Ditto JG & Val.  Endorsements aren't foolproof, but they afford *some* protection to our puppies and breeding lines.  With the amount of peculiar and sometimes downright frightening queries seen on the breeding and visitors boards on CD, I think it's made caring breeders even more concerned about the future of their pups. :(  Teri  

just had an interesting one re endorsements whereby a bitch was returned to my friend who continued to show her and then mate her after finally managing to transfer ownership on a Form 6 only to find now that the pups can't be registered as the previous 'owner' put an endorsement on her registration some 3mths AFTER returning the bitch to breeder!  This is now in the hands of the KC as she never received the new registration documents so had no idea or reason to think that there would be a problem, it gets more interesting as she has now found the original registration documents still in HER name so according to that the bitch has never left her ownership and she's no recollection of signing anything for transfer of ownership.

So now the KC are in for some fun as a)original documentation is in breeders name who is also the breeder of the litter they won't register due to endorsement, b)form 6 was needed to 'transfer ownership' back to breeder as previous owner couldn't find her papers but had been showing the bitch for 2 yrs or more and had bred a litter and registered the pups with her name and affix on - someone tell me how the hell this can happen when you sell a pup with no papers to a pet home then subsiquently find it in the ring with a new owner and registered to that person who then returns to breeder and places an endorsment on her registration despite returning the bitch 3mths previously?

OMG!!! :o

Surely per the Kennel clubs own policy these hasve to be overturned as the curent owner (breeder) were unaware of the endosement being placed.  I fail to see how it was placed in the first place if the dog was never transfered from ther breeders name.  I am sure that it will be sorted, but it is a apin as it holds up the pups registrations in all this red tape.

Havoc I've got spaniels and only had one litter but endorsed the pups.  Perhaps I've just picked up too many handy hints from these boards!

Thought only the breeder could put endorsements on dogs? Let us know what the KC do!

No you can put an edorsement on any dog as long as it is in yoru ownership and possesion at the time.

It could be say that yu brought in a dog and it turned out to not be of breeding quality, or you are retiring a bitch you have already bred from to a Pet home and want to ensure she isn't used for breeding, when she is supposed to be going to a Pet home.

Its nice that you're trying to do the best for your pups Jackyjat. :-)

My feelings with endorsed/unregistered working gundogs though, is that they are almost as likely to be bred as the registered versions. However, due to their progeny not being able to be registered they are extremely unlikely to use health screening and are proportionately much more likely to end up breeding sprockers, springadors etc (I'd virtually guarantee that the dams of such litters are unregistered).

Many (good quality) field trial bred litters are bred on a more commercial basis than most of the breeders that post on here would entertain. There is often therefore a little less sentiment involved, and more commercial influences.

On reply to Jeangenie and Val I propose a question regarding your previous reply on the next page,  I do agree about endorsements but isn't it a relfection on the breeder though that there's pet puppies in a litter dont get me wrong in a realistic world everyone would have the perfect puppy but wouldn't a good breeder be trying to breed equal standards in all the litter so there's no real contrast between the puppies and that they are all healthy pups otherwise in my opinion they shouldn't be sold and should be kept by the breeder as they bred the puppy. e.g ones near the perfect standards of that breed and the other is no where near it.  So surely if breeders are trying to breed good puppies surley to god they should be aiming for a well round litter not just one out of five.  Even then the puppies shouldn't really have bad defects or faults if everyone is trying to breed dogs with less health problems.  Also if a person buys a puppy off you what happens if it only has a fault in the show ring and it's not major would you lift the endorsement then?  Or if it's one of your dogs carrying the aliment do use get that dog spayed and retire it from your breeder plan.  Curisoity thats all.  It's not just directed at use anyone who wonts to answer can.

Warmest regards Susan

I agree entirely that we should be aiming for a quality, even litter.  But sometimes a mismarked puppy is produced, for example, who while making a good pet, should never be included into the breeding gene pool.  Sometimes a genetic abnormality may show itself as the pup matures, another reason for not breeding from such a puppy.
If breeders are going to maintain/improve the breed standard, then we really should only be breeding from the best overall of a breed, without limiting the gene pool too much and remembering that no dog is perfect.
But I endorse because I don't want my bitches put at risk by an inexperienced person, as much as trying to protect my breed.  I learned many years ago that I cannot be responsible for all the dogs in the country, only those that I have within my control! :(

Hi Susan,

Mother Nature plays a part in the outcome of the breeding process too hence even with the most careful selection of a mating pair who are an ideal match for phenotype and genotype some pups will be less ideal in some respects than others - although by and large most good breeders aim to have a healthy litter that are even in type and in an ideal situation they will be nit-picking and exchanging views on the most promising pups with their experienced breeder friends :)

>if a person buys a puppy off you what happens if it only has a fault in the show ring and it's not major would you lift the endorsement then?

I know of one top producer in a breed that, albeit rarely, occasionally has produced one pup in a litter with white socks - which are a definite NO GO in the show ring (for that breed) and consequently the mismarked pup would never be introduced into the breeding pool so endorsements on such a pup would remain for life.  However the sire has produced many Ch offspring with excellent health, type, characterer etc and other correctly marked progeny have to date proven that the many virtues of the parent ought not to be sacrificed for the very rare mis-mark :)

This is just one reason why some pups would be endorsed and that endorsement never lifted - a mismarked puppy would be pet homed and not for breeding just as say a puppy with a cranked tail etc.

No responsible breeder would wish to tarnish their own good name or corrupt a carefully protected breeding line by including a dog or bitch that had a known health or character flaw or developed same.   I know several breeders who have neutered and removed dogs from the gene pool when unfortunate health problems have manifested only as they have matured.

HTH, sorry to ramble :P  Teri

EDITED: ps how did Val manage to type that fast - methinks I was incredibly slow :D :D :D

Yes, absolutely, Susan. A nice even litter of stunners is definitely the aim (unless the breeder is just interested in churning out pups to make money). However, mismarks happen (patches in dalmatians, poor spotting, lack of pigmentation) even with the best of bloodlines. These are congenital faults, not hereditary ones. Add in unilateral hearing (sire and dam can both have bilateral hearing and yet pups can be unilateral - sometimes even totally deaf), and you've got the pups, with maybe champion sire and dam, who should never be bred from. These dogs can be completely healthy, and make excellent lifetime companions - but they will never be suitable for breeding from.
:)

Thanks for your replys, one more question i'm afraid, Teri say that pup with the white socks couldn't you put that to another dog which has never past white socks down and breed that out.  I'm just reading about geneotype and phenotype and all the other alis but i'm not experienced enough to question that yet.

Val if a person buys a pup off you and they wont to breed, i thought a breeder would pass on the information they've gained in so doing preserving their line and protecting they're puppies from harms way.

No offence intended, i just love gaining knowledge from use.

Warm regards Susan

Hi Susan,

You have to remember that when breeding, in the fore front of a caring breeders mind is the improvement of the breed.  No matter how good any dog is, it is never perfect but a serious breeder will always be looking to improve on what they've already got (whether bred themselves or bought in) so there would be no point in taking a backwards step by using an inferior animal.  Faults have degrees of severity and in some breeds with a smaller gene pool more compromises may naturally be made than would be the case in breeds with a wider gene pool but there would be no good reason to breed on from a mismarked dog - perhaps a dog with less than desirable marking could be used if everything else about it was simply outstanding but not an actual "mis-mark" :)

HTH, I'm starting to feel sleepy - big whoops on that, a rare event before 3-00 am :D   Teri :)

That would be done if there was not another option.

For example in my own breed white markings on the chest or elsewhere are undesirable (small white markings on a baby pup blend away) and occasionally a pup will be born with large amounts of white on chest or feet.

When the breed was desimated in the World Wars basically any dogs of good type were used and some of these cosmetic faults were forgiven.

The dogs would produce correctly marked offspring but would inevitably also produce ones with unacceptable markings, and you can guarantee sods law would be that it was the otherwise best in the litter.

So if you have the option it is wisest not to use dogs with obvious faults in a breeding plan as you will have a higher chance of producing ones that aren't up to scratch.

Val if a person buys a pup off you and they wont to breed, i thought a breeder would pass on the information they've gained in so doing preserving their line and protecting they're puppies from harms way.

Hi Susan.  I appreciate you trying to learn which is why I try to answer your questions as honestly and fully as possible! :)

If somebody asked for a pet puppy and then rang in 12 months and said they wanted to breed a litter, then to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be too helpful!!  If, on the other hand, they said that they wanted to learn more about the breed, with a view to eventually maybe having a litter, then I'd do my best, over a period of a couple of years to pass on as much information as I could to help them in their learning.  My breed and certainly my line are seldom self whelpers, so it's not just a matter of choosing the right stud dog, but learning as much as possible about mating, whelping and rearing happy, healthy pups.  I would only lift endorsements if the owner if sincerely interested in the breed and not just breeding, and I make this perfectly clear to prospective owners.

I have had a number of enquiries over the years from people saying "I've always wanted to breed dogs, so I want a bitch puppy to breed from", with no interest other than to produce puppies.  I just say "Sorry, not with one of my bitches" and pass these enquiries on to other breeders who are happy for their bitch puppies to be used in such a way - it's just not what I've spent years studying, time and money entering and travelling to shows, and 8 weeks on my hands and knees for!! ;)  I'm not going to pass all that on to puppy producers!! :(  There are other breeders breeding from my line, but they are people who are committed to the breed, and I do all I can to help and support them

Dont get me wrong Val i can totally understand why you'd be like that and i'd also be like that to if i was breeding myself.  When i asked that question though i was talking about a person who was genuinely interested in the breed not someone who was exploiting it for their own gain, and ruining it at the same time.

Hi Brainless and Teri, i know use have said you wouldn't use a mismarked dog because you wouldn't wont to go backwards well in that case shouldn't the dog who has passed those genes down be neutered, and also it doesn't always mean does it that that dog will pass them down if they're mated with a dog which doesn't have the same alis, corret me if i'm wrong i might just be getting the whole recessive thing out of hand.  Can dogs have dna tests to see which one is passing down unwanted faults?

Warm regards susan

>Can dogs have dna tests to see which one is passing down unwanted faults?

Unfortunately, no - if they could, breeding quality dogs would be a POP!

It's very complicated, Susan. Discarding from the gene pool dogs whose offspring have minor cosmetic faults is throwing the baby out with the bathwater; the problem could last have been seen five generations back, with the dogs in between appearing clear of it. The best you can do is not repeat the mating, and not breed from the affected individual. If it's a more serious structural fault then yes, you'd have to look closely at the entire line to see how prevalent it was. A one-off can be random bad luck, because not all faults are believed to be hereditary.

Hi again Susan,

Ditto to JG's comments ;)  The dog I'm referring to has been used several times over spanning just under a decade - he's probably produced 3 out of 100 puppies with a white sock but has produced double figures in champions and many other CC winners - several of which have gone on to produce further Champions and CC winners and none that I'm aware of have gone on to throw pups with a white sock :)

No dogs is perfect (except our own of course :P ) but some are outsanding producers and if the worst they ever produce in a breed is a very occasional and only slight colour defect, then IMO their worth is far outweighed by a minor risk - which don't forget has absolutely no affect on such a pup's ability to be a wonderful, healthy, happy and very well bred family pet :)

Regards, Teri

>say that pup with the white socks couldn't you put that to another dog which has never past white socks down and breed that out.

You always try to avoid adding faults to a line. The dog who's never passed on white socks (or another mismark) has already had the fault bred out - why undo all that hard work and put it back again? You'd only do that if there was no alternative - if the mismarked dog was otherwise an outstanding example and the gene pool was very limited. In the numerically-strong breeds there would be no point, so best to remove the mismark from the gene pool completely.

Just had a thought. Even with endorsed papers alot of uncaring people will still breed from their bitches. Endorsing papers can't stop them. These people aren't bothered if the pups can't be registered. I always see litters advertised saying parents have excellent pedigree and are k.c reg, but the puppies are not.

That's true. You can't prevent people breeding if they decide to - you can only limit the damage they do to the registered gene pool. :(

That is correct BUT with Education from sites like these, breed clubs, and word of mouth, helpful advice from other breeders WE can try to prevent would be purchasers buying puppies that are not KC register and even better undesireable breeders.

It can work if everyone takes time to give advice. 

If you put endorsements on do other Kennel Clubs keep to what you request, i.e. the Irish Kennel Club?

You know I was just wondering that the other day, could you register a litter with a foreign KC and then 'import' the pups?

Why?

Just wondered that's all, came up in conversation with someone! Don't worry we don't breed!

Not unless the bitch was already registered with the foreign KC which would only have happened if our KC had granted an export pedigree. Which is the other endorsement that's put onto registrations.

The Irish Kennel club certainly do as when I registered my youngest (who has her endorsements that I placed on her) with them they added the endorsements the saem as they were on teh kennel club ones.  In fact I had to send them proof of the Microchip and Tattoo numbers they wouldn't just take what I wrote at face value.

THat's good because one of my pups is going to Ireland and I wanted to make sure :d

I havnt had time to read all of the posts here yet.But can i ask what the point is of a breeder endorsing their own pups(the ones they've kept for themselves)? :)

I don't endorse the pup that I am keeping or those going to known exhibitors/breeders.  If I didn't respect their attitude to their dogs or breeding, then they wouldn't be having one!!

I do because at the4 time I register them (two weeks old) I won't know which ones are going to be kept or going to freinds in show homes.

I have this situation at present as 3 from this litter are going abbroad and two of them to show homes.  when they choose theri puppy then I will give them a signed letter fto remove the endorsements and also the application for Export pedigrees.

I thought it is the breeder who is the one to apply for the export pedigree from the KC!

It does not need the breeders signature if the new owner applies as it cannot be issued untilthe transfer of ownership is completed.  The breeder of course can apply for it also.

I'm muddled. :o Are you saying that, if the breeder has endorsed the registrations forbidding the issue of an export pedigree, the new owner can apply for one without a letter from the breeder asking the KC to lift the registration? Surely not - otherwise what's the point of the endorsement?

No, if you look at my previous post I mentioned that I will ahve to lift the endorsements and (give the new owners a letter for the KC) for the pups that are going abroad once I know which they are.

*light dawns* Ah, I knew I must have got hold of the wrong end of the stick! :o I blame my lack of sleep! :D

What has been keepign you awake, not the horrid huricane?

No, fortunately. Just too many things to do, now that I'm not in a job!

JG I missed you being out of a job is this recent? Sorry if it is. :-(

About a month ago. :(

Sorry to hear about that.I missed it if you said. Fingers crossed something comes up you want soon.

Because you don't know which one your keeping at the time you register the litter.