Hi everyone,

Last night we had a nice big juicy lamb bone left over from doing a dinner party, so we thoughtfully wrapped it up and brought it home to Toby.  However, once Toby had it he began growling if my husband tried to move it.  My husband tried to move it as Toby has 'guarded' a bone before, and he wanted to see if he would be the same with this one.  Toby growled at Dave, so Dave told him 'no' and tried once again to move the bone.  In the end Toby bit Dave.  Not hard enough to break the skin, but hard enough to leave two marks.

If I'd have been downstairs (I was in bed) I'd have told Dave to just leave him, and resigned to the fact that we can't give him bones if he's going to behave like this, but I think Dave was thinking that with a little bit of training he'd understand that it's not acceptable to growl like this.

Toby doesn't have any problems whatsoever if we attempt to remove his dinner from him, or toys or even his play 'bones', it's just proper meaty bones that he does this with.  I know he's not a biting dog as such, he's as soft as a brush, and after all the effort we've put in to occupy his mind and exercise him more, I'm now NOT prepared to re-home him!  I've even started liking him more - heaven forbid :D ;)

So, I was just wondering if anyone has had a dog that's done this (I'm sure someone has!) and how they handled it?  Do we just have to accept that he can't ever have these bones, as obviously if there's kids around I can't run the risk of one of them being bitten because they touched 'his' bone.

On a brighter note Toby has now decided where he'd like to go on holiday, after spending 90% of this morning chewing his way through our holiday brochure :rolleyes: :D

Sorry Keeley, no help on the dog front, just wanted to see how your niece is getting on?

I'm hoping the lamb bone hadn't been cooked? That you'd taken the meat off it to cook, so the bone was still raw? Cooked bones should never be given to dogs. Far from being a treat, they can splinter, perforate the gut and cause the dog's death. :(

As to Toby's behaviour - put yourself in his place. You've been given the most fabulous present - hurrah! Then someone comes along and tries to sreal it off you. Do you say "yeah okay, I'm not bothered" or "Oy, gerroff! It's mine!"

So, next time you give Toby a bone - a raw one! - hold one end while he chews the other. If he chews quietly, praise him. If he growls, say and do nothing. Bones are extremely highly valued, and will provoke extreme reactions.
:)

I think it depends on the bone and the dog :)  I have often given cooked lamb bones to my weak-jawed Cockers and never a sign of impact on the bone itself, although I always supervised them of course, however I could not give even a raw marrow bone to my Dandie without serious inroads into the bone itself in double quick time.

Hi Keeley,

Firstly, I hope this was a raw bone - it reads as though it was cooked from your post.

Secondly, he eventually bit your OH because he had been giving him sufficient warning - by the growling - that he didn't want him to take his prized possession ;)  Dogs have a higher regard for some foods and treats than others and the occasional bone will be very high on his wish list!

There is absolutely no reason why any of us should give our dog food, be it maintenance ration or treat, and then try and whisk it away from them :(  If you were enjoying a prime piece of fillet and your OH suddenly grabbed it off your plate would you be happy? No!  so why should your dog be? 

If you want to remove something from your dog which it is already enjoying (and therefore you can also safely remove dangerous objects from him too) you have to TRAIN him to give the item up and you should do this by offering something exciting and tasty in *exchange* - bit like kids playing swap ;)  Start by dropping a piece of tasty liver, cheese, roast chicken INTO his food bowl while he's eating so he learns to associate an approaching hand with a positive reward and NOT that it's trying to steal from him.  Gradually he'll learn to realise that you're giving him something better and therefore will welcome your intervention instead of at the moment he has reason (good reason) to object to it.

HTH, trying to simplify what I mean!  Teri :) 

Hi Keeley

If someone came along and wanted to steal your boiled cabbage how would you feel?

If someone wanted to steal your handbag, would you feel the same?

Toby's bone = your handbag.

It is something very valuable and worth guarding in case anyone else gets hold of it.

If you were having a coffee outside, and a skateboarder came by and whipped your handbag off your chair, how would it make you feel about skateboarders + coffee + handbag in the future?

You would probably sit with the bag clutched between your knees and view all skateboarders with suspicion I suspect.

So, it is with your dog, the more you try to take the bone off him, the more the dog feels he needs to protect it...........

You have two choices:

Either never give him bones ever or

Train the dog to give up anything at any time.

The former is easier and quicker but obviously depends on there never being anything worth guarding in his life, ever.

The second takes longer but means that should the day ever come and he has something potentially lethal in his choppers, you can remove it without risk to the dog or yourself.

If you want to learn more about resource guarding "Mine" A practical guide to resource guarding in Dogs" by Jean Donaldson is an excellent book.

HTH

Thanks everyone.  I hate to say it but yes, it was a cooked bone.  Please don't all scream at me at once, but I had ABSOLUTELY no idea that a cooked bone could be a problem to a dog :( Obviously I'll never do it again.  Fortunately, due to what happened with OH, he didn't have chance to chew on it so no harm will have been done.

I can see where you're all coming from, and I had a feeling he was guarding it.  Don't get the wrong impression, I don't put food down and then take it away from him.  The way we discovered he was growling when we gave him bones was when he had one and Dave simply bent over to him (this was a few months ago) and stroked Toby and asked him if he was enjoying it (as you do!!) and Toby growled at him - we didn't just give it to him and then take it away immediately for no reason, we're not that cruel. 

I guess I didn't realise that dogs would act differently between their toys and bones, I thought all were prized possesions in their eyes, but now I know differently.  I think I'm going to have to just not give him bones in future, as I can't risk him growling at kiddies etc.  He gets plenty of other non-bone treats, so he's not particularly missing out. 

Natalie: Unfortunately my neice has gone back to her boyfriend.  As far as I know she's very happy again, but I know for a fact it won't be for long.  The annoying thing is that she's gone back to him under the illusion that he 'might not have done it' which really annoys me, as he's simply and purely getting away with it.  How I'd love to call the police and report him for under-age sex, but where would it get me?  Thanx for asking

Well lets hope thy work through it, for the babies sake, and that if it did happen, it doesn't happen again! I know you must feel really angry, but all you can do is be there for her if the worst happens.

Hi Keeley,

It's still a move in the right direction to train your dog the correct way to give things up - he could equally become attached to a particular toy or find something in the garden or when out on a walk etc that he'd instinctively guard anyway :)

That aside, he may one day take something in his mouth (broken or sharp object, electric cable, etc etc) which he doesn't appreciate the danger of and which you need to KNOW he'll give up to you when asked to do so. 

If you train your dog that human intervention is not a threat, then you will have a dog which is trustworthy around anyone - including children even when not used to them - and he'll be a better dog and you more relaxed owners for that training :)  Try the book tohme suggested - I've not read it myself but seen it recommended several times and she's pretty good at sourcing the best material for specific problems ( but dont tell her I said so :D :D :D )

Regards, Teri

Thanks Teri, I'll certainly look into it.  He's never 'guarded' anything else while we've had him, so I'm hoping it's just his bones that he's 'potty' for!  I may try what someone suggested earlier (could have been you - can't remember) and try holding the bone while he has a lick etc, and see how he reacts to that.  I just don't want to risk getting hurt, but I guess I'm not as stupid as my OH (I'm allowed to call him that - don't you all try it!) and would have taken Toby's growling as a good enough warning.  It's awful seeing him so aggresive, and quite frightening too, shows you what they're capable of if they want to!

>(I'm allowed to call him that - don't you all try it!)

LOL how true is that? LOL I always say to my mum, I am allowed to call Thomas anything but if someone else did, there would be trouble! She says she has always been the same with us (as in her kids!). :D

Sorry I will stop high jacking your thread now... :D

I havnt read everyones reply so, sorr if I'm repeating.

A growl shouldn't be look at as a bad thing, a growl is a warning, so telling your dog off when he growls may stop him in future, but instead of giving u a warning he may just bite. Listen to him if he growls and find ways to work around it (such as teaching him that if you take something from him he gets something just as nice in return), not aggrivate it :)

Think I'll have to buy that book too as I'd never encountered resource guarding til we got our second dog. We feed our dogs side by side with no problems and are able to give chews etc. Sometimes there will be a minor scuffle over a chew or something but it is usually sorted out amicably. Our boy is such a big girls blouse...if the pup steals something off him, he stands over her and whines until she gets up and goes away, leaving the chew behind. We reckon she just can't stand the whining as it's REALLY irritating :) We can give them a bone each and that's okay too although we always supervise. We have even caught them chewing on the same bone at the same time. The OH and I can take anything off them with no problem so we thought all was going well until we nearly had unholy war over a chicken wing. I separated the dogs (one in the house, one in the garden) and gave them a wing each. OH inadvertantly left back door open and our boy toddles in, minding his own business. Pup comes flying down the hall and attacks him! He wasn't anywhere near where she was eating her bit of chicken but I can only think that she must have thought that he was intending to take it off her so she was giving a serious warning?? No-one was hurt but it sounded scary, especially since she is a pup and, if anything, we would have expected this sort of behaviour from the older dog? I'm assuming now from what I've read above that chicken wings are the pup's most prized and highly valued food. I have been too afraid to give them chicken wings again but I want to be able to continue give them without causing a fight. Is there any way of avoiding this happening again or is separating them the only way?

Sorry for the long post...and for hijacking your topic, Keeley :)

Not a problem!  I'm just glad to see that I'm not the only one with this problem, and equally not the only one who doesn't know how to deal with it!  Makes me feel less of a dummy!

Resource guarding between dogs is normal and natural; after all in the wild he who controls the resources wins! 

I always feed my dogs separately, I do not expect them to share a) because their food is extremely high value and b) they are not "that type of dog", and will compete for anything.

Better safe than sorry I say.

Dogs really do not DO sharing, IME but then mine are kept "right on the edge" where food is concerned; unlike me :D :D

Another way to do ti is make the item less valuable.  My lot get big juicy bones,b ut they don't squabble over them as there are always more bones than dogs, and they are there whenever they want them do cease to be a big deal.

This worked very well with my freinds Golden Retriever.  They waited until she had tired of the bone and then swapped it for soemthing new, and praised her well for giving up the bone.  Gradually she stopped being fussed about teh bone, even if she had only just got it, but she was by then having them regularly enough not to find them so wonderful.