Hello everyone,
We have a 2 year old Labrador Dog and have him purely as a pet and will not be used in breeding.
As we are planning in the next year or so to add a Lab bitch to our family, I am considering having our dog castrated. He seems to have a lot of ‘dribbles’ first thing in the morning and spends ages cleaning himself. Also any other dog is proving too much of a temptation for him, dog or bitch!
I am at the Vets tonight anyway, so will speak to her then, but wondered what everyone's view was on the ‘snip’. Should it be routinely done or not? With a previous dog we had, my husband insists it lost interest in everything once it had had the op, but could this just be a 'man thing'?!
Thanks,
Sally.

Go for it. He is now mature, so it won't affect his masculine good looks, and he will not alter too much, but may be a little clamer around the opposite sex.

You may also need to adjust his food intake down by up to 20%.

It is a man thing, men hate the idea of castration. I think they are worried that we might want to improve them too!

Hi Sally
Why have him neutered if he is not a problem. An unecessary anesthetic to me is pointless, why put him through it?
Dawn.

Hi Sally - how's things?

Firstly, a castrated male can still mate with a bitch (but obviously not get her pregnant)
Secondly, yes, it does change their attitude to life, and they can loose their sparkle, but in some dogs this may not be a bad thing - depends on the dog and the degree of sparkle!
Thirdly, all my bitches have regarded castrated males as odd ( I hesitate to use the word I should) and tend to bully them - but as he's well mature now this may not be a problem.
Don't know about incontinence in a male dog - does anyone else?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo

My bitches bully my entire male - dread to think how they would treat him if he was castrated! In his defence he does only put up with so much before he lets them know he has had enough :-)

Christine

Hi Jo,
Things are great, thanks.
Hope you are good too.
Finn is in great condition at the moment and the vet is happy too, with his weight etc.
However, back to the ‘snip’. This morning on the beach, he could see a dog about 600yds ahead and got a whiff. I have him on his lead until I can see who’s about ( he never bothers people) as I mentioned before he’s a bit amorous. He took one lunge, snapped his (leather) collar and was off like a rocket. Needless to say I was not happy and the other dog owners were not impressed.
I have mentioned this in the past to our dog trainer and she indicated that it could be due to his age/testosterone levels etc. He is normally extremely well behaved but put a dog within his sight and all he wants to do is what his instincts tell him, never mind me!
With regard to his morning leaks, it’s not urine!! If that helps.
The vet tonight said there wouldn’t be a problem if we wanted it done.
Best wishes,
Sally.
Ps. One of my guests was telling me yesterday, that years ago they went from Ayr to Oxford (I think) to get a Flatcoat puppy. The best dog he’d had to the gun.

Hi Sally again - I like your subtle description of 'morning leaks'!!!!!
I should try the injection first, if I were you - if it works, go ahead if it suits your lifestyle. (Personally, I would be distraught if I had to castrate any of my boys).

Of course, flatcoats are THE best gundogs - goes without saying!

Busy trying to clean up lots of little messy faces at the moment as we've just started on puppy porridge with our litter - mucky pups or what??

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Yes, we found out recently that a castrated male can still mate with a bitch. We thought that our male Collie would not be interested in our two bitch Cockers when they came into season. WRONG - the girls were SO interested in him that he couldn't resist the temptation. I'm not sure who was more shocked him or hubby when he had to separate them!! So even though our Collie is castrated we will still have to keep him away from our bitches when they are on heat. We now wonder whether it was really necessary to have him done at all. :(

At least it's 'safe sex' ;) :O

Liz - just a note adding onto yours in case folk read this who don't realise that you should NEVER try to separate a dog and bitch who are tied - can cause serious damage to either/both of them. A quick trip to the vets is called for if they're both entire and it's a mistake.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Thanks for that Jo. I can't believe how ignorant we have been about this. :( I didn't know anything about it until AFTER the event. Apparently hubby panicked but both dogs appear to be none the worse for their experience :) thank goodness. Thanks again for highlighting this important piece of information because I'm sure there must be some other ignorant people like myself out there .
I take it that should this ever happen again, God forbid, we should just keep calm and WAIT for them to separate in their own time. Anything we should do whilst we're waiting? :o
(I bet this subject must have put a smile on everyone's face. :D )

Make a pot of tea, have a slice of toast, as they will usually be tied for 15 to 30 minutes! :D

my stud dog was tied for 1 hour,on a bitch first mating,i thought the next mating would be the same time, but only 12 mins,you just do'nt know with dogs.

Sally if you are worried about side effects from the snip, and whether it will change your dogs behaviour etc... then speak to your vet about the chemical castration injection. This is a temporary jab which mimicks the effect of a full castration so you can see the reaction in your dog.
If nothing changes then it's not worth having it done apart from the usual reduction of prostate problems and testicular cancer. If it sorts him out then go ahead with the op. :)

Hi Lara,
I spoke to the Vet last night, although he didn't mention the injection, he did say that prostate problems were an issue with dogs that hadn't been castrated. It's hard to know what to do really, as that alone is worrying enough. I'll see what he says about the injection. Have yours (or anyone else's for that matter) had the jab ?
He is as soft as a pudding at all times and never, ever shows one ounce of aggression even when he is rebuked (by other dogs/bitches).
He is out plodging tonight - we don't need to go to the beach, the field will do after all the rain!!
Sally

I have the injection if my stud male is not working and my bitches are on heat stops all that 'singing' he likes to do at 2am!

It takes between 2 & 3 days to kick in and the effects last on average 3 wks which is great for us as the girls generally come into season together. It doesn't stop the urges completely in all dogs just depends on your chaps levels, some could have a bitch ready for mating under their noses and ignore her others would attempt to mate lol.

I only know of one dog who got the jab and that was because of prostate problems. It did the trick at the time, but the problem flared up again some months later so he was permanently castrated.
Personal choice - but I would go for the op :)

Have used the jab on my dogs, no problems at all. Have also had one dog castrated but would never do it again except for strong medical reasons and I don't just meen the posability that they may a some future date suffer with a prostate problem. After all most men run the same risk but we don't rush in with the knife even if sometimes we would like to. :D Jackie H

True Jackie :D
But most men have access to free medical cover/operations/doctors visits/medication while dog owners have to pay through the nose for veterinary appointments. :( Even insured dogs cost some.

Haven't found that castration and the associated problems are treated free either. Jackie H

Why

why risk your boy mating with a bitch in season (which could have happened on the beach ??) and producing x breed puppies that no one really wants ?? there are surely enough unwanted dogs out there and if your lab is a pet then have the op, tardak injection is ok but can't be used for the rest of his life and i think preventing cancer and prostrate problems in older life is much kinder to your dog. I would also note that a lot of breeders on this forum have show dogs, stud dogs so they would of course agree with tardak.

Quite frankly Choledog if an accident mating were to take place whilst out walking on the beach then the only person to blame is the bitch owner, not the person owning the entire male :-( That is not a good enough reason to have your dog castrated IMO.

Claire why do you say the bitch owner is at fault and not the dog owner, both are trying to keep entire animals, why should one be responsible and not the other?

Because if the bitch is in season surely she shouldn't be off the lead running about where other dogs are likely to be

When my bitch was in season I kept her on the lead albeit a very long one so she could at least have a bit of a run. She is spayed now due to medical reasons but if she weren't then now we have a big enough garden for her to get plenty of running about exercise whilst keeping her on the lead when out in public. I personally wouldn't take the risk of letting an inseason bitch off the lead for fear of a dog suddenly appearing from nowhere having sniffed her out. Is that wrong then? :-)

No not wrong about keeping the bitch on a lead or at least under whatever control is appropriate to that individual bitch but it can be very difficult no matter how good the bitch owner is if the entire dogs owner takes not responsibility as well. My cocker was 8 before she was speyed, I never had any problems walking her locally to my house, it just happens that in this area the dog owners seem very reasonable and on being told she was in season never seemed to mind putting their, sometimes reluctant, dogs on a lead until they were far enough apart. Last year though we bought a holiday home in a tourist area and we found things very different there people on holiday seem to be relax their dog control ttoo:). The final straw was in the local park when a very large dog behaved in a very dangerous manner when we tried to shoo him away whilst his family watched from the other side of the park and made no attempt to come and get him. Yes it is the bitch owners responsibility to ensure an unplanned mating does not happen but I can't really see why ethically the same cannot be said of the keeper of an entire male.

Isabel I hear where you are coming from now and you have a valid point. :-) I'm forgetting that not everyone put's their dog on a lead the moment they see another dog coming. I do although not necessarily because I think it may be a bitch in season but more because that other dog may not be friendly.

I guess the way I am thinking is if my male is off the lead and he gets a whiff of a bitch in season who is also off the lead, if they were to mate then I would blame the bitch owner for walking their dog in a public area off the lead. Lucky for me my male doesn't go too far away from me when running freely although I don't know what he would do if he caught a whiff of the in season bitch. If they were to mate by accident because I couldn't get him to come back to me and the bitch owner was also not in control then I would of course take part of the blame and pay towards the cost of any injections etc. Hopefully the bitch owner would take some of the blame and not want to rear an unwanted litter from an accident mating hence the injection. However I guess that is the chance we all take when letting our dogs off the lead and that is where I was coming from when saying the bitch owner would be to blame as surely they can be extra careful for 21 days or so. :-)

Well I see where you are coming from too Claire :) I have plucked a small 'rapist' from my bitches back as soon as he landed :) but even when a bitch is under full control i.e. on a lead a large dog can be downright dangerous. I actually dont mind much if dogs approach mine off lead when they are not in season, provided of course they are not aggressive but I do feel the dog owner is equally responsible if I tell them my bitch is in season. I don't expect them to be able to do a perfect recall but I do feel they should make an effort to get their dog back on the lead and to that end I will help as much as I safely can, at the end of the day they are choosing to keep an entire animal too so I still feel that makes them equally responsible. Like you say its only for a few weeks a year, so I did make lots of effort to make life easier for the local dogs, walking in quiet areas and in quieter hours etc. but likewise there are not an awfull lot of entire bitches about these days either so the occasional effort for the dog owners doesn't seem a lot to ask either :)

I am sorry but I would never take my in season bitch to a public park in that condition, or any where else that dogs can legitimately be off lead!

When in season the girls are walked around the streets, and if I see another dog walker I cross to the other side of the road, as I don't think it fair of me to cause problems for their male!

Unfortunately Brainless where my holiday cottage is there are plenty of dogs off lead on the streets too particularly around the back lanes. I just feel a bitch is as entitled to her exercise as any dog and in an area where male dog owners act equally responsibly, as it seems to be where my main home is, its perfectly possible to achieve that.

Whatever the responsibility the dog's owner may have it all comes down to one thing in the end. It is the bitch who carries and rears the litter and it is bitch's owner who is left with the pups (and in the worst case scenario might lose the bitch in a Cesar and have to raise the puppies by hand). It is therefore up to the sensible bitch owner to protect the bitch!

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Indeed Joan, I'm so sensible :) I have had my poor bitch speyed but it miffed me to do so and I don't think I would have done it if I was not meeting up with entire dogs whose owners seemed incapable of at least meeting me part way on the responsibility front.:)

That is unfortunate Isabel. the dog Wardens around here have been very efficient re loose unacaompanied dogs! I do occasionally see people walking a dog alomng the street off lead, and it is one of my pet peeeves, as it is AGAINST THE LAWof the land. On lamp posts here it says that you can be fined £250 for having a dog off lead, but it is up to £500 for fouling!!!

I do feel that I am entitled to walk my in season bitches, and as dogs are supposed to be on lead in the street, then I feel that I have a perfect right to do so, as should you of course.

So really it isn't the fact that people won't control their dogs amourousnesss (is that a word?) but that they are irresponsibly allowing them off lead where they have no business doing so!!!

Hi Sally, I have a sheltie who was put on Tardac before he was castrated. He had a retained testicle, and my vet advised that I left it until he was 4. I'm not a fan of 'if it moves, neuter it' so Storm was put on Tardac for six months before the op. If he'd lost 'sparkle' I intended to have the undecended testicle removed, but to leave the other one. As it was, he didn't show any change in behaviour at all on Tardac so we went on and castrated him fully. It wasn't a good decision. He did eventually lose interest in bitches, but only many years later. While his character did not change, the rest of the pack became less tolerant of his 'Captain Mainwaring' personality. And his coat became very thick indeed. I struggled to keep him neat for years, but now that he's a very old gent I clip him out to save him the extensive grooming that he needed after he lost the family jewels.

You aren't in a pack situation, and a labrador's coat shouldn't be a problem, so if castration is neccessary to stop pups arriving, I'd probably have it done if I was in your shoes. But in my limited experience (more of bitches than males), neutering isn't quite the 'all gain, no pain' option it is sometimes portrayed as, and Tardac doesn't always give the whole story.

If it is just to stop him siring puppies why not a vasectomy, at least that will leave his hormone system in balance, and he will be less likley to suffer the effects of years without some of his hormones should he make old bones. Jackie H

and this way you could show dogs without the judge realizing that he had the op beacuse his testicle are still there,

Actually the Vasectomy option ought to be given a higher profile by vets. Perhaps the people who definately don't want their dog to sire anything, but hate theidea of the jewels going would find it more acceptable.

If I owned a male that for some reason shouldn't be bred from I think a vasectomy would be a good compromise for the showring! I suppose it just doesn't have the perceived advantages to castration.

What I mean is that the reasons given for catration other than birth control, are the improvement in behaviour,not bitching etc, and no testicular cancer (rare anyway), and all these reasons are used to swing people in favour for a procedure which is primarily aimed at reducing unwanted puppies!

Lets be honest the neuter everything that moves view is fueled by the rescue problem! In fact entire RESPONSIBLY owned pet dogs do not often contribute to unwanted litters! If accidents do happen then something is done about it, or the results are responsibly and painstakingly homed by the breeder.

Barbara, absolutely agree. One of my vets is a keen ferret man, and his favourite operation is vasectomising ferrets. (For those who don't know, jills or female ferrets have to have a hormone injection or be mated each year, to put them out of season. If you use the second method, and don't want lots of baby ferrets you need a 'hobble' ie a vasectomised male.) Needless to say, vasetomising a ferret is a fiddly business and a dog would be infinitely easier. But Neil has never been asked to vasectomise a dog! I suspect most people don't even know that it can be done.

Quite right Sharon.
I didn't even know it could be done!!
Yet another angle to look at.
I'm not the best at decision making anyway!!
Good luck at Border Union.
We're hoping to pop up on Sunday as we're only an hour away.
Sally.

Hi Sally, look forward to seeing you tomorrow if possible. I'm not entered (old hounds & gangly hounds only :-)), but I'll probably be handling a deerhound for Brian & Liz Spiers (Burtonbank). If you find Brian in the catalogue, the woman with the short red hair & freckles hanging onto one of his dogs is probably me :D.

Sharon,
Hope you had a good day on Sunday.
Would you believe that we were probably only 2 rings apart, if we'd been there on time!!
There were people in your ring and found your friend's number, but maybe you'd gone by that stage.
We only managed a couple of hours.
You weren't in the tent watching the Ireland match , by any chance?!
Husband said there were loads, so many he couldn't get in, but he managed!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe another time;)
Sally.

ps. Still haven't decided what to do!

Hi Sally, not in the tent, although almost everyone else seemed to be :-). Brian didn't need me to handle after all so I spent a good bit of time admiring the wolfhounds and salukis. No doubt we'll meet up sometime :-)

I didn't know that could be done either!!! - I thought it was an all or nothing job! :D Can you still show a dog that has this done?

The Kennel Club wording is 'operations to prevent breeding' or very similar, it does not say Castration or Spaying! Therefore it should be allowed according to their policy.