We have a pond in the garden medium sized which we had fish in until the neighbour put their fence up. We thought they were all dead so when we found Goldie (the goldfish) we were shocked and rushed out and bought him a 2ft tank and accessories. Then we decided he was lonely and bought a Shubunkin(sp) Sparkle, they are both about 10cm long, well today i was clearing the pond out as we are going to fill it on and i found un-named possible ghost koi thing. All three at the moment are in my tank the sort from Pets At Home is this big enough for the three or should i go out and get a bigger one for them?

Consider the size of the fish fully grown, it will help you decide on how big a tank you need.

Bazza

I thought they grew to the size of their tank/pond etc. But im not sure on whats over-crowding they live in the kitchen at the moment if we have a bigger tank they'll have to claim a new bit of space.

Its a common fallacy that they grow to the size of their accomodation, they will grow until they finish growing ;)  If you intend to keep them in a tank then you'll need very good filtration, goldfish are really heavy polluters and KOI even more so, For these fish I'd recommend a 3ft tank as minimum and the Koi can only be a temporary resident.

there's plenty of info on coldwater fish and setting up and cycling a tank here

http://www.aquariacentral.com/

they also have a forum :D :D

Good luck with your fish :) :)

my ghost died :( he didnt even have a name i guess its my fault he died for fishing him out the pond.

I'm sorry about your ghost.  Try not to feel bad as if you were halfway through clearing out the pond you couldn't have done anything apart from putting him in a tank.  Unfortunately fish can be very sensitive to even quite minor environmental changes.  I keep tropicals so I don't know too much about coldwater fish but I can give you the calculation for working out stocking levels.  To calculate the capacity of your tank in gallons the sum is

(length x depth x width) x 6.25 (all measurements in feet)

The recommended maximum stock level is 1 inch of fish per gallon.  Remember to use their adult size (don't count the tail). 

Also bear in mind that the tank won't be completely full and there will be some displacement due to substrate, etc. so I'd probably subtract about 10% from the volume you get from the calculation.

For example if your tank is 2'x1'x1' then it can hold 12.5 gallons.  Allowing for displacement actual volume is probably about 11.25 gallons which translates to about 11 inches of fish (nearly 25cm).

I've had to guess at the depth and width of your tank but if I was correct or not far off then it's fine at the moment for 2 10cm fish (although obviously the bigger the better) but as they grow you may need to upgrade.  Goldfish can reach about 45cm (although granted this is unusual).  I'm not sure what the maximum length for a shubunkin is but someone here will probably know.

Apologies for the long post, hope it is of some use.

Regards

M-C

p.s.  Sorry about the imperial values - I don't know how to work it out in litres/cm!  

They should be fine for now, but they will need a bigger tank for sure.  sorry bout the koi :(

The inch per gallon rule is good for many fish, but with golds and shubs you want to give more room really - they are extremely messy fish for their size!!

A typical gold will reach around 10" adult size, up to 12"; shubs are about the same, some bigger.  A good general rule for adult golds/shubs is 20 gallons for the first fish, and another 10 for every fish after that - so you'd want them in a 30 gallon minimum when they're adults (that's about a 48" x 12" x 15"), more is always prererable though.  For now, they're fine where they are, so long as you keep it nice and clean :)

When you're cleaning the filter, make sure you clean it in water you've taken from the tank - there are bacteria growing on the sponge that break down's the fishes' waste, and untreated tap water kills them.

What else... feed a little once a day to keep waste to a minimum, and they should thrive :D and good on you for saving them from the nasty-sounding pond!

Hi
I would recommend you clean your pond out, fill it with water, add some plant life and most importantly add an aerating weed. If you fill it with tap water let it stand for a min of 2 weeks before reintroducing the fish due to the chemicals found in our water.

You don't need a filter system if you get the balance right and it's the balance that's important. Clear ponds stress fish out as they can not hide from threats. Stress is a large killer in the fish world as stress will increase the chance of an infection or a disease setting in. Filters also remove all the good bacteria as well as the bad and you will never have a perfect balance with one.

Fish will only grow to the environment they are in and this can be confirmed through the Environment Agency. The following factors will decide the growth rate of your fish ie: amount of water, amount of food and the amount of other fish. My lake is full of carp and due to the high numbers and the environment they are in they have stopped growing and only reached around 7lb on average where really they should grow to 30lbs plus. Most commercial fisheries have this problem unfortunately.  We also have goldfish in the lake where people have decided to release them and they are huge compared to the ones in small garden ponds. Stunted fish growth is a major concern to lake owners and many fail to understand the individual situation of their fisheries.

Depending on the depth of your pond in the winter it may be best to remove the Shubunkin as they are not hardy fish. Very cold water will kill them.

Koi need very large ponds to do well in and like other members of the carp family are at their happiest when they are able to swim hard, jump and have as much room as possible. Your Koi will have died because of 2 main reasons, stress on the handling part and the sudden change in water temperature/balance.

It is sad that many garden centres and shops sell fish including river species without knowing enough about the particular fish. Think of them as a puppy farm. Even Barbel ( a river fish )which need clean running water are being sold now and the only loser is the fish. 

I have a new pond in my garden (currently surrounded by a very scenic sheep fence to protect from youngest pup) and it has been full of water since May.  I don't have a filter but do have a flowform for aeration.  The water is clearish but you can't see to the bottom.  My youngest son arrived home from the fair with a fish and we decided to risk it and put him in the pond.  Two weeks later he was still alive so we put two more (from the garden centre) in as well.  For a couple of days they zoomed around at great speed but now they can't be seen.  Do you think they could be lurking at the bottom?  The pond has 1000 litres and is 4' deep at the deepest point.  It has some good plants growing in it, thanks to the sheep fencing keeping dogs out! (they ripped up the first lot).

We have been feeding them, and the food disappears but there are lots of frogs in there too.

The fish have been seen trying to jump UP the waterfall!  I am a little worried they've jumped out of the water and the cat has eaten them!!

Hi
The waterfall is a great idea as it adds oxygen to the water and like the rivers when the weather is warm and oxygen levels are low many fish will more into weirs where the movement of water over the steps adds oxygen to the water. Some jump to clean parasites from their lungs but I think the movement of water in your pond has made them happy and that's why they are jumping, just playing.
If your fish are sucking on the surface for long periods that is a good sign that they need more oxygen.

I would think they are hiding from you and it sounds like you have some good weed growth and they will be feeding of the life found on the plants. If it's an old pond the bottom will have a covering of silt and is perfect for creatures that fish love to eat to breed in. Goldfish will eat for most parts from the bottom but will come up and feed if food levels are low.
Frogs are fine, frog spawn is a great source of food for your fish.

Try looking for them at first light or dusk when they became active. On hot clear sky days fish tend to hide away unless the waters cold and they are soaking up the warmth. Fish have feeding patterns, when anglers fish my lake in the day the noise and movement keeps the fish down and once the dark sets in they became active and feed. 

Thanks for that Minipeace.  It's a new pond, not an old one, I started building it last summer and clean water went in in May.  There was some silt in the bottom and a coating around the edge, it got cleaned out properly when youngest dog dug up the first lot of pond plants which is when we discovered a good quantity of wild life.  I had imported frogspawn and some newts (no, not great crested ones!) and they seem to be doing well.  The plants are growing well and the ferns, etc around the perimeter are thriving.  The flowform is a bit more than a waterfall as it swooshes the water from side to side to increase aeration, the sound is wonderful and so relaxing to listen to.

I am sure the little chaps are hiding but I will look out for them later on.

If the filter removes bacteria then it's the wrong sort of filter; I use no chemical methods in my pond at all, my filter has bioballs (plastic ball thingies) and sponge - on this, beneficial bacteria grow that break ammonia into nitrite, and nitrite into nitrate.  These bacteria are desirable.  Of course, if a pond is large enough and you take things slowly enough (and have enough plants!!), then a filter can be unnecessary, but when one is used it should never remove good bacteria - only encourage them.  Providing there aren't dead spots (areas of poor water circulation) in a pond, bad bacteria shouldn't be an issue.

Jacky it sounds like you've a lovely pond. I love sitting down the lake too, not just dangling a float but feeding the ducks and watching the carp and roach topping. We've even got a pair of otters that have taken up residency which is a lovely sight and a few very friendly robins that pinch your stewed wheat when fishing :)
The pond in my back garden has just frogs and newts and is now owned by Bruce my Newf :D

Hi,

We keep Koi and run a Koi business,im afraid filters do not remove bacteria they remove debris and amonia and nitrite .
You need good bacteria to do this removal process which why you need a good filter system.Goldfish are pretty much bombproof unlike Koi.

Briony :-)

Mary-Caroline,

The 1" per gallon stocking list only works with tropicals under 4" .  Bigger fish need much more room because of their larger body mass per inch ;) and coldwater fish need even more room because they require more oxygen than tropical fish.  Are you really saying that you would put a full grown Oscar in a 2ft tank?? simply because he will physically fit in??  that would be truly unfair to the fish  :(  
Goldfish are better equated with larger Cichlids, they need plenty of room and cool well oxygenated water, the higher the temperature (living room temperature) the greater their demand for oxygen.

Perhaps it's something to do with the name Bruce!  My cocker Bruce is the pond-freak in my house too!

Hi,

Also fish do not jump to clean parasites from their lungs,fish jump for the odd fly more likely due to lack of oxygen ,a waterfall may not be enough to add enough oxygen as it depends on air pressure,temp size of pond,number of fish
Warmer the temp the less oxygen water can hold.
To get rid off any parasites you need specialist advice for the right treatments,do not rely on petshops as their knowledge is very limited and often give incorrect advice.Seek specialist Koi business  or a serious koi hobbyist who know what they are talking about :-)

Briony

Hi Briony

Heres a link to just one site for you.

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/koipond/parasitic_disorders.html

Please note the Gill Flukes (Dactylogyrus) will cause your fish to jump.

Perhaps this might help as well.
Jumping- This behavior might suggest the fish is suffering from parasites, or even poor water conditions.  When the pH is dropping fish will jump because the water is irritating to their skin.  So the first thing is to check the water conditions.  If they check out fine than you would want to consider parasites.  Flukes especially can cause jumping.  So always establish water conditions and then treat for parasites. 

The SVC (Spring viremia of carp) should be a main concern to you as well. As yet the Environment Agency are still trying to discover the way this is carried from one water to another and is the worst disease to hit fisheries all over the UK. Even with dip tanks for nets/carp sach ect... the disease is still increasing and the worst case is 80% of carp within a lake will die. Please be aware of this as the EA fish farm at Colverton was hit with another disease and lost what is reported a million fish and is likely to be closed for possible 3 years. If your business picks this up the EA will stop all stockings and close down the the use of infected ponds/lakes and fish farms.

Hope this helps.

Sorry I should have added the Calverton fish farm was hit by Tench Rhabdovirus.
If you have any concerns please contact your local EA office and they will help you to improve and to take action to avoid such diseases.
I struggle when I see Koi kept in ponds that are far to small. It would be like me keeping my Newf in a 10ft by 10ft room for the rest of his life. Like all living things they are not a commodity but a living and breathing creature that should be respected.
We use to supply the EA with fish from my lake to help other fisheries or for stocking of rivers but after the parasite infection which was found on the lungs of the carp we can no longer supply them and all this is down to just one person stocking their goldfish into our lake. The EA netted and confirmed this with dead samples back at their labs.
One of the signs of a parasite attack was the jumping of fish which luckily I recognized and acted on. Perhaps having over 30 years experience helped me as fish body behaviour is similar to dogs in some ways.

One last bit of info to help you is the legislation laws.
Before you introduce any fish into any water you must be in possession of a written consent from the Environment Agency under section 30 of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975. This requirement applies to all waters except fish farms in England and Wales, including rivers, canals, reservoirs, lakes and ponds, whether public or private. If the fish intended for introduction are not native to the British isles you will also need a licence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and/or a licence to keep under the Import of Live Fish Act 1980, in addition to consent under Section 30.
As Koi are not native this could apply and the EA are slowly improving the situation with prosecutions.
These laws are set to protect the fish and their welfare and to improve both lake and river stocks in the UK.
 

That implies you're not allowed to put goldfish into a garden pond.

You even need a fishing licence to fish your garden pond.
Its a very hard one to fully understand but the EA are more concerned with Koi, Ghost and the larger fish species as many fisheries are refused a licence for non native fish and have been buying from local sources to stock their fisheries. Mixing of fish creates a poor balance and interbreeding/ hybrid fish are not good news if you are trying to maintain native fish. Hybrids develop new diseases and problems that the EA have to work against. Its got to such proportions that they are now acting with a strong hand.
One good example of non native species is the Signal crayfish which is now spreading all over the country and destroying our native cray. These signals eat plants, fish and all life and will survive all types of water including lakes. It's a good example of what damage is done by poor understanding of the environment and non native species.

Oh yes goldfish, I've got millions of pounds worth of stock in my lake and if this law was followed or understood perhaps the goldfish would not have ended up in the lake and I would not have lost fish.
There are many other types of non native species from crabs to terrapins to mink that are put into our lovely countryside by people who just do not know or understand what damage their actions do.

Here's a link to the EA's pdf file explaining more about stocking and laws involved.

http://www.efishbusiness.co.uk/formsandguides/eStocking.pdf

I hope this helps, if you do notice any one releasing fish or taking them from rivers or lakes or if you find dead fish or have any concerns the EA hot lines are

Enquiries: 08708 506 506

Enquiries (non-UK calls): 00 44 1709 389 201

Floodline: 0845 988 1188

Incident hotline: 0800 807060

Wed address is   http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/

Even if you see a swan in trouble please give them a ring, they are there to help and not just to up hold the law.

Hi,

We are talking about 2 different things here,you are talking about commercial lakes and garden ponds DO NOTcome into this catagory.

You do not need a licence for your garden pond.
Dealers need a licence to sell certain fish eg sturgeon and grass carp,but the customer does not need a licence to put them in their ponds.

As for Koi, as long as the filtration is adequate ,and good water quality you not have any problems.

you should see the stocking levels in Japan how they keep and raise Koi they very rarely have problems and fish certainly not stressed due to their excellent water quality there fish are second to none and are absolutely stunning.

We ourselves only have high grade japanese koi for our customers comming directly in from Japan and we too have years of experience ;-)

Briony :-)

Koi carp certainly do not jump to* clear* their lung of parasites they might jump

because they have an irritation from them ,or lack of oxygen,poor water quality,or to catch a fly.

Also fish have gills NOT lungs ;-)

Briony

Hi,

Also our main display pond is over 6' ft deep perfectly crystal clear with the Koi absolutely not stressed whatsoever for people keeping koi in their garden you will need a good filtration syatem it will be extremely difficult if not impossible to get good enough water quality to keep koi healthy.

Our quranteen vats are also crystal clear and koi are thriving.
Also its very adviseable to put bottom drains in koi ponds waste of time putting any plants in a koi pond as they will shred the lot within minutes.

Goldfish are pretty bombproof howevr a reasonable filter ,don't over stock,add bottom drain with good oxygen and you won't go far wrong and yes your fish will be okay in crystal clear water .

In the mountains of Japan the koi are first raised in large mud ponds no need for filtration as their montain water which fills and leaves in pond in perfect for koi,they are them taken to growing on vats with crystal clear water ,some are returned to the mud pond for growing on ,some left in the clear vats with a filtration system but obviosly there water is alreday neat perfect when fill their vats with the collected mountain water.
The mud ponds are also large enough to retain oxygen which the water is rich in flowing down the montains into them.

Briony

Well you know what they say, you can never win an argument with a woman :)
I've shown you the law from a government site and I would be surprised if none of your clients never needed one. It must be a very small business I take it.
I think I will carry on following the advise from the EA ( my lake is private and not commercial as it once was and yes the EA still have to give me written consent ).
I must confess I did type lungs, well corrected but I was just surprised you do not know about the relationship of a parasite and fish behaviour. How you think of fish is not how I think of them which is a shame.
Good luck, I hope your business continues to grow.

Hi actually we are very clued up on fish health and behaviour and we often end up advising the general public the correct info from people who clearly dont know enough about keeping koi heallthy and how to keep them properly.The local vets also call on our help because of our expertise in fish health ;-)

Briony :-)

What i mean't was general public often are given poor or incorrect advice from others who think they know how koi should be kept and how to treat infections and diseases when clearly their knowledge in the subject is very limited,we are often asked to then give them the correct advice which why the local vets get intouch with us.

Briony

Fully agree with you, they are in deed :)
Have you thought about working along side the EA? perhaps as a consultant. If your interested one chap John, head of microdiversity ( a really nice chap ) would be able to help you.
If we can find more out more on SVC it would be great and why the Tench disease has mutated and is attacking barbel as well as carp.
They are nice chaps and it would be nice if we can gather as much info as possible on the two diseases I mentioned. They both attack Koi too so it might be worth you giving it a go.
I'm not a bad chap just passionate about it.

Hi,

Unfortunately we just dont have anymore time to give my Partner is hopefully going back to university to do 2nd degree,we also have 5 children one ill at present ,2 business one (koi) and our showdogs.
We would love to get more involved but simply just can't to us the KHV VIRUS is more concerning.

Briony :-)

Hi Briony

Sorry to hear about the illness, sending a hug and I wish a speedy recovery. Bruce sends one too.

Hi,

Thanks he is slowly improving hes been in hospital :-)

Briony :-)