When we went to Leeds on Sunday, i ended up with the Vhc and there was only five in the class.  When you get placed at shows does that let you know what you're in for in the future, or should you just take it with a pinch of salt.

Warm regards Susan

Any dog show is just one judges opinion on that particular day so no it doesn't always follow that what you get at one show will be what you get at the next.  Especially when you are talking about puppies as they all mature at different rates and you will have ones that are just at their first show and others will be nearly ready to move up to the next class. 

different judge, different day, different place :D

We have been binned many a time but yesterday got a CC so all depends on the judge- keep at it and good luck :D

Well done lel i bet your over the moon.

Warm regards  Susan

Dont worry Susan my first few shows I was placed at the end of the line or sometimes not placed at all, then to our surprise we got given a first place after that I thought things might look up but we didnt get anything at all until a couple of weeks ago when we got another first place :D since then we have had a couple of 3rds.  You take the rough with the smooth with showing, especially if you are a new face it can be difficult to get placed until your dog is known.  dont give up though :)

It depends on the breed you are in how quickly you do well.  In dalmatians I personally believe if your dog is good enough it can do well but having talked and shown in other breeds I realise it is not quite so easy with other breeds.  Just perservere with it one show doesnt mean you have a rubbish dog.  We have not done very well at all with Beagie but I know she is a good enough dog but is very late maturing and not as large as some of the others.  When we showed Tigger we got BPIS with nobody having seen us or the dog before at a club show against some very well known faces.  I generally find in general all rounders tend to be better although they can have a hidden agenda just as much as breed judges.  ;) Stick with it. :)

To get a true picture of yoru dogs quality you really need a full seasons shows under different judges and your will tehng et an idea if yoru usually in the top half of a class middle or bottom, but of course with yougn stock this can all change.

It's hard to tell with just 5 in the class. :) If you'd got a VHC in, say, Golden Retrievers with 30 or more in the class that would have been very good indeed -now all you know is that on the day, under this judge, he placed your dog last -but would he/she have still given you a VHC if it was 15 in the class? Only time will tell. :) It's a good idea for you to keep notes of the judges you show under, as you will soon realise if some don't like your dog and others do (then you needn't waste money on entering under the "wrong" ones again)-in most breeds there can be type and/or colour variations so that some judges prefer one type and others another.

Marianne

Thanks everyone for your advice and warm comments.  Good luck with your showing to.  Oh yes one more thing, what does it mean when people say when your dog gets more recognised in showing?

Warmest regards Susan

Judges often sit around the ring at champ shows, they will look dogs they like up in the catalogue to see who they are, who their parents are and who bred them.  Once they know the dog is from decent lines they are more likely to place it :)

That is certainly not the way a judge should judge, but sadly it does happen when you have a judge who doesn't ahve the knowledge for the courage of their convictions.  I prefer to think this is an exception and not the norm.

Dogs do get teh hang of showing and have more presenece once they and you are more confident in the ring.  I find this especially so with males.  A male you may not have really noticed will sudenly walk into the ring and demand to be noticed.

I was going to say thats dreadful if the judges do that, because they wouldn't be allowing for new blood to get recognised if the dogs are well bred.

Warm regards Susan

Hi Susan

It can of course mean that a dog genuinely earns a good reputation for consistently out classing/ out performing the current competition (regardless of it's pedigree) - although it bodes well for less experienced exhibitors to remember that equally over exposing a raw or rangey ugly duckling type youngster and being poorly placed can gain a dog a bad reputation too ;)

So long as judges make their assessments about each and every dog "on the day" then *no* dog, no matter how high its profile, is completely unbeatable - but unfortunately some judges whether through lack of ability or lack of integrity prefer to take the easy option :(  Of course they're often left with egg on their faces when they put up the familiar handler who turns out to be showing a totally different exhibit :D

Regards, Teri :)

Hi Teri, so if your dog is an ugly duckling and it turns out to be a lovely swan when it's matured does that mean because it was young and ugley it will always get placed badly because you've over showed it when it was a youngster and not looking it's best.

Warm regards Susan

No, it doesn't have to mean that fortunately ;)

Basically, some dogs never really come together until they are 3-4 years of age (in my medium sized breed).  For example, I have a male that was OK in puppy but when he reached 1 year he just looked and felt like a juvenile for the next 18 months so I only showed him a couple of times in that period under experienced specialist judges who would recognise his potential.  Had I showed him at every Ch show I wanted to go to he'd have been poorly placed, if at all, by many judges who would never appreciate what was before them and it then becomes more difficult for some regular observers to notice a dog gradually improving!

I only began to selectively campaign him (but still largely under specialists) when he turned 3 and he had physically and mentally (debatable!!! ) matured and he instantly went on to win all his PG and L classes on the trot and also 1CC, 3RCCs and BOSIS at the Breed Club show.   So I pulled him temporarily as a youngster and protected his reputation and then capitalised on his quickly developed good reputation when he was ready to take on serious competition.  Regards, Teri :)

There's also the subject of handling Susan.  My daughter was a natural handler and at 6 years of age was better than me!!  I took her bitch who had 1 CC at the time, to an Open Show at a County Show, because it was cheaper to enter a dog than to pay to get in at the gate!!!

I won the Open Class with her but only got Reserve Best of Breed.  The judge, who knew me and the bitch said "Do leave the showing to Hannah.  I've never seen this bitch stand like a growbag or move like a cart horse before!!"  It was the same bitch who had a lot of winning, but she didn't perform as well for me because I just wasn't good enough for her - I hope I've improved a little now! ;)

Skilled handling can make a good dog look brilliant - bad handling can make a good dog look like a growbag!!:)

:D @ Val - I've certainly handled a few "growbags" in my time - it's great when you get to handle one that just needs someone holding the end of the lead to keep on the right side of KC rules & regs :P

I think that is the exception rather than something that often happens.

You are making the the usual remarks that novice exhibitors make, when they don't understand why the ringside spectators are studying catalogues.  If you were right in what you say, judges would have to have memories like elephants.

Yes you are right judges do sit round the ring, looking up dogs breeding in catalogues (thats what catalogues are for!), but in most instances it is when they have observed  a breed fault on a dog being shown or most usually when a dog in the ring displays positive breed points (so that they can see what bloodlines are behind the dog in question).

What you forget is that most judges will be breeders of the breed in question and are always  looking for bloodlines to incorporate in their future breeding programme.

We brought out a new youngster at the end of last year from very old and valued bloodlines (but lines that have faded away now to 6th and 7th generation in most pedigrees).  He is very typey to those lines and you could almost hear the cataluges pages rustling as he came into the ring because people where wanting to find out his breeding as I would have done in the same situation.

I judge and I also sit and study catalogues at the ringside, but I can honestly say that knowing a dogs breeding will have no influence on  me when I am judging. But what I will say is that some bloodlines produce types of my breed that do not in my opinion fit the breed standard, but to a good judge that will be obvious in the ring and you do not need to have read a catalogue to see that.

>You are making the the usual remarks that novice exhibitors make

could you get more condesending ? I am not a "novice" to showing, just a "novice" to my breed.  And I was told about this by more than one person, who also judge, but obviously I must be wrong :rolleyes:

I thought that your remarks about judges was very condescending to people who judge, there may be a few out there who do what you say, but in my experience the majority don't. Actually I did not say that you were a Novice just that your remarks are what a lot of Novice exhibitors make.

Your posting gave entirely the wrong impression to Novice exhibitors IMO.

How many judges would admit that is what they do ???? not many im sure.

Maybe you dont but im sure there are a fair few who do.  I wasnt intending giving the wrong impression to the novice exhibitor, just sharing my experiences - if thats ok :)

>Judges often sit around the ring at champ shows, they will look dogs they like up in the catalogue to see who they are, who their parents are and who bred them.  Once they know the dog is from decent lines they are more likely to place it  <

That is certainly not the case in cavaliers & not when I judge either

I am a trained GSD judge & I actually do an individual critique on each dog as I do their individual assessment, then when placing the dogs I refer back to my notes to place the dogs in the order starting with the dog who appears to be closest to the breed standard & working backwards. I do this for all breeds & not at the end after I have finish the placements, I use a template with each part of the dog having its own section where I put notes regarding each dog & I also do a sort of star rating for the dogs I believe are the closest to the breed standard(this is my own method)

I do not fault judge except for temperament I will never place a dog, even if it's the only dog in the class, if it has a faulty temperament

So you are telling me judges dont sit around the ring and watch the dogs to see which they like ?? of course they do, and of course they look them up - just through curiosity of course.

In my breed the breed specialists wouldn't even need to look up the breeding as most people are aware of what is being bred.  That doesn't mean they can't judge them fairly.

I agree with you Brainless.  Nearly everyone knows the parents and from what line my dogs are from.  Tigger is very typical of her line whereas Molly is more of her mothers line.  I have seen all rounders lurking ringside just before judging appointments but that is there choice.  I know that although I am not a judge I do tend to like dogs which are of my type which is the correct size less bulky specimens and I also tend to prefer heavier marked dogs and if they dont have enough spots they look under done to me. So if I was judging I would go for dogs which look like mine as that is the type I prefer.  One of the best judges I have ever seen for judging to type was Bob Gregory.  When you looked down the line all the dogs were of a type which is very unusual and I dont think I have ever seen such a similiar line up. :)

>One of the best judges I have ever seen for judging to type was Bob Gregory.

I like Bob Gregory too! He gave my Harry 1st in MPD (large class) at Harry's first champ show at 6½ months! :D

I used to like Lily Turner, you could see what she was looking for in any breed she judged & she had such a depth of knowledge of the correct conformation of the breeds it was frighthening She also could explain her placemnet against the breed standards when she went round the benches after judging

& she did give my Ch Beardie her third CC & third BOB over the current top dog in the breed ;)

He gave Molly a RCC from junior the only one mad enough to ;)

Of course judges (who are generally exhibitors, and often breeders too!) are allowed to watch other people judging! I'm sure you don't imagine they sit at home twiddling their thumbs in case they get invited to judge! :D No, they're ordinary folk like you or I. Just because they mark their catalogue with the dogs they like (just as I do, and I don't judge!) doesn't mean they're going to go home and memorise everything they've seen and place future classes according to what they saw maybe two years previously ... ;) :D

Im talking about judges who are judging within the next few months (and no, not all of them), as I believe I have already said im going by what ive been told by people who know and what ive seen.  Maybe you have all had different experiences, it doesnt make you right and me wrong.

LOL Claire

I can only say that if a judge needs to look up a dogs breeding when they give CC's then they don't see the breed very often

I know one judge who is at most of the shows & yes she/he watches the judging & marks the results in the catalogue

When she/he judged the results were as I expected as the dogs she/he put up are the type she/he has & breeds & so will be in her/his opinion be closest to her/his interpretation of the breed standard & I could see why sh/hee placed the dogs as she/he did

What amazes me is when the judge does just the opposite(& they do)& puts up the opposite to what they breed & show ! Answers to that conundrum on postcards

im not talking about CC's im talking about getting placed - any place- at a champ show.  I was told that once people got to know who I was and the breeding behind my pup (his lines are very obvious anyway) I would start doing better, because alot of judges are too scared to put up an unknown dog, and my first placement was a first place by a judge who I knew for sure knew who my boy was.

Hi Claire,

One of the top dogs in the UK for the last couple of years is a first time show dog for his owners - and we're talking groups and BIS at Ch shows here, not just places in the class :)

It's unfortunate that a lot of new/ish exhibitors can be put off the show game because of negative feedback from other exhibitors - the hobby would have died a death a looooong time ago if it was genuinely as corrupt or sewn-up as it is reputed to be in some circles.

Just because there are a few bad apples (and being realistic, yes there are :( ) doesn't mean we're all wasting our money / time etc.  15 + years ago I won the MPB class with my first show dog under an all rounder who'd judged often enough to know "all the usual suspects" and me, raw, nervous, gawky even and my pretty but clearly poorly schooled little bitch were placed in front of a couple of them!  It can and does happen - but the disgruntled or disillusioned exhibitors rarely repeat positive stories. 

Regards, Teri :)

edited to add: ps. forgot to mention my MPB win was also at my first ever champ show ;)

SusanTwenty asked : "Oh yes one more thing, what does it mean when people say when your dog gets more recognised in showing?"

I answered and now all of a sudden im being told im wrong and negative and putting new exhibitors off I only answered a question !!!!

As it happens my boy got BPD at our 3rd champ show and ive been told by a number of people that my puppy must be extremely good because it is unusual for a new face to do so well ;) .  I also know of someone at ringcraft who has his first show dog - a lab and he has won consistantly at champ shows.  So sorry if my negativity has put every newbie off showing, it wasnt intended that way.

Hi Claire,

I'm certainly not trying to tell you off or accusing you of putting "every newbie off showing" :(

>I was told that once people got to know who I was and the breeding behind my pup (his lines are very obvious anyway) I would start doing better, because alot of judges are too scared to put up an unknown dog

You did make the above comment too, however, which sounds as though you believe that there is a direct link between being "known" hence placed and being "unknown" hence dismissed.  Sorry if I've misinterpreted your remarks - wasn't intentional :)

Pleased that your doing well with your puppy too!  Regards, Teri

Well put, Teri. :)

I often feel some (not all ;) ) of the negative stories are put about by people who are trying to find reasons why their nice-enough-but-not-top-flight dog gets overlooked.

As for it being unusual for a new face to do well - usually the new faces are inexperienced in choosing their showdogs ... ;) I know I was!

I was lucky there, mine was chosen for me ;)

It wasnt actually new faces spreading the stories, it was the old hands who have been in it for 30 + years :)

Anyway, I believe my post at the beginning of this thread was quite encouraging I dont know what happened after that

>it was the old hands who have been in it for 30 + years

Kennel blindness is a terrible thing, and can strike at any age! ;) :D

>usually the new faces are inexperienced in choosing their showdogs

Very true JG :)

I know when I'm judging, there will be people ringside who can quickly sort out what I'm most likely to do with any given class - anyone with an eye who recognises what I've stuck with from the word go (including "friends" :D ) will get it more or less bang on and think I've made a reasonable job of it and others (hard to imagine, but stretch your skills here - those I'm "less popular" with :rolleyes: ) will get it more or less bang on and think I'm being a crook :P :P :P

But that's a whole new topic!  Teri ;)     

The secret IMO of a good judge is consistancy and when the judging is not then I am afraid they must be going for something other than the dogs.  I do enjoy my sport but there have been times when I really do get fed up with what has been going on when the best dogs are not winning and there is a definate angle but when I feel like this I take a break as I dont want to turn into one of the grumblers in the corner. :)

I dont think you have said anything Claire I havent heard ringside most weeks ;) 

We all get jaded from time to time TTS ;)  And like you I've taken a break in the past when I felt that it was no longer something I could enjoy.

The "corner grumblers" however are often those who don't know as much about their own breed as they believe they do.  When assessing consistency in a judge's decisions, for all they know the judge may have placed lower or failed to place typical looking dogs but ringsiders can't tell whether those dogs have the correct mouth, eye colour, two testes for eg. and there are some exhibitors (and judges :P ) who haven't a clue about correct movement so may fail to even realise when a dog is pacing never mind poorly constructed or lame on the day.

Regards, Teri :)

The most important advice I was ever given, (back in the dim and distant past when I started showing :( ) was to save all my moans about placings until I got into the car for the journey home!!! 

I have stuck with this principal and therefore hopefully have never become one of the grumblers in the corner.

-
When assessing consistency in a judge's decisions, for all they know the judge may have placed lower or failed to place typical looking dogs but ringsiders can't tell whether those dogs have the correct mouth, eye colour, two testes for eg. and there are some exhibitors (and judges  ) who haven't a clue about correct movement so may fail to even realise when a dog is pacing never mind poorly constructed or lame on the day.

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Totally agree with you on that point Teri, that very often happens, and until the grumblers can actually say they have had their hands on the dogs in a class, they should keep their comments to themselves.

Well then the Dog I bred getting the class, CC and BOB at his first all breed Champ show must be very unusual.

There are lots of fair judges but also lots of facey judges, you just have to keep trying until you work out which ones are worth trying. And of course even the fair ones won't always go for the 'type' your dog is. My dog has done really well and he is my first ever dog, but a lot of people (and not just my friends!) have said he should be a champion. But he's still the BIS in my view!!

Hi all thanks for your experience but i also read an article from someone in our dogs who also said they were wasting money showing because the judge was placing who was on the end off the lead, if though their dogs where always in the breed notes.  But i'm still going to hang in, and Jeangenie i think your point was very valid or Teri i know one of use said it, "looking for a good show dog and i do think that comes with alot of experience getting the right dog or knowing what your looking for" in a young pup, which has crossed my mind, although i'm not selling Nina out i'm going to get all the practice with her of showing and when she's gone as far as she can go she can retire on the chair where she loves to sleep and then help me train a new pup in ring class.

Warm regards susan

Sounds good to me Susan.  Lots of novices think that because established people win it's facey!  I did too when I started.  But now, over 20 years later, when I look at what I was showing, I laugh!!  I loved my Amber dearly but show quality she wasn't!!  But we learned so much together that when I had a better bitch, we started bringing home rosette!!

Hi Susan,

>i also read an article from someone in our dogs who also said they were wasting money showing because the judge was placing who was on the end off the lead, if though their dogs where always in the breed notes.

Think from memory this was not an article (by a columnist) but a letter (by a reader) - at least it certainly sounds the same as one which appeared in it's contemporary ;)  So, not exactly a general over view - more a personal opinion - formed over the period during which the writer had been showing since January this year  :rolleyes: :P

It's unfortunate that these type of remarks are given more credence than they deserve - it's only a couple of hundred words on a piece of paper after all by one very new (but already disgruntled) individual ;) not exactly an in-depth study of our sport nor representative of the mainstream.  Don't let such things put you off Susan - this is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby.  When it stops being that, it's time to change to something new. 

Regards, Teri :)