what do you do at ringcraft classes

The dog learns to be calm amongst other dogs of all different colours and sizes, to stand reasonably still when being checked over (vets always love ringcraft-trained dogs!), to accept being touched by strangers, to move in a straight line on a loose lead - all useful things for any dog to learn, whether or not they're ever going to see the inside of a show ring.
:)

I advise anyone who just wants to socialise a puppy that ringcraft is ideal.  I do feel many pups would be better off at these than puppy socialisation classes where often things are not very well controlled.  After all pups do not stay with a litter that long, but they do need to learn to socialise with all ages of dogs and pups

Unlike obedience it is more relaxed, a lot of time is spent just being there learning to rub shoulders in a controlled way with other dogs, many of them puppies, but adults too, and basically learning to chill out. 

As you have said standing for examination and trotting on a loose lead are all things that a pet dog should be aboe to do.

lots! :) But depends on the club.

At ours you walk in, pay ya money, sit down, go up at least twice individualy under 2 of the 3 trainers, talk to new friends you have made.  Do some work that is useful for dogs in and out the ring all together, sit down again and have tea and cake.  Then have a mock show of random made up classes depending on what dogs are there then go home.

Snap as ice queen, i especially love the coffee and cake :D :D :D
And we got pulled out 2nd last night whoo hoo ok a min pin got 1st but i had my cake so was happy :D

You would believe the amount of people who come without their dog to our club for coffee, cake (homemade of corse!) and a chat. 

Well done on your second.  Min Pins are cute little things, we have a couple at our ringcraft.  Dobes in little bodies! :D

Edit: Blue I think you need a new ringcraft, It's all about the cake...Wait no it's all about the training!

Ahhhh, no cake at mine! :(

My word thats shocking Bluesmum! no cake? how do they expect you to have the energy to do ringcraft! I would start a petition :D :D :D

lol stuff it, il take my own! :D

It may just do you good to take cake in *nudge nudge wink wink* alls fair in love and war on match nights :D :D :D

oh heck trust me to pick the wrong one .....no tea ...no cake .....all taken very serious to.....

Starry eyes when they say a good all rounder they mean chocolate fudge cake :D :D :D :D :D

Oh mine does cake and a raffle :) so i am told. cant wait to go lol
I am told there is also a little tuck shop too.

A word of warning - not all ringcraft clubs are a good experience - far too many tend to approach ALL breeds the same and can put a fearful youngster off for life !. I prefer to train my youngsters at Companion  and  open shows. I particularly hate it when the trainers approach my dogs as if they are frightened of them ( the old 'back of the hand ' approach) they also insist on my breed being shown sideways on and being baited - totally wrong and guaranteed to flatten any self respecting BSD youngster .

Yvonne

Very true!  At my local ringcraft when there was a year old oversized male GSD, who was owned by two working youngsters.  They had complained at the noise and destruction that this dog had done to their home - are we surprised??  They were told to take it to training classes and found ringcraft. :(  The really nice folk who run the class made them welcome and wanted to help so he was allowed in the puppy class and promptly walked around on his hind legs, making him taller than his owners, howling to the moon!!!  The whole class of pups was upset, which the trainers didn't notice because they were focussed on trying to help the 'problem'!
I then found a smashing and sensible obedience trainer, who was happy for me to take my pups to her puppy class, and quietly ask mine to stand when everyone else was doing a sit!! ;)

Thanks for that Yvonne, when you say training at shows, is there classes there or do you mean in the ring?
Too early for me DUH

A TUCK SHOP??? lazydaze where do you live? I might have to start stopping off at the shop on the way now! take a carrier bag in with me :D

Cardiff south wales lol.
are you too far away lol

Just a bit! lol

Trevor.  Rather then leaving these trainers who are not aware off all breeds carry on, do you tell them?  I know as a trainer I do not know how every dog stands in the ring.  I know the dally and sammy will be free stood and never touch feet, I know that a setter is stacked and top and tailed.  I know the bulldogs are face on.  I can't remember how the BSD is stood.  I couldn't tell you half the breeds though unless someone was to tell me.  I do try my best to look at shows but when it comes to the lagotto..... :D

So how is the BSD stood? Is it the same for all of them?

Has the way BSD's are shown changed then?  when I was showing they were shown side on toe the judge and baited.  I was showing my Groenendael in 1989 to 1990?

BSD are now generally shown as they do on the continent - particularly under breed judges. The dog is shown facing outwards at the end of the lead looking outside the ring for it's owner - the idea is to get them to be up on their toes with ears right up on top of their heads and a very alert expression. BSD have a high boredom threshold and standing looking at a bit of liver generally will not get the desired 'sparkle'. ( which is why you sometimes see us throwing bait etc to try and get them to look alert) Some folks do revert back to the sideways on method when all rounders are judging but using the continental method can make a mediocre dog look good and a good dog look breathtaking :D and all the top kennels and winners use this method- As for approaching a Belgian, particularly a youngster - they should always be approached confidently and directly most youngsters hate judges that stand and stare/walk round them without touching or offer the back of the hand to sniff ( why do people do this ? my dog can smell a judge from outside the ring he does NOT need to be offered your hand :() neither do they like the type of judge that 'overwhelms them' by leaning over their whole body or bouncing their hands up and down on their backs ( again why do this ? - it's a dog not a new sofa you're testing :D))

I take my pups to Companion shows and just sit round the ringside letting people stroke them and letting them have 'happy' showing experiences - I then enter them in a few classes once they are old enough at both open and companion shows and am preperaed to use these as my training - going under experienced BSD judges if at all possible so that they are handled correctly. I'm never too worried about placings during their puppy hood as this is a  slow maturing breed which can still be successfully shown well into veteran ( as the Crufts Pastoral group winner this year proves !).

I have tried explaining all this at the training clubs on my patch but have been told that this is the 'wrong' method and they insist on using a 'one size fits all' way of training except for gundogs which an are allowed to be stacked and Staffy's which are allowed to be shown 'head on' .

Yvonne

>The dog is shown facing outwards at the end of the lead looking outside the ring for it's owner

So don't BSD owners handle the dogs themselves? And are you saying the judge only gets to see their backsides when they're all lined up round the ring?

>most youngsters hate judges that stand and stare/walk round them without touching

A judge needs to see all around a dog and use his eyes before he starts to touch. Getting 'hands on' should only be to confirm (or otherwise) what his eyes have told him.

>or offer the back of the hand to sniff ( why do people do this ?

Because that's far better than reaching out to a dog you don't know with the palm of your hand. A) To some dogs an open hand like that means a slap's coming and B) if a dog snap's at your hand there'll be less permanent handicap if the back of your hand gets bitten than the palm.

>bouncing their hands up and down on their backs ( again why do this ?

It's to see how flexible the pasterns and hocks are.
:)

bouncing their hands up and down on their backs ( again why do this ?) It's to see how flexible the pasterns and hocks are

Can't that be seen in movement it can in all the breeds I have

Had one judge hurt one of my cavaliers doing the press the bum down bit, told me he was testing his back legs :O

>Can't that be seen in movement

It depends on the size of the ring. If there's only room for about three paces, then no, it can't be seen in the movement. If there's room for the dog to really get into its stride, then yes.

I guess in smaller breeds it's also done to check the patellas are reasonably secure.
:)

Since when are rings so small for GSDs, Beardies & BCs that they can only take two or three paces ? My breeds include these & not just the cavaliers

BTW you can also see slipping patellas in movement much better than on the table How do I know ? because I know one Champion Cavalier who has Slipping Patellas(in the line)whose movement shows this but it gets put up because of the owner/handler. One all rounder threw it out & later asked the handler when it would be having the operation as the rear movement was terrible ! & I didn't know that all cavaliers have to have their patellas checked either

>Since when are rings so small for GSDs, Beardies & BCs that they can only take two or three paces ?

Not my breeds, so I don't know. But it's not uncommon for dalmatians to have such a small ring that they can't get into their stride, especially at open shows. Literally, three strides up, turn, three strides back and you're crashing into the judge. Classes of 28 at champ shows isn't uncommon - in a ring the same size as the toy poodles get!

Rings 16  foot square then never seen one that small at a champ show will have a look tomorrow at Leeds

There are also large entries of BCs at Ch shows too

But that does not explain why IMHO a judge has to manhandle dogs in the ring & pushing down a well muscled dog on its rear end is manhandling & nothing to do with testing the rear hock joints or the front pasterns

The judge at Leeds in the import register bounced up and down the backend of the dogs yesterday.  I'm glad that 90% of the Spanish there weren't the wary type as they can be because luckily none of them were bothered by this, so even top judges do this :d

I always give my hand to the dog before going over them, a lot of dogs when they first come would be very unhappy not to scent you first and you to go straight into going over them. 

>so even top judges do this <

doesn't mean it is right tho'

As for the miniscle rings at Crufts Sorry if you think they are big you have never tried to handle a trotting dog like a GSD Beardie etc if you had you would say they are far too small

>Sorry if you think they are big you have never tried to handle a trotting dog

Yes, of course dalmatians don't trot, do they? :rolleyes:

How can you say that the rings at champ shows are big enough for a dog to move, when they're always smaller than the Crufts rings, which you say are miniscule?

You must go to different champ shows to me then as the rings for GSDs BCs & Beardies(& cavaliers)at crufts are never big enough Three paces in you individual & you hit the side of the ring with the pastoral breeds & not big enough for the size of Cavalier entries

I haven't seen a full class of dalmatians gaiting around the ring for prolonged periods The first once or twice at the beginning of the class but after all the individuals are done do they really gait them again for any length of time ? I watched a few classes last year at Leeds & never saw it happen maybe that judge didn't do it

>Three paces in you individual & you hit the side of the ring with the pastoral breeds

That's exactly what I've been saying about general champ show rings.

There certainly isn't the amount of moving that there was when I started showing - then it was twice round the ring in both directions before the individual judging started, then several individual up-and-downs (the rings are generally too small for proper triangles), then the whole class was moved several times (both directions) again. Nowadays there's a couple of circuits (anti-clockwise only, unless it's one of the 'old school' judges) and only the individual movement. When I've seen cavalier judging they're barely moved at all - once round the ring seems to be enough, with no up-and-down at all.

A dalmatian specialist judge at Midland Counties one year had the entire class running round as he gradually selected his shortlist. It took about 8 or 9 circuits of a reasonably roomy ring.

Must have been a long time since you watched cavalier judging as the norm is at least  twice around as a class Then an individual triangle & at lest away & back once & a lot of specializts will do a pick & then move them again & again I know at Border union they didn't move them much but it was 30+ C & there was no shade & we did twice as a class & then the individual triangle & away & back.

I don't think anyone moves as much as the GSDs of the international type I once walked/gaited my dog for over an hour(as they do in Germany)to win a class in a ring the size of half a football pitch now that is the correct size of ring for a GSD & I showed my dog all on my own under the top German judge.

There is double handling in lots of breeds but most of it is very covet & not just working/pastoral breeds either

I last watched cavalier judging at an Open show at Ryton last year. That's when I noticed how little they were moved.
:)

I don't do many Open shows for that very reason most of the judges are not Cavalier specialists & rarely move the dogs enough & whoever it was didn't even bother to send in a critique to Our Dogs so I cannot comment on whether they were a Cavalier exhibitor

Even at our most local Open show the Chihuahua judge did move the dogs quite a lot, perhaps it was for my benefit as she gave the BOB to a lame bitch(she always favours her off foreleg)

I got critized by Rough Collie exhibitors the last time I judged Border Collies, Beardies & GSDs for moving them too much & only putting up dogs that didn't move with their heads up !(the exhibitors didn't complaint except for one whose BC could have produced a nice knitted jumper with it's rear movement ;) )

They are a toy Spaniel & as such require good movement that shows reach & drive after all they should the dual purpose dogs companions & flushing & retrieval of woodcock

Yes, have a look at the ring sizes. Remember, a dog doesn't get into it's proper stride instantly - it takes a couple of steps before it can stride out, and them when it sees the other end of the ring approaching it naturally slows down to avoid an accident. The only good ring sizes I've seen are at Crufts. At Open shows rings of 15 or 16 feet long unfortunately are the norm.

And don't forget, other dogs and handlers in the ring take up space, even if the judge askes them to squish over at the sides to leave room!
:)

Glad I no longer show the breed as I wouldn't have an owner for them to look for (sounds a lot like double handling) and any bait or attractant thrown (a personal hate of mine which has many exhibitors crying for baiting to not be allowed) I wouldn't be able to find it to pick up. 

Also glad we don't follow them or Boxers in the ring as it is bait on the ground (even if it has been picked up) that makes my breed get their noses down and it can only be convinced up with something even better in your hand :D

This sort of attraction can be very offputting to other exhibits and the breed that next comes in the ring.  If baiting were to be banned because of such methods then our breed and many other free standing ones would need to be stacked, giving the static look that is so alien to the breed whose breed standard calls for 'Bold and energetic'.

The comments on here just confirm why I don't train my pups at ringcraft - NOT all breeds are the same and most of the sensitive, wary breeds do not like the 'sniff the hand first' approach, ( many of the sight hound breeds also hate this :(). Many breeds have intrinsic breed characteristics which are highly desirable to the breed specialist judge - in my breed it just happens to be expression and alertness - handlers quickly learn the tricks that will produce the best results for their dogs or else go home cardless :(.

In answer to your questions , yes most owners are outside of the ring with the dogs handled by someone else , the judge stands in front of the line up to assess the head qualities and expression of the breed then moves round to the side to get an overall impression of body shape/angulation etc. The ideal is a good height at the withers and a short back these qualities are helped by the dog 'picking up' the front assembly and tightening the back muscles when it is shown in the continental method. I guess it is a kind of double handling but one done without any intrusive noises, movements etc ( unlike other breeds !).

I'm sorry that you feel the need to test any breeds 'rear suspension' by bouncing it's back end up and down - I can certainly tell simply by watching a dog move ;).

Yvonne

>I guess it is a kind of double handling

But the KC bans all double handling. Please don't tell me it's creeping into breeds other than the usual suspects ;).

There is no Kennel Club regulation forbidding owners from standing around the ringside - the dogs are simply trained to look for their owners from within the ring . We do not whistle/run around or shout the dogs name. Belgians tend to be VERY focussed on their owners and will watch them intently from within the ring, arching their necks and lifting their ears right up on top of their skull - just observe the difference when you next see them being judged and you'l see what I mean :D

Yvonne

It's odd how the techniques differ - I know people who can't watch their dog from the ringside for that very reason - the dog's looking for them and not concentrating on showing himself off! They generally have to go and wait on the benches where the dog can't see or smell them!
:)

"Under Kennel Club Regulation F(1)17.h. the attracting of the attention of exhibits by any method from outside the ring is prohibited. It is the duty of the Judge, Steward or Show management noticing such attraction to require that it cease. The Regulation is there for a purpose - to safeguard against injury, to preserve health and safety and to ensure dogs are not disadvantaged in any way."

Don't know if it has changed recently though as this was a couple of years back!

That could be why people go and wait on the benches till the class is over - to avoid breaking that regulation. If their presence attracts the dog's attention it's clearly a breach of that rule.

I often handle a Terv bitch for friends - they have her as a pet only (although she's got 4 CCs, a couple of RCCs and two Group 3 places :P ) and don't wish to handle themselves.  They can't be allowed to be outside the ring when she's shown simply because her "exuberance" would take over and she'd pull and yap to get at them :D  She can be baited but will also look out of the ring for her family - who are always at the tents etc - if I say "watch" .   She's not being double handled but she is naturally "outside attracted" by virtue of the fact that she's nosey!   One time they came back too soon when she was still having a critique written and she lunged so hard the lead snapped so she was swiftly reunited with the clan :D

Yvonne is quite correct in her description of how best a BSD will be shown and as well as the dog above, I've shown a male for a friend who's not been at the show at all and can still have the dog looking out of the ring even although he knows nobody else at the show ;)  Each breed has it's own traits and characteristics and so the way of presenting them at their best will differ - as Yvonne said, with the BSD it can be the difference between making a dog look very good and making the same dog look great just because it is showing off not only the desired head carriage and body outline but also the attitude of the breed.  Incidentally I've always shown all but one of my own dogs in the ring and more often than not I'm the only owner/handler in the class :P  The current youngster I'm showing is attracted by anything outside the ring that moves - so she's "double handled" by other exhibitors / dogs / visitors / even KC Officials who are all innocently going about their business <LOL>

regards, Teri :)