Is this allowed??  I have just had the heartbreaking experience of looking at around 60 pups :-( in a large puppy selling shop.  Some of these dogs were said to be KC reg.  I thought that KC rules specified that you could not hand your pups over to a third party to sell?  I am DEFO no expert on KC rules so is this something I have made up or is this true?  They had American Cocker Spaniels for £675 KC Reg.

Dont ask me why I put myself through the hurt of looking at these pups I think in my own way I want to make sure they all look okay and not destressed. 

You're right, the KC Code of Ethics (see #9) forbids the selling of KC registered pups to pet shops.

If people went 'undercover' and made enquiries about these pups, asking to see a copy of the pedigree and registration document, making a note of the breeder's name and reporting them to the KC, I'm sure some action could be taken. If it's not reported to them the KC can't do anything.

Do you think it would be worth me doing something about it??? 

You could ask (casually) to see the registration documents to see who the sire and dam were ... if you fancy playing at being a Secret Agent! It can be fun. ;) The sooner the KC know, the sooner they can act.
:)

Okie dokes I shall go tomorrow and see if I can see the papers for one of the american cocker spaniels, hopefully they will believe me.  Do I just need the dam and sire pedigree names to report it to the kc? 

The more detail you can remember (I wouldn't recommend taking notes!) the better.

And keep your head - don't get emotional and be tempted to actually get one! Good luck! It needs people to take action to get this trade stopped. Every little helps!

You need the KC numbers

When this happened a while back the breeders were banned by the KC & the outlet set up their own register !

I wonder if this "pet shop" has set up its own registration, do you mean the outlet set up KC registration or dog lovers?

The thing I am worried about is me ending up with an American Cocker Spaniel, cos as hard as I try I do tend to get emotional and if I touch it it will be mine.  I will be tough!!

I reacon they will refuse to show me the registration but you can but try.

I understand Dog Lovers was set up by a pet shop owner when his supply of KC puppies was stopped. Most people think all registries are equal, and that's what these places rely upon. :( You may find that in the end they aren't KC registered - if that's the case, you need to get in touch with Trading Standards because of the false advertising.

This Store is selling Pet lovers, KC and mongrels!!!! I think they would sell their grandmother if she grew a bit of fur

A friend of mine did this a few months ago and whilst the shop owner was serving another customer ( ME ) ...she took pics of the document on her camera phone ......it is now in the hands of the KC

Oh good one Inca, well done!!!

Marianne

Just get the parents KC names, as there are a number of AC owners here who may know the breeder or owner of the said dogs. 

Okay Im scared but I will do it, dont shout at me if I end up bringing home a dog.

Take someone with you for moral support (and to slap you when you get tempted!).

My mums gonna come with me and believe it or not shes worse!!  I think these people are a bit suspect of me anyway as today I told them off for having a group of 4 staffy pups shivering in their prison they are kept in because the window was wide open!  I will let you know tomorrow what happens.

Look genuinely interested, say you wanted your Mum to see them but you will need your OH to come back with you as he is paying :)

I like your devious mind Enfielrotts!!  What excuse can I use as to why I want to see the pedigree papers?  I have just been looking up pictures of American Cocker Spaniels and I dont think these are pedigrees the ones in this store look like they have been crossed with Shitz su.  Maybe they are just different.

So what excuse am I using to see the pedigree papers?

Say that you have been looking for an AC for some time, ask to see the paper work as your friend has this breed so you were wondering if it could be possible they were related?

Or just casually ask 'is it possible to see the paperwork', if they ask why say you just want to make sure these pups come with all the advertised bit's as your OH won't let you spend £600 + on a pup that does nto have these bits - pretend you don't know much about the whole thing, say paperwork as though you are talking about a car because many people who are not too clued up on it all don't actually know what to look for, they just know they shoudl receive some sort of documents - if you seem a little unaware they should be less suspicious, also get all illy over the pups, if you look mad they will suspect LOL!

I have also sent you a PM :)

>Say that you have been looking for an AC for some time.

No offence Enfield, but this may make the owner guess what is going on, any one who has been looking for a pup for a long time, will, or should, know all about pet shops, BYB's, and puppy farmers in general :D

I have never met or spoken to one of these 'people', are they suspisious(sp?) of everyone who walks through the door? Or just people who seem to know a bit about dogs?

Hi,  have only just caught up with this discussion as computer has been away agian to be fixed.  IF this is one of the North WEst based pet supermarkets, we are told from time to time that they have American Cocker pups in - the last ones we had details of were DLRC registered.  A lady brought one across for us to look at, as having bought him, and then looked up the breed she was worried he was not pure bred.  We gave him a quick hairdo, and he was very definelty an Am Cocker, if not a very good one.  He came with the added bonus of flease, lice and worms too!    Please let me know how you go on, we would love to get hold of whoever is selling our breed to these places (and we do have an idea of at least one kennel who may be doing so).  I can never understand why on earth people would actually pay substantially more for a poorly bred and questionably reared pup from one of these places than a beautifully bred pup who have been wonderfully reared from an excellent breeder, for much les £££ - the general public are a strange animal!
bye
Gwen

Impulse Gwen.

Gwen I have sent you a PM I hope you dont mind.

I would definitly agree with Sandrah, impulse. Also I would think that a lack of knowledge comes into it. I would hope that anyone who is aware of the awful conditions these dog's/animals are kept in, would find somewhere else to get their pet from.

When we started looking for a pup, the first place I looked was the Loot, now I wouldn't even waste my time looking there! Many people decide they want a dog, (or any pet) and they will either look at rescue centres, or look in the papers/on line ad's. They don't know where the ONLY place to get any pet/s from is people who want the best for that specific pet/breed. :(

I think part of the problem is that there is a market out there consisting of people that you and I would never sell a puppy to Gwen.  I know I have taken the trouble to politely explain to puppy enquirers that they do not have a home or life style suitable to give a dog an acceptable quality of life and I have been told, in no uncertain terms in return, that they do not accept that judgement.  If these sort of people have the attitude that a dogs quality of life is not going to get in the way of their desire to own one then I am sure that when they draw a blank from other responsible breeders they will have no qualms about getting a puppy from wherever they can and hang the consequences for that puppy, its parents or even their future prospects of having a healthy pet because, of course, they live in the here and now of getting their hands on a cute little puppy as easily as possible.

The other sad event of the day, a family at this shop were looking for a dog and the assistant was showing them different breeds, which I think is weird as shouldnt they have researched their breed of choice beforehand!! However, the assistant was showing them a cocker spaniel and another breed I couldnt see what it was. The family walked out with a Boarder Collie pup, which I think is a breed that needs alot of handling and experience.  The assistant also said let me check he is old enough to go today as it is illegal for us to let him go before 8 weeks, how old are these dogs when they are arriving at this place?

I agree Isabel.  We continually see enquiries from obviously unsuitable homes, and although we try to explain that this isn't an ideal situation for a puppy, there are always the replies "If you want one, then go and get one!"  Responsible breeders wouldn't place a puppy in an obviously unsuitable home.
I remember some years ago, I booked one of my breed (not my breeding) in for grooming.  A handsome, if nervous nearlt a year old pup was handed to me and the man burst into tears.  He explained that the dog had bitten one of his children and we wanted him bathed and groomed so that he could advertise to re-home him.  The breeder wasn't interested in helping, so I asked a few questions.  The story went like this........
Husband had angina and didn't work, wife had previously been hospitalised having had 2 nervous breakdown and 4 children under 5 years old.  This family were struggling to get through each day and needed a puppy like they needed a hole in the head!  Wife couldn't cope so shut the 6 month old pup in the garage.  Children went to hide in his bed - no adult supervision - and the dog had bitten him!:(  I groomed the dog out, including knots around his sensitive bits, and the dog was actually no problem at all - just in the wrong home!

I heard a very sad story yesterday.  A couple who both work full-time and are out of the house from 8am until 6pm are about to purchase a working cocker puppy.  The puppy will be kept in a crate all day and the woman is taking some time off work to start with (10 days) and hopes to have the toilet training cracked in that time.  The expect the puppy to be fine with somebody coming in at 10 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon to let it out for its business.  When asked if perhaps one of them could go part-time or come home at lunchtime this was not an option.  They plan to do agility with the dog and the brother in law will take it out shooting once in a while.  They didn't know that puppies can chew furniture and a WC would go nuts if left all day in a crate.  They were advised of the behavioural problems and seemed to be defensive when it was pointed out to them about the pup's welfare.  I just hope that they decide not to get the puppy after their discussion with a professional.  And this puppy is coming from a breeder!  It beggars belief.  This breeder is not back street, they actually trial their own dogs.  Its a pity they don't try and get suitable homes for the ones that they believe don't meet the standard!!

It's always horrible when you hear stories about puppies being treated like this and the abuse of crates to stop the furniture being wrecked through frustration but when it is your own breed and you know them well, it makes it worse.  The worst thing about working cockers is the fact that they are small cute dogs and people don't understand that they are bred to work and, if they don't work or have a fulfilling life, they are absolutely miserable.  That goes for most breeds too, not just working cockers. 

Annie

Who knows what they've told the breeder? This is the problem that arises when anyone assumes they have a 'right' to have a dog (it's not a right, it's a privilege which has to be earned), even though their circumstances are entirely unsuitable.

I know, you are right!!  I personally feel very privileged to have my dogs.  They are the light of my life and have changed my life completely - for the better!  I no longer bother about things like - new clothes - because I know they will be covered in mud as soon as we are out in the field. :d   Wouldn't have it any other way though.

Annie

And ignorance :(

it is illegal for a pet shop to sell pedigree registered puppies or kittens inform the police, kennel club and the local council. a pet shop owner may sell crosses. you may find the shop owner is the breeder, and thats how they are getting away with it. the local council will take away his pet shop and livestock licence.if your council is anything like mine you will have to check up on them that they have done what you asked and would be better to ask to speak to the lincencing office or person. also the rspca/ sspca maybe able to help.

Sorry ikkledevil, but you have your facts worng.  As long as the pet shop is licensed it is (sadly)perfectly legal for them to sell pups, and it makes no difference if they are pedigree or not.  Nor will the Kennel Club be interested in the pet shop, however, any breeder who sells a litter to be sold on again is breaking KC rules, and the KC can deal with them.  RSPCA will only get involved if ill treatment is obvious.  Although they jump on many bandwagons, they have strangley chosen to stay away from this very important welfare issue.
This particular pet shop is in England, and is fully versed in all the ins and outs of the legislation.  They are acting legally, although in my opinon unethically, and certainly not in the best interests of either pups or prospective owners.
bye
Gwen