approach a problem when it arises.  If they carried on briskly walking past you half the problems wouldn't occur.  But no, what do they do, stand a watch the situation escalating making fruitless attempts to get their dog back.  

I have even had one hide in the woods with his little dog and shout at me when my dog was barking like mad at him.  I gave my dog a biscuit and praised him, told the man I would encourage my dog to warn me if there was a man hiding in the woods.

A lot of dogs don't like their space invaded, but it is usually the owners that make the situation ten times worse.

JMO Sandra

We will have to agree to diagree on that then Sandra. My dog is not iffy as such, just suffers from a bit of fear aggression. He can go around an agility or obedience show ground without any problems but in the park, if another dog lands in his face he will bark/growl. My dogs are not allowed to invade other dogs space, they will all walk past other dogs without even looking at them, because they have been trained to. I do understand that other ppl do not have this sort of control which is why I will hold onto him as another dog passes but if other ppl are too stupid to take this as a sign to call their dogs back, or more accurately do not have enough control (in which case IMO they are the ones who should avoid public places) to keep their dog away from mine then yes, I will blame them.

My dogs have the right to be exercised in a public place, they are under control at all times, are not allowed off lead until they have a v. reliable down at any distance. They also have the right to their own space and not to be harassed by other dogs. He does not need to be muzzled for me to be in control of his actions, I have total control of his actions as I have hold of him.

Look at it this way. A child, for whatever reasons, has violent tendancies. He is allowed to play on the swings. When another child comes into the park his mum puts reins on him/holds his hand. The other child still approaches and the child shouts at him. The mother calls his parent to take him away as her child may hurt him. The parent ignores it, the other child gets closer, jumping around him until the child finally has had enough and lashes out. Who is to blame? Not the children certainly. If your theory is correct, we will have to blame the mother of the aggressive child. He should be isolated from society because he may hurt another child. If my theory is correct it is the parent of the other child for not keeping him under closer supervision and, as is her responsiblity as his main carer, out of danger. :)

Nor sure about your analogy :)  If a child was violent towards other perfectly sociable children I would expect the parents to be doing everything in their power to remedy this perhaps with professional help.  What if it was a deaf child or a child with learning difficulties approaching or its mother was not paying close attention assuming the child in the company of another adult would be suitable restrained.  In the situation you describe if I was the parent I would pick the my child up, hold onto it arms or whatever else was necessary to prevent it hurting the other child.  Similarly if I know my dog is likely to snap at another perfectly friendly, but poorly controlled, dog I would feel I would need to have it muzzled in public places.  The fact is in a perfect world everyone would exercise good distance control over there dogs and remove them from a suitation if asked to do so but it ain't going to happen is it :) so we all have to do what we see as necessary to prevent any innocent, albeit foolish, dog from getting hurt.

LOL Isabel I was using it as an example, I'm not talking Pyschopath Junior here, just the average run of the mill child who uses their fists a little too readily. No need for a full body restraint as yet. :D

I have been out with doggy friends this afternoon playing 10 collie V 5 humans football. (Dogs won :p) We discussed this and all said they thought the out of control dog owner would be at fault. Unless a dog is actively aggressive and likely to bite it does not need to be muzzled. As long as it is under control it is ok. I wont change my mind on this, as far as myself, my friends and the law is concerned, as long as your dog is under control and can't actually attack anyone it is fine. Of course if it likely to actually bite a human I would have it muzzled. I have just got back from an agility display and was walking my 3 around afterwards. I lost count of how many children came over and fussed the dogs without checking first. In that case there would be no choice.

<<waves at colliesrus>>

According to the DDA it is an offence to allow a dog to be dangerously out of control in a public place. Your dog cannot be classed as being out of control if it is on a lead. If you allow your dog to charge up to strange dogs and greet them when they are on a lead and they get bitten, that is your fault not the fault of the other owner.

>If you allow your dog to charge up to strange dogs and greet them when they are on a lead and they get bitten, that is your fault not the fault of the other owner

I agree completely :-)

So do I!

<<<waves back at colliemad>>>

That's part of the reason why i make a point of calling my dogs to me every single time I see a dog approaching - whether it's on or off leash.  That, and because I have no way of knowing what the other dog will be like - how the other owner can be so blase about letting their dog run up to strange dogs is beyond me, there really is no way to tell the temperament, and personally I'd rather not risk my own dogs' safety to find out!!

Owning a breed that naturally ranges ahead I expect my dogs to be welle enough rounded and socialised to cope with any situati0n that arose with other dogs.  They very quickly learn doggie etiquete at training classes, and then know when their welcome or not when off lead.

My old lady gets very cross if I call her back for no apparent reason and gives me quite a scolding.  I suppose at 13 1/2 making ehr put in extra mileage I can see her point. :D

I'm sorry I can't see how the other people are to blame? Mabe I have read this wrong and missed some key points?  You have the problem dog, did you ever think to ask the other owners if they could call back your dog.  I unfortantly got into a similar position as you a while back, my dog does not like other dogs, esecpillay when he is on lead.  This over dog came trotting up to him, I just said to the owner "sorry my dog doesn't like other dogs" and he caught up with his dog.  His dog was only trying to be friendly, I had the problem dog.  At no point did I blame the owner of the other dog for not having his dog under control.  My dog and myself would have been the one's in trouble had anything happend.  I'm sorry, you have a problem dog, you know you have a problem dog, don't expect the average pet dog owner to know and normally they can't read a dogs signals.

In future ask the owners of other dogs nicly if they could call they're dog away.  If you are nice and polite they shouldn't have a problem.

BTW I'm not personally attacking you by this or anything.  And feel free to correct me if I am wrong in my matter.

Hi ice queen, I'm afraid i actually panicked and forgot all logic except to protect my dogs. Normally i would of stepped aside and waited for them to pass then carry on. IMO the area is not safe for dogs to be off lead as there are 2 roads close by. This is actually a short cut to connect these roads and is not closed in by fences. But with their dog off lead i couldnt do this as he followed my moves. The dogs owners were too far away to even shout at first and they let their dog circle us and get too close to us. I know i should of said something to them but i was too busy trying to tell my dogs to leave the other dog alone it never crossed my mind.
I know some people will dissagree with me but i think that you should never let an off lead dog approach a strange dog on a lead, Now if all dogs are off lead that thats different as you are taking that chance with your dogs being off lead. I always recall my dogs when i see another dog approaching us. Bengi however is on a flexi but he still gets recalled to my side. The owners could clearly see that i was not impressed with the situation and that i was being tangled up and they actually seemed to enjoy this. Once it was all over they checked their dog and he was ok. But what if he wasnt, It wouldnt be my fault if he had of got bitten as they didnt do anything to help. They never even attempted to recall their dog
Yes i have a problem dog, but its not my problem other people cannot or will not control theirs.

I know it is a shame some people don't control theres.  and I agree with an off lead dog shouw not be allowed to approach an onlead dog however, I know that, you know that, but again the average pet person doesn't know that!

I can understand how you paniked, trying to keep your dog calm and control both of yours.  Also with being close to a road, some people see there dogs as so well behaved.  We have a lab round our way that is offlead while walking on paths down the main road, scares us terribly when she comes bounding towards our 4 dogs.  (All dogs friendly and do get on! :) )

All I'm saying is try not to blame the average pet owners who have no idea about dogs body launguage etc.  They may also find someone being tangled up with leads amusing. 

Maybe in furture (if this happends again) get yourself calmed down and shout (nicly) at the other owners to get there dog under control! :) 

Unfortantly it would have been your fault in the eyes of the law :( However unfair they are

At least nothign bad did happen this time, Thank god.

I have learned a lesson with this and i will shout (nicley) accross to the owners that thier dog might get hurt and hopefully it wont happen again. I am not blaming the average dog owner but i wish they went to some kind of training class to learn about their dog and other aspects of owning a dog. The more people educated the better IMO, prehaps we could set up a course aimed at these people LOL :D

:D Don't we all.  Should be complusory that all dog owners go on a course of training on how to keep a dog under control and simple do's and don't's and how to read a dog!!! :D

Saying that in this world isn't everything about learning from your mistakes?  At least in furture you are slightly wiser to this situation.  No-bodies perfect, (how ever much I like to think so! :D )

Hi Sonny - I personally wouldn't describe your dog as 'IFFY' - it simply had a bad experience on lead once and YOU have the right to walk your dogs on lead without another that is NOT under total control bounding up to you and jumping on yours!!!  It happens to us all...And do you know what?  My dog has a tendency to do it, to go bounding up to small dogs that get frightened by her - I have however worked very hard to remedy this and she doesn't do it so much now - I bet you wouldn't have felt so angry had the owners been apologetic and actually tried to do something to get their dog away????  And that I think is the difference!  We are dealing with dogs after all and regardless of what anyone says not all will be 100% reliable in every god given situation, however it would just be nice if owners took responsibility and tried to discourage it and apologise every once in a while!
Sarah (who understands your rant)
BTW - This really is a fickle board :D  You could post this exact same senario one day and get a totally different reaction.

>BTW - This really is a fickle board   You could post this exact same senario one day and get a totally different reaction

That is so true Rozzer. :p

Omgosh that is horrible , i hate people like that. You should have told him that if he didn't move his dog your doggy would bite his , that would have given him a scare! I would have yelled at the guy and told him to get his dog out of my space!

Manny, you say that and you will have the police etc round for having a dangerous dog that you are aware of :( , It's alright saying these things but you do really have to be careful today's socitey is not nice.

Rox - you mention that the average dog owner has no understanding of doggy body language.  Assuming therefore, that you, and indeed everyone else on this board is not average and subsequently do have a better understanding of doggy language surely you have to appreciate the right for a dog to say BACK OFF!
This doesn't mean my dog can maul yours of course but a warning and a possible scare is all part of canine communication?
Recently I was walking my dog on lead only for two mini schnauzers to come bombing round the bend yapping at her feet and face - The owner (when she caught up) did NOTHING and yes I was annoyed...Funnily enough (with hindsight) I hadn't put Lana's collar on properly and she slipped it..To say these annoying dogs s**t themselves was an understatement :D  only for their owner to look very put out by it all....Sense and manners is all we ask.
If my dog did something that deserved a doggy telling off then so be it.  However this has to be distinguished from downright aggression which I dont think we are dealing with here!
Sarah

By the average dog owner I mean the one that has no understand of dogs.  A majority on this bored are involved in the dog world, talk to lots of people within dogs and have alot more information on the general of dogs.

Maybe "the average pet dog owner" is the wrong terminology! :)

No Rox - I think your absolutely right ;)  What I am saying is that I thought that you and many others on this board would at least appreciate the need for one dog to tell another to back off.  It is wrong to allow your dog to rush up to another and harass it ESPECIALLY when the owner does nothing about it!
Sarah :)

Sonny, I think you have a legitimate point, the fact remains that this dog was off lead and the owners made no effort to control it.  Would they act in the same way if their dog approached a young strange child?

It can be perceived from any dog's point of view that it is extremely rude for another to enter their space without invitation.  Dogs are perfectly entitled to tell them off and some can and do.

I find it extremely rude that an off lead dog that is not under control comes bounding up to me.  I don't allow my dogs to annoy and pester others.  They are off lead and under control.  I fail to see why I should accept other people's dogs annoying me or mine.

Dogs can meet other dogs that they do not like; regardless of how bombproof they are, this is life.  No such thing as 100% in the dog world in all situations. 

As a matter of interest, a colleague at work was walking his dog on lead and another bounded round the comer, off lead, not under control and attacked him.  You don't know what any strange dog is capable off when it approaches you and your dogs.

In your situation and if it was me, it would be the owner that I would be having rather stiff words with.

Sonny,

Don't forget, if you see this dog off the lead in the same place (near the roads) regularly then you are perfectly within your rights to call the dog warden and report it.  It is a legal requirement to have your dog on a lead in a public place near to roads and this owner behaved very irresponsibly.  Hope your dog hasn't suffered any ill effects from his experience. 

If you are walking two dogs together and want to avoid tangling in their leads perhaps knotting the leads together about 18-20 inches from the collars would help, or you can buy twin leads, at least then they wouldn't be able to go in separate directions ;) and it would leave you  time to educate the other dog's owner, sounds like they need it :D

The average dog owner you meet in the park or up the woods will not have their dog under perfect control.  Saying that, I have yet to meet any average pet owners off lead dogs that are very aggressive.

If your dog is (and I stand by the word) Iffy, or for those that do not understand that, aggressive towards other dogs that invade their space.  Do not walk them where you are going to obviously meet off lead dogs.  Walk them around the street.

Obviously in the OP case she wasn't expecting to meet off lead dogs as the area she was walking was so close to the road.

Why have the rest of you got your dogs on leads, iffy temperament or iffy recall.  Whatever it is, it is your problem, not the pet owners who are strolling in the park with their pet.  Yes, it is frustrating that they do not deal with it as the more experience owner would, but it is not their fault if their dog gets bitten, you have taken the aggressive one into the situation.  (I am not aiming that on anyone on here btw)

I have a 'iffy' one that hates to have her space invaded, but I leave her offlead in a safe environment and she has the chance to get away from the situation, if the other dog won't leave her alone it gets told off, this is normal dog behaviour.  I do firmly believe 'over controlling' your dog can make more problems then it will cure.

Sandrah,

Most of us have our dogs on leads in similar circumstances to the original poster because it is a legal requirement when walking near roads.   My dogs aren't iffy with any other dogs but I've met plenty of iffy dogs who weren't on a lead and were downright dangerous with owners who just couldn't care less, what is one supposed to do in that situation??

If they are walking their dogs off lead near a road, then you are talking irresponsible ownership on their part, unfortunately with that often comes dogs with bad temperaments.  I would say the onus is on the off lead owner in that situation.

I am talking about an area of parkland or woodland where you would expect to find dogs off the lead and people walk their iffy dogs through it on lead and blame the off lead owner for not having control.  Unfortunately life is not a perfect world, just like most dogs will not do a perfect recall when they are going to say hello to another dog.

Perfect world or not - A dog in a public place that is not under control is breaking the law FACT.  I will take my dog on lead walks whenever I see fit, that is not to say she cant go off lead, it may simply suggest that I fancy a lead walk or its raining ;)  It doesn't matter in the eyes of the law how educated an owner is - If that dog is off lead and causing a nuisance - It is out of control and therefore breaking the law.  Admittedly this is about 99% of dogs we see on a walk (probably including a few of our own) but when it becomes a problem the on lead dog is within the law because it is under its owners control!!!
Sarah

> will take my dog on lead walks whenever I see fit

That is fine Rozzer, but if you are walking a dog that is aggresive and injures another dog I don't think the law will be on your side if your dog isn't muzzled.

>just like most dogs will not do a perfect recall when they are going to say hello to another dog.

Sorry I disagree.  You can train a dog to do a perfect recall in those situations. 

I didn't say you couldn't train a dog to recall.  But, like it or not the average pet owner will not have a perfect recall.  That doesn't mean to say he has not got a well balanced dog with a good temperament.

>I didn't say you couldn't train a dog to recall.  But, like it or not the average pet owner will not have a perfect recall.  That doesn't mean to say he has not got a well balanced dog with a good temperament.

Sandrah, you said this.

>just like most dogs will not do a perfect recall when they are going to say hello to another dog.

You didn't say it was the average pet owner you were referring to.  I wouldn't say the average pet owner does not have a good recall, some actually do.

It is still no excuse to have a dog off lead and not under control. 

I think Spender it depends on the individuals interpretation of control.  Sure there are some pet owners with a great recall.  Some have the type of recall they find neccasary, like coming back to go in the car etc.

It also depends on the breed of dog you have, some breeds need off lead exercise, but especially hound breeds are notorious for bad recalls, that doesn't make them bad dogs or owners.  Others will come back but in their own time.

I think it is unrealistic to expect every off lead dog to do a 'perfect recall' with distractions around.

We do often come across off lead dogs on the green stray around here. 

There is the odd one who is off lead and let pester every man and his dog.

But on the whole, most are too busy doing their own thing to bother with other dogs.  Those that do, come when called by their owners.  Mine are off lead too but they never bother other dogs.

All sorts of breeds, some x's too.  The occasional dog is kept on lead. 

My Cavalier always wants to go and say hello, and the most I can hope for is that he usually comes back once he has said it!! Mind you he has finally learned that not all dogs are friendly, and that even the most friendly dogs don't want to be jumped on unexpectedly, so if we see a strange dog he will stop and wait for me to catch up and put him on the lead. This is a great relief as when he was a puppy he was a great sufferer of selective deafness. I know a lot of you will say I should have kept him on the lead if I didn't have a reliable recall, but then I would find I could never let him off at all, whereas this way he has learned, although he's given me a few scares at the same time!

Ok, lets put ourselves in the other persons shoes for a moment.

You are walking through the woods with your dogs off the lead.  One of your sociable, well adjusted dogs goes around a bend so you lose sight of him for a moment and goes to say a friendly hello to a dog on a lead.  This dog then without any provication from yours, attacks yours viciously and causes damage.  Yours doesn't retaliate, it is a friendly well adjusted dog, but comes off the worse.............who is at fault?

It's extremely unlikely that the vicious dog could attack your dog as he is on lead and the owner can hold him back, hence no injury.  Plus your dog has the 'flight' option.  Different matter if yours retaliated though.

In the eyes of the law, it would be extremely difficult to prove that the off lead dog was not at fault. Plus the fact that as your dog was out of your sight, he/she is not under verbal or physical control.

If your dog got injured then there is nothing you can do because your dog was off lead and in law, seen as not under control.

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

Lucy D - What you are describing is probably most peoples experiences of everyday dog walking.  When you say most dogs dont want to be jumped on you are describing Sonny's dog.

Sandrah - "You are walking through the woods with your dogs off the lead.  One of your sociable, well adjusted dogs goes around a bend so you lose sight of him for a moment" - There is where you would be in the wrong technically (yes I know most of us do it) BUT that is why some problems occur.  Your dog shouldn't be out of your sight...Who is then in control of it?

"This dog then without any provication from yours, attacks yours viciously and causes damage" - Lets not lose sight of the Original post!  I think it perfectly acceptable for any dog to retaliate if an uncontrolable dog has bounded up to it, jumping in its face and being bad mannered - To what extent is what you have to assess - BUT Sonny hasn't said his dog has an aggression problem.  How Sonny's dog reacted is probably how a majority of dogs would react?? 
Sarah

From the account given i find it hard to believe that the average pet owner would not be able to read that this isn't a good situation. Any one who owns a dog would know when another dog is aggressive (not that i'm saying sonny's dog was aggressive, just telling off the bad mannered!) and should have the sense to call their dog. Similarly it sounds like sonny was really struggling to hold the dogs leads, well surely anyone could see that as a sign of a bad situation. I don't think you can just blame everything on just being an "average pet owner" it sounds more like irresponsibility to me. If the dog ran up to a child who was scared of it and was screaming, crying and flapping around would they just walk off and leave it then?!