In my continuing search for enlightenment I am currently reading Suzanne Clothier's book 'Bones Would Rain from the Sky' and also accessed her website in which she praises the prong collar and has little positive to say about head collars. 

While I would agree about badly-fitting Haltis riding up (the Dogmatic is much better) to be honest, even the Halti was a god send for our rescue GSDX who was extremely bad in traffic - not good when we have a  busy dual carriageway at the end of our cul-de-sac.  I had never  heard of or seen a prong collar (sorry, can't do links) and so wondered what other more experienced posters think?

Prongs are very rare in this country, extremely.  They are also extremely contorversial - the general consensus in the Uk is that they are cruel, barbaric tools of punishment - not true.  Well, not the punishment bit anyway - the other is opinion, of which I do not believe they are cruel.

Prongs are basically chain link collars, and each link has two tips that face into the dog's neck - blunt, of course.  When the dog pulls, the tips apply [inching pressure to the dog's neck, and the dog stops pulling.  Prongs can be used as a training aid to stop unwanted behaviours, but really they work best for pulling, delivering a clear message to the dog, in a self-correcting way - the dog feels the discomfort and stops pulling, thereby correcting itself.  Prongs don't cause pain - many people I've spoken to in the US that use them have tried them on their own neck first, and report only discomfort, like you pinching your own arm, and not very hard at that.  And, we feel discomfort more than dogs I believe.

They are very effective, and even the worst pulling dogs have been known to behave better on one - one of those people I've spoken to is a very experience dobermann owner with a 5-yr-old bitch, who pulls like a sled deog, to quote the owner :) she's tried every training method at length to no avail, and choke chains have damaged the dog's neck (before this owner owned her, I might add) - but when she put a prong on the dog, the dog began to walk, and still does, beautifully at her side.  Not ideal, having to always use it, but much better than the dog choking herself on a choke chain, or always having her head pulled back by a halti.

Personally, I haven't used a prong but I have thought about it - head collars are not, IMO, a good thing on a dog that can be unpredictable - as an example, my dobe will lunge at things without warnings (for "things", read: cats!) - he'll be mooking along, then he'll spot one before I have a chance to act, and he'll hit the end of the leash at full force.  Imagine if he had a headcollar on - there's a very great possibility of a severely damaged neck from just one incident with a cat.  Many people would argue that he'd learn from it - but all it could take is one incident and I end up with an injured dog who's too laid up to learn.  With a prong, his head would not be pulled straight to the side, it'd be no different to him lunging on a flat collar - except that he'd feel the discomfort of the tips of the prong collar, and learn without having to be damaged for it.

Many also argue that a choke chain is a better option - again, I disagree.  There was a study done not so long ago that unfortunately I can't find the link for - could get it tho, I think, with a bit of searching.  100 dogs were postmortemed (sp?); 50 had had choke chains used, and 50 had prongs.  Of the 50 with choke chains, 48 were found to have neck damage to the tissue in line with the position of the choke chain.  Of the 50 on the prongs, only 2 were found to have any damage at all.

Apologies for the extreme length of this post, just wanted to get my thoughts in before you get many replies bemoaning this barbaric item of cruelty :) It only looks bad, but really, it's an effective, kind tool - but as with any training tool, you have to know what you're doing - I dare say many of the dogs in that study with the damage from chokes were from people who didn't use them properly.  Another reason I prefer prongs - while you can still go wrong, it's much harder to do so - they don't have a "right way round" to go on, and they don't choke the dog if used incorrectly.  If they sold them in this country, I'd probably have one, assuming I didn't get assaulted with calls from the RSPCA that is!!

Surely if a dog lunges hard enough the prongs could really do some damage? People can still impale themselves on objects which are blunt. Headcollars do not cause any pain if used properly.

I can't see a dog lunging hard enough to cause damage on your average length dog lead.

Perhaps the original poster should look at the pinned topic at the top of the general section to get info on the collar.
My point was that a prong collar used on a a lunging dogs can surely do just as much damage as they would if they were in a choke chain or a head collar. A big dog can really lunge forwards on a normal length lead if they really want to.

Guess I didn't write that too clearly, very normal for me, that :D

The damage from the headcollar I'm talking about is from the motion it causes - the head being pulled round to the side, which would be much more pronounced in a dog throwing itself at the end of the lead.  I don't believe the prong would be damaging in that the prongs sit close to the skin already, so there's not much room for impalation (i know, i know, not a word :p ) to occur.  As for the choke, the damage documented in the study I mentioned tends to occur form prolonged, incorrect use - not necessarily from one lunge, although I dare say it's a possibility, given a long enough lead or a strong enough dog.  Of course there is risk of damage with any training tool like these, heck, I could believe that if the situation was extreme enough a flat collar could do harm, but I believe that a prong is much less likely to damage than a headcollar in a lunge situation.

I expect that's no clearer, but I don't think my command of the english language is going to improve any today :D apologies for that, and I'll stop typing now!!

How marvellous that there are so many devices we can use to excuse the inability or disinclination to train a dog not to do something, prong collars, electric collars, and of course they never cause pain :rolleyes:

I can't believe the number of excuses which keep coming up as justification for using a barbaric implement on a dog. 

Prongs don't cause pain - many people I've spoken to in the US that use them have tried them on their own neck first, and report only discomfort, like you pinching your own arm, and not very hard at that.  And, we feel discomfort more than dogs I believe.

So these people in America have thrown themselves full tilt onto the prong collar while someone holds on to it and drags them back ??  Wonder why I find that hard to believe?
And as for dogs not feeling pain as much as humans........well the same was said about black slaves back when people were ignorant or wanted to justify cruelty.  It also used to be thought that children and babies didn't feel pain too - how wrong can anyone be??

And to wrap it up in concern for the dogs welfare and comfort......

>Prongs are basically chain link collars, and each link has two tips that face into the dog's neck - blunt, of course.

Have you actually SEEN one for real? Held it, touched it? Seen the LENGTH of the prongs? I have -because I own one. I bought it during a trip to the US just for interest really.I certainly don't use it. Did you know they sell rubber tips for the prongs for those that don't want to be so harsh on their dog? The tips are NOT very blunt, hence the need to sell the rubber tips!

Marianne

I was shown an example of the pronged collar not so long ago and some people do actually sharpen the ends of the prongs for a "more immediate effect". I personally think that a normal prong collar is absolutely disgusting let alone with sharpened ends. Anyway, I have learnt to not voice my opinion on here so I won't go any further.

>Anyway, I have learnt to not voice my opinion on here so I won't go any further.

;) Haven't we all at some point. ;)

>Anyway, I have learnt to not voice my opinion on here so I won't go any further.

Why ever not?
This is a well regulated board with TOS that protect you from personal insult.  Of course people are perfectly entitled to disagree or even question your opinion.  When that happens to me I am always happy to either give my rationale or state that it is just an opinion and I hope I never become fearful to do so.  It saddens me to think that anyone else should not feel comfortable enough to do the same :)

I use half check collars and lots of training to get my dogs to walk to heel.  The half checks are adjusted so that when they close, they are just like an ordinarily collar. And these are 40, 50 kg GSD's.  I have used halties or headcollars to train nervous aggressive dogs from biting when I needed control of their head.  Once they were conditioned, I put them on a half check. 

Dill is spot on, you can't know how painful a prong collar is unless you throw yourself into it and have someone pulling you back hard on the end of the lead.  I wonder how many Americans have done that, lol. 

It's also worrying that some may use these collars as a substitute for training.  On the other hand, lunging dogs displaying defence/nervous aggression is only going to associate pain with the situation that they are worried about which in turn can lead to more defence/nervous aggression.  As for chasing cats, I've always found that training the 'leave' command works very well without a prong collar. 

So in all honestly, no, I do not endorse the use of prong collars or choke chains either for that matter.  On the other hand, halti's can be very useful in certain situations and with certain dogs used properly and on a short lead.

Missthing - if you read all the previous post which Admin has pushed to the front, you will see that over here, pinch/prong and "stim" collars are really not used - there may be a hard core of "macho" types who feel that they are the only way to treat/train their dogs - but they are in a minority.

I would recommend that you try the "Gentle Controller" collar/lead - here is the webpage where you can find it - sorry I still can't do links so you'll have to cut & paste !  http://www.doggiesolutions.co.uk/erol.html

We've found this to be excellent - and even when I had my frozen collar, I found that I could control 4 mad aussies, getting out of the car without being "skied" along the road.

Margot

Just realised that someone is selling a gentle controller further down Active Topics - look under Bring & Buy if you don't use Active Topics ;)

To have a dog that does not pull does NOT require any expensive gadgetry at all.  A plain, flat leather collar and time, patience and consistency is all that is required.

Of course if you have neither the time nor inclination to do this then a "management tool" will enable you to control your dog, but not teach him or allow him to learn/exert any self control.  It also means that once that "gadget" is taken off, so has your influence.

Any tool, misused, can cause harm, your voice, your lead, your collar etc etc etc

The other point to remember is of course don't be "overdogged"......................

Prong collars are not illegal in the UK however I would venture to suggest that should you use one you will be the centre of some less than welcome attention.

Even the use of headcollars can be misconstrued by some as muzzles.

Your dog, your choice but equipment is no substitute for training.

IMHO

>Even the use of headcollars can be misconstrued by some as muzzles.

Of course, a head collar should never be used in place of a muzzle, but it can be used when risk subsides but that depends on the ability of the handler.  Not recommended to average Joe Public companion dog owner. 

I support most of what Suzanne Clothier says, and her book on deepening relationships with dogs is excellent; but disagree with her strongly on the subject of prong collars. If - maybe - the dog knew how to control the prong, and if - maybe - the owner could use it as gently as if it were on a cotton string, it might be acceptable. But thats not going to happen.

Most peeps, esp. in the US, advocate jerking it as a "correction", or end up that way even if that's not was originally advised.

I remember reading some case histories where one woman's rottie kept jumping at her and grabbing her with its legs around her - a trainer said it was dominant. The dog was teaken to someone else, he took the prong off, and it was fine and never did that again. Just one example of how a large, robust dog such as a rottie could not cope.

There was someone on here who used to use one on her Terv - she described how her dog yelped - made me concerned, but you can only say so much and if peeps won't listen...

Lindsay
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're for every dog - of course they aren't, just as with any training tool or method, there will be dogs that won't respond well to it.

I certainly don't condone "jerking" of prongs - definitely not.  If I were to use one, it would be in a pssive role, if you see what I mean - I wouldn't actively tug it for a correction.  Oh, and whoever made the comment about people not throwing themselves into a prong - very fair point, hadn't looked at it that way.  Always good to have other viewpoints thrown around with these things!

I still support their use though, in place of headcollars or choke chains, except by people without a clue - as with any tool, advice should be sought on use first.  That should go for headcollars as well I believe - I've seen dogs with headcollars on held so close to their owners by headcollars they could barely see in front of them.

Of course it goes without saying that proper trainnig to start with is far, far better than the need for any kind of tool such as these!

If you hadn't looked at the implications of throwing yourself into the collar perhaps a dog won't have either :)

Another good point :) that's what I like about this place - it does tend to make me think of things from perspectives I hadn't before (even the blindingly obvious, doh!).

I think that the long and the short of it is that there are different tools for different dogs and situations.

I was stunned that friends in the US sometimes use shock collars on their dogs, until they explained that they only use them under very specific circumstances and that for the dog to run of would be a death scentance. They use them when the dogs have been trained but are not proven reliable in the field, since the area that they shoot over is around 50 sq miles with no human population, if the dog does not obey initial commands and takes to its heals they give it one quick burst on a minimum setting. If it ran out of range the cyotes would probably get it or it would starve to death. I am definately NOT advocating general use but I think under those circumstances I can understand why they are used.  

US gundog trainers are notorious for using the e collars on a high setting all the time though. Remember, the dogs are used to high settings and so even a burst on a minimum setting is training with the dog under duress. Thet dog will also have a certain amount of adrenalin in its system if its hunting etc so the delivery in all probability won't be that low. I've seen a photo of a young GWP waiting with legs braced for its "shock". Once you've seen that, it's hard to agree to any kind of justification for such devices.

Lindsay
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Lindsay Im sure that every country in the world has bad and violent trainers and they will find something to 'punish' the dog with, be it a collar or a stick!

However these guys train their own dogs and I have to say that under the circumstances I understand why they use it - I would be devistated if my dog failed to come back and I had to go home knowing that it would meet a horrid death.

Bluebell, we obviously both feel strongly and as this thread is about prongs it's probably best to agree to disagree and leave it at that :).

Lindsay
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Blimey - I didn't realise what I'd started!  It has certainly been a fascinating discussion as always.  I never had the intention of buying a prong collar - I'm now trying to wean off the Dogmatic - but I was startled that SC recommended one (though emphasising it was no substitute for the proper relationship with the dog) and as I respect her views thought I'd just ask what other people thought.

Now I know!

Thanks, L

OMG I just clicked on the CD link to see what these things looked like, as I had never heard of them until now, and I feel physically sick. How could anybody put that contraption on their dog and still look it it in the eyes. I know I couldn't. :(

I use Gencons on mine for their own safety, especially when walking three together, but on a short lead. They can all walk beautifully on their own but take them out as a pack and they forget all lead training completely. :rolleyes: It still baffles me that ppl can not only treat their dogs this way but then justify it with arguements that unless they were completely in the animals paws, they could have no idea about. I am certainly not soft with my dogs but there is no way I could ever treat them like that.

I believed pronged collars were illegal in the UK.   If they're not, they certainly should be.  They're dreadfully cruel things that I saw in the USA.  They obviously cause pain which is why they are effective at stopping dogs pulling.  I'd never use anything that would hurt my dogs and if a dog owner would use such a collar to inflict pain, they don't deserve to own dogs.

The prong i used had rubber tip covers and was very much safe(they do not jab directly in but more of on a slant) , a friend of mine tried it on her daughters neck and said it did not hurt her one little bit (she's 16). The neck is a dogs 2nd strongest part , first being their jaws. Prongs are in no way harmful and i don't see how they cannot be used correctly (must be a dimwit). Only way i can see it used incorrectly if their are to many or to little links and the owner is constantly not giving the dog any slack.

Anyone who says chokes(slip collar) are any more safe then prongs also does not know what they are talking about. I know that prongs can not be used on the agility field but slips can and this is just the most retarded rule i have ever read.

All training collars can hurt a dog but the prong is the safest , if your dog lunges witht he prong on, it isn't going to jab through your dogs trachea but maybe 1/4 of an inch through your dogs skin. Better then having your dog choke to death by lunging itself on a slip.

>a friend of mine tried it on her daughters neck and said it did not hurt her one little bit (she's 16).

How fast was the daughter running when she was stopped by the collar?

^Well you see , there is a limit on how far the prongs can be jabbed into the neck (if the collar is placed correctly meaning not loose). So if the dog was lunging then it would feel a shocking pinch rather then a slow pinch. She had her run forward and applied quite a bit of pressure , it just felt like a bunch of babies jabbing their fingers into your neck, yes there is a bit of discomfort but not enough to be abusive, plus a dogs neck is much stronger then a humans.

Yes Mannie, a bunch of babies with knives.

>Yes Mannie, a bunch of babies with knives.

HAHA, the pronged tips are not sharp , actually they are blunt with rubber tips so nope they don't feel like babys with knives sorry to say :p

OK Manny - just keep them your side of the pond!   We prefer a very strange thing indeed - it's called TRAINING!

Margot

I do something called 'training' as well , i would like you to train a personal protection dog without the use of a prong :o , You can't do it and by the time you accomplish this the dog will be old and arthritis ridden, that's why police train young dogs with quick corrections of the prong!

>that's why police train young dogs with quick corrections of the prong!

Erm ... no! I believe all constabularies in the UK have banned their use.

Sorry mannyG, I have a friend who is an armed Ministry of Defense dog handler and his dogs are NOT trained with anything other than his voice and TOYS!!!!!

<<if the dog was lunging it would feel a shocking pinch rather than a slow pinch...>>

I don't consider this OK. Why do we get down to "degrees of pain" when we talk about dog training? It reminds me of the inhumane way humans have treated other humans over the centuries, with similar excuses.

Lindsay
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I firmly believe a  'trained dog is a happy dog'.
Harsh collars are not needed with patient gentle training.
Yes....some dogs need longer training then others. But if us humans took the time, love and patience and tried to understand our dog more, these collars would not be on the market.
As usual.....shame on human beings looking for a quick fix :)

( I am hiding in the cupboard under the stairs for the fallout) :) 

I support your response overwhelmingly.  Well put.

Phew :)
Thank you :)

I agree with you too! :D

>I firmly believe a  'trained dog is a happy dog'.

Yes , i do believe this to. Not many of us that the patience and time to train our dogs to be the best they can be when we work and have other hobbies as well, sorry to say it but alot of people DON't have the patience and I'VE only used the prong to train personal protection dogs :p. Head collars or martingales work better for walking.

If people don't have the patience to train humanely, perhaps they're not suitable to be dog owners at all?

Not all of us can be stay at home moms/dads , i work full time and train my dogs but i don't intend to devote my lifes time and effort on all 4 of them =/.

I must be misunderstanding you. :o I get the impression that you consider that as long as the owner's lifestyle isn't compromised it doesn't matter if they puncture their dog's neck (you did say in a previous post that the prongs break the skin) when their supposedly training them! No, I must certainly have misunderstood - that would be evil.

No no you are misunderstanding me , i've read some post here about people saying that they have used slip collars but would not dare use prongs. Death on a choke collar is not uncommon , if the same situation were to occur WITH the prong it would be a much safer situation then being choke to death. I am saying that prongs are much safer then slips in every way. Dogs can choke themselves to death on a flat buckle and even worse on a slip, head collars work well for walking but for specific training the prong is a much safer way to have a safe quick correction on stubborn dogs that do not care if they are choking themselves to death trying to chase a squirrel.

>Death on a choke collar is not uncommon

It must happen every day here, then, to be so common as to never make the newspapers. Not like the police dog who died during training several years ago when a prong collar was used; this made the newspapers and the outcry caused all police forces to outlaw their use.

Sorry - but if the alternative to training is a prong collar - then imo, the correct alternative is NO DOG!

The trouble is that some people want everything instantly, with the least effort and input - and unless a person comes to me for a puppy, and is prepared to put the work in, then, sorry - no puppy!

Margot

Training personal protection dogs do require a pronged collar and atleast 3 hours of your full devoted time and effort for 5-6 months and more socialization than your average pet.

EDIT: And yes we do want everything instantly in this case because your not going to train your dog to bite and not release on command.

Perhaps you're unaware that it's illegal for the general public in the UK to have a 'personal protection dog'.

The police forces, the military, licensed security firms etc may use them, but never without a handler. BUT prong/pinch collars are banned by all police forces in the UK ...

The police forces, the military, licensed security firms etc may use them, but never without a handler.

And even they don't need to use these collars, JG!!  I wonder if our professional dog handlers are more skilled this side of the pond?