I have just noticed an advert in Your dog magazine about a litter of Golden Pups for sale. It clearly states "smokers need not apply"
Now that would rule me out of getting one straight away and lots of other owners on here (she says lighting another ciggie)

What is anyones else view on this ? I must admit I do try to make a conscious effort to have the house well ventilated and to try not to subject the dogs to a foul fuggy atmosphere. It's my choice to smoke and I am aware of the possible health implications but my dogs have no say in the matter - they are at my mercy. I don't smoke when children are here to visit so should I take the same care around my dogs ?

Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done on longevity of non smokers dogs to smokers dogs ? I did have a GSD who developed cancer (intestine) and died just before his 6th birthday and there has always been a bit of a nag at the back of my mind that smoke perhaps didn't help.

I hope this can be discussed civilly and not turn into a smoker versus non smoker row - I am genuinely interested in peoples views on this.

Sara :)

Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done on longevity of non smokers dogs to smokers dogs ?

Sara, if there has been such a study, and if it showed decreased longevity in smokers' dogs, then my lot haven't read it <she said lighting up another one> :-) .

Seriously though, I sometimes wonder if the modern caring breeder is driving the puppy buyer into the arms of puppy farmers. I'm as guilty as the next, but a little voice at the back of my head keeps murmuring that by the time the breeder has finished telling the puppy buyer about all the conditions of sale, endorsements, contracts and what have you, its a wonder that more of them don't head for the nearest puppy farm.

I have a friend who wanted to buy a puppy. I advised them to get a list from the KC and try all the breed clubs etc and suggested questions to ask to ensure they were buying from a reputable breeder.

They tried 32 breeders but none would sell them a puppy because they had 2 children under 5. Needless to say they were very disillusioned with all the negative phone calls and they ended up buying a puppy from one of the 'multi-breed kennels' that advertise in the local papers. The sort that never tell you what they have but ask what you're looking for.

Whilst I can appreciate that every breeder has the right to sell to whomever they choose many good families are slipping through the net and if smokers are to be added to the list of undesirables then even more good home will fall by the wayside.

Fiona
x x x

Although I personally do not breed puppies, I know I would not allow a puppy to go to a 'smoking home'. I loathe smoke and the damage it can do to your health.

I actually met someone who has twin boys of four years old, with a young cross breed dog that they obtained from a neighbour, because they were refused by Breeders and Rescue Centres with the children being so young. This woman was at the end of her tether, trying to cope with such young children and a boisterous young dog. She did not realise what having a puppy would actually entail, (had visions of 'self obedient loving Andrex type companion'). She recognised her mistake, which sadly was now having a bad effect on the family generally, and the young dog was quickly becoming a deliquent, with not enough time and the right attention being afforded to him. She will be contacting a Rescue Organisation to help find him a more suitable home.

Those Breeders and other Rescue Centres could foresee the potential problems ahead, they were not just being awkward or difficult. Sadly, there are others who do not take the same precautions to protect puppies/animals generally. Breeders should 'vet' as carefully as possible to the best of their ability, they owe that to the puppies that they have chose to breed.

(In fact if I had a visiting family to view puppies, and the children were in any way obnoxious, my feeling would be if the parents have not made an effort to raise children with respect and good manners - what chance the puppy! - Equally, what chance the puppy with the children)!! - Show them the door.

Denise.

What really concerns me is that the more restrictions good breeders put on the sale of their puppies the more business will go to puppy farmers.

Imagine this scenario :

A couple with 2 young children under the age of 6 are looking for a pupppy. They have always had dogs before they had the children and a lot of their friends have dogs. His mother has got a dog which the children see regularly and the children are very doggy aware. She doesn't work and he runs his own business so sets his own hours.

They obtain a puppy list from the KC and start phoning around. None of the breeders they speak to will agree to them coming to see their puppies because of the ages of the children. Theis family is now very disallusioned with the whole KC puppy list and good breeders because they know that they could provide a very good home to a puppy. They then try the rescue kennels where they are turned down again because of the children. They now only have one place left to try so they call one of the multi breed kennels from the local paper. The breed that they want is available so they make an appointment to go and see the litter. When they get there they start to feel uncomfortable about the situation but decide to buy a puppy anyway. After all they've never got as far as going to a breeders home so maybe the puppies/dams are supposed to be kennelled all the time. Maybe it's not so unusual to have that many different breeds.

A few months later some friends of theirs are looking for a puppy. They talk to the couple about where they got their pup from. It's then that they're told not to bother with the KC list because they'll get turned down by the breeders on the list because they've also got young children. It's suggested that they try this multi breed kennel and see if they have any puppies available. The word soon gets around this group of friends that if they want a puppy they'll have to go to places like this because KC breeders won't touch them because of the ages of their children.

All of a sudden 10 - 15 families have bought a puppy from these multi breed kennels because of one families experience with KC breeders.

I can appreciate the need for breeders to place restrictions of the sale of their puppies but I can also see that these restrictions are pushing more and more prospective owners towards puppy farms. The average buyer doesn't see why they should have to justify themselves to a breeder, they know that they can provide a good home and don't see they should have prove themselves. After all you don't go into a car sales room and get questioned on why you want a particular car so why does that happen why they want a puppy? I know that buying a car is different to buying a puppy but an awful lot of people don't see it that way. They are there to buy a puppy, not be sold one.

JMHO,

Fiona
x x x

Hi everyone,well as I am a heavy smoker, likes the odd drink or 2( maybe 3 even) & has grandkids & step greatgrand kids most under the age of 5 it looks like a lot of people think I shouldn`t have dogs!!!!!LOL.
I always thought pups & kids were meant for each other, they teach kids about responsability, to care for other living bodies,friendship,fun, kindness & lots of other things as well. To me the most important thing would be the pup is going to a loving home & the people are aware of the needs of the pup & are able to provide them.
Christine2

Iam with you on this christine , I never penalise a family with children , I DO like to see the kids with the dogs first though , just to make sure they are dog friendly .
Have been brought up to respect them and thought to be kind to them .
I believe it is one of the things that all babies should be thought as soon as they are able to understand .
,[ Iam waiting for the backlash here :) but I dont care it worked for us] .
I bring the baby to the dog and allow her/him stroke it and if the child trys to grab or pull it is a nooo dont poor doggy . very little effort is needed to teach a baby that , by the time baby is walking there is no hitting or pulling or teasing , or fear.
I feel it is unfair to penalise a man or woman for having children .
So no I have no problems with letting a family have a puppy in most cases
Mari

Hi Marie, thats right,thats what I do, you teach the kids & pups at the same time & if no one allows this to happen then how are they going to learn? If the owners of pup don`t know how, I feel its for me to help & show them.
I would not like to deprive both dogs & kids of all the pleasures that can be gained from growing up together. Don`t you think it also teaches kids about caring & compassion & life? They will see the dog get ill & old & pass away so it must give them some sort of understanding about things. Any way thats my theory!
Christine2

Christine, agree with you Mari and Barbara on this. The breeder won't sell pups to people who smoke in case the dog gets nasal cancer; to people who drink in case they are cruel drunks; to people with children in case they are rough; to poor people in case they can't afford the bills; to people who already have a dog in case it is nasty to the pup; to elderly people in case they die; to people with less than perfect health in case they have to go into hospital; to disabled people in case they can't exercise the dog; to people who have flats/small houses/gardens; to people who work; to people who might lose their job; to people who might get divorced; to people who might get married ................. this breeder is going to be keeping a lot of pups that will then suffer from lack of individual attention!

Hi Sharon ROFLOL
Christine2

The other side of it is feeling guilty when you get one back, for having failed to find that perfect home.

I am sure that a lot of people wouldn't have homed a dog with me either. When I go my first Elkie, I was a lone parent with a toddler and child not yet in school!

My first dog had just died at only 3 1/2. My breeder must have thought me good enough, and the fact that I kept my last dog in spite of Mariage break up, and birth of a new baby must have made her think I could cope, lol!!!

Barbara, I almost didn't get my first Irish Wolfhound :-). I did the research, and by chance the litter I eventually decided on was ready close to Christmas. Ian knew how long I'd been waiting for an IW, so he decided to make the actual arrangements, and of course the idiot 'phoned the breeder and announced that he wanted an IW pup for his wife's Christmas present! It took a bit of fast talking to secure the pup after that :-).

I really think it is taking things to far to refuse a puppy a good home because the buyer smokes.
In that case dont take the dog out in case the petrol and deisol fumes harm them .
I think I would be more worried about fallouts and toxins and all the other atmosherical things out there destroying the air we breathe . Smoking is way down the ladder to me as a danger to animals
I am sorry if I offend by disagreeing , but thats my opinion on the matter . Mari

Mari, never mind petrol & diesel fumes - on the present evidence, the dog is at far greater risk of being killed in a car crash that it is from secondary smoking. So maybe we shouldn't sell pups to people with cars. But then we can't sell to people who don't have cars either, because they can't get to the vet quickly :-).

I'm with you about children too. Some small children can be a menace to dogs and some dogs can be a menace to children but imo there is nothing more natural than a child growing up with a dog or dogs. I know several children who learned to walk by hanging on to a shaggy wolfie or deerhound, and as far as I could see, in each case the four-legged walking aid was rather proud of itself even if the child did tug a bit. What's needed imo is a bit of common sense, not blanket bans. I'd be cautious about, say, an Italian greyhound, going to a home with small kids because the IG might get broken, but its a strong child that is going to hurt a wolfhound, deerhound or bullmastiff. On the other hand a boisterous wolfhound, deerhound or bullmastiff youngster could easily injure a small child without meaning the slightest harm. Parents have to be warned about these things, but in the end it all boils down to the them and how well they train and supervise both children and the dogs. After all, how many of us grew up with dogs without getting savaged or causing the dog(s) misery?

I have sold a puppy, and then a second one a year later to a couple ina flat. they convinced me that in their particular situation it would work. they were also very commited to the idea of dog ownership and were prepared to put themselves out if problems occured. Paying for a dog sittter when out if dog barked and caused nuisance,etc. this wasn't just talk, th4ey actually did it when every second week there were a couple of hours a day when they would both be out!

I also never rule out families, but have refused a few when it seemed that they had unrealistic views on what a dusruption a puppy might be to an already busy lifestyle.

Even then one still gets pups or adults come back as the owners have not really understood the responsibility, or circumstances have changed. All responsible breeders are trying to ensure the pup finds a permanent home.

Buyers may resent having to prove themselves, but everything else they may purchase is 'disposable' and unfortunately all to often pets are viewed in the same light. Lets face it how little commitment is thre in relationships/marriage, people wlak out and leave their kids too!

Don't know what the answer is but I do not make blanket judgements or rules, but am sorely tempted in light of past experience, but try to keep an open mind!

My dog is registered soley in MY name- how's that for watching your back:) One of my friends parents have just split up after something like 30 years of marriage! No one can predict the future- but you can bet your cotton socks on it that MY bitch came with me:)

Stacey x x x

Hi Fiona and all,

I think Breeders must have certain guide lines and standards to follow for themselves when deciding on placing a puppy with a family. Equally, however, I would not 'wear blinkers' and therefore be willing to consider the individual situation. If it was a family, as suggested, with very young children, BUT with dog owning experience. Children used to dogs, mother at home, and the whole family caring and sensible, then yes this would be different. However, I would want to see for myself that the children had respect for the dog and not just expecting that the dog will be good with them!

I personally, appreciate a Breeder making enquiries of me, it proves to me that this Breeder wants the best for the puppies.

If a Buyer was offended at being vetted, then as far as I am concerned they do not understand the need to be sure the home is suitable for the puppy, or the puppy suitable for them. While I was out recently with two of my dogs, who were busy playing with the dog of a family we met. Every time the dog came over to their young son, (about six years old) the boy used his foot in a kicking action. He then started throwing stones at the dogs (including mine), I quickly told him not to do that, as he may hurt the dogs or they may attack him. Only then did the mother say "Now, now, don't be naughty"!!

So I would want to see how children acted with puppies and older dogs, and how the parents responded to their actions.

I would enquire of potential Buyers what they knew about the breed already. However, limited, they should have found out something about their chosen breed, (other than "I like the looks") before they reach the Breeder.

For me, flat dwellers are sadly not ideal for dogs. Having access to a garden on nice days is wonderful. Also, what happens when the dog has an upset tummy, and needs to go outside a couple of times a night? I can just quickly open my back door, and wait, but slightly more difficult if it means several flights of stairs to a communal garden, or worse no garden at all! All aspects of dog ownership need to be considered.

I used to do 'trouble shooting' for a well known Rescue Organisation, and apart from 'problem' situations, if someone wanted a puppy, I often had the opportunity to discuss this with them. I would ask them how they proposed to deal with 'house-training'. It surprised me how many folk still believed in the awful idea of 'rubbing the pup's nose in it'! It then gave me the chance to explain why this should never be done, and the best way to house-train.

Suggesting the importance of insurance too. I would sometimes need to visit a dog who had 'become aggressive', only to discover he had an injury or illness that had been left, which I was always told "had only just happened", and they were "waiting until the end of the month for their pay cheque"!

No-one forces a Breeder to breed puppies. So stick to your principals and the matters that are important to you, of course be willing to listen and compromise, if the situation deserves it, but do not turn your back on what you know are important issues, otherwise you are already treading on the slippery slope of turning a blind eye!

Regards,
Denise.

Sharon - there may be hope for mine yet then ;)

I think you've raised a valid point about restrictions etc - where should breeders draw the line - a difficult one I think.

Sara :)

Sara, saying where to draw the line is difficult, but imo blanket bans are more or less begging the puppy buyer to make a rude sign and head for the nearest small ad. Personally I think 'no smokers need apply' is way over the top no matter how its phrased, but a bit more diplomacy and flexibility might do no harm in handling other matters like children under five, people who live in flats/small homes etc.

I'd never even thought to put that in an ad for my pups! Well that's one to remember for the future ;)

Bec - you'll need to take out a full A4 page ad at this rate to ensure the right homes ;)
Only joking, Sara :)

I'd never thought about passive smoking in dogs/cats before and I'm certainly interested in any studies that have been conducted. I won't let anyone smoke around the children but it would never have occured to me to stop them smoking around Holly, mind you no-one is allowed to smoke in the house.

An interesting subject.

Fiona
x x x

"Research has proven that cigarette smoke is related to several health-related illnesses in pets. A study found that the exposure of environmental tobacco smoke is linked to nasal and sinus cancer in pet dogs". Source: Passive Smoking affects the health of pets

Type: 'passive smoking effects on dogs' into a search engine.
Quite a lot of information is available :-)

Just read the first link Leigh - not sure I dare do a search as suggested or I'll end up needing another fag to calm myself down again ;)
No seriously I'll do a search and depress myself but maybe it'll be the thing that convinces me to stop or at least restricts my intake.
Sara :)

It's an eye opener Sara .....lend me your lighter ;-)

just noted one site that suggested allergy to smoke causing skin itches in some dogs ??? Maybe it's a question we should ask when the common "my dog won't stop scratching" question arises.

I have now decided to take drastic action :
stop smoking
use sunscreen even on cloudy days
never use my mobile phone again
get rid of my dogs as I may be allergic to them
eat only organic food I've grown in a bubble so no outside pesticides etc land on it
never drink tap or bottled water
turn off my computer for good so I don't get radiation from it

Google search is wonderful but when I start reading all the reports on the things you can find I wonder if I should do all the things advised or if should I just carry on as I am and hope to be run over by a bus :rolleyes:

God I need a fag !

Sara ;)

:D

:D

Melody

Yeah right !!!!!!
And I've decided to sprout wings and start flying (am porky enough, so as you've seen, is my mock !!!!!) :D :D

Sara, all good stuff! A pity that you'll be unable to summon help on your mobile phone when you collapse from dehydration, starvation or Vit D deficiency because you are completely sun-blocked. That is if you survive the sunscreen, since some may contain carcinogens :D

Sara, don't panic too much until you have tracked down the scientific papers themselves. Where emotionally charged issues like passive smoking are concerned, sometimes the 'headline' goes a good bit further than is warranted by the study :-).

I've got close friends that chain smoke - I often notice that my dogs fur is reeking of smoke :(
I would imagine that it would have the same effect as passive smoking in humans. The cat's food for thought though - I suppose he ingests nicotine off his fur in small amounts. :(
I think I'll start bunging him outside when they come round. I wouldn't ask them not to smoke as I used to be a smoker and know what the craving is like!

Lara - I don't see why you shouldn't ask them not to smoke at your house. I have no problem at all with not smoking at non smokers houses and infact even if they say "here's an ashtray" or whatever I don't light up as I don't feel it's fair on them (that's not to say I don't sneak off outside for one if there a while)
Sara :)

Hmmm - you have a point. I guess I just don't like inconveniencing them. I used to have a smoke free house and my Dad used to stand outside when he came. I saw him once shivering in the snow on the doorstep and he's old and ill, (but he still had to have his fag!) so I brought him in and gave him an ashtray. It sort of stemmed from then.
My mates will come and stay in my house when I go away and look after my dogs/cat, so it's kind of like home from home.

not quite so simple then Lara if they are your pet/house sitters I suppose. Not an easy one for you.

One of my sisters is a smoker but never smokes in her house - only the garden. It works well for her and keeps her intake down - maybe I should ask her if I can go and live with her :D Mind - I've seen her pretty much as you described your Dad so maybe I'll stay where I am ;)

I like the first bit where 'you said lighting up another ciggie'- I've just this minute light one up and clicked on this thread- naughty me eh:p Seriously though- I've not yet thought about Kass- she's only been here 3 1/2 weeks- but I don't smoke round the kids.

As for not selling puppies to kids under 5- I completely agree in a way- if the kids had been born into a dog owning family then fair enough let them have one if it was just to replace one they'd lost etc- but otherwise I can tell you from personal experience that no matter how careful you are things do still happen. All this and I always try to keep an eye on her, it's always those two minute scenarios that do it. Don't get me wrong it's not that I can't cope or anything- it's just I don't feel it fair on the poor dog:( My kids are 4 1/2 and 7 and I honestly wouldn't have sold myself one. If I ever bred Kassie I would be more than selective with who she goes to. I'm actually looking into building a large pen/run attached to the shed for her at the moment. I maybe slightly making too big a deal out of it all as these things happen but not in families with older kids they don't:(

Stacey x x x

Stacey x x x

I have to say Sara, this is one subject I would of
never thought of in a million years.
Hmmmmmmm,
A least thats given us all something to think about!
Nutkin

I have never let my dogs be around smoke. Visitors can smoke in the garden as long as they don't drop the butt down. I have a friend who smokes and we used to go to ringcraft together but as she smokes in the car, I now travel separately.
Friends do tend to think I'm mad when I say I don't want the dogs inhaling smoke but who cares.

We have dog sitters and we ask that they smoke outside. They are quite happy as the rules were set before we started. We both smoke but not often in the house. I more than always go outside for a puff.

Another thing that sprung to mind is how can you definately tell if a person comes to a breeder who stipulates non smokers that they are bonefide non smokers??

Lucy

As a non-smoker I can always tell people who smoke.

Fiona
x x x

How ?????

Lucy

Sorry - I can always smell the smoke. It's not at all obviuos between smokers but if you don't smoke you can pick a smoker because of the smell.

Fiona
x x x

Hi Fiona

If however like me you are not a every day smoker then it would be a bit difficult ! If somebody really wanted too they could pull the wool over peoples eyes ! Not like a kid when they come in form school and rush straight up stairs to brush their teeth thinking that the parents wouldn't notice !!!
:D

Lucy

I smoke too and am wondering what effect secondary smoke can have on a dog. They only live approx 14-15 years this is not a long enough time to develop cancer - I beleive its in the order of 30-40 years in most cases and not for secondary smoking so would think that there would be little effect on our doggy friends !

On the other hand Banger - they may develop it a damn site faster than you or I!!! :(

That's a good point Lara.
My GSD had a lump in his side infront of his hind leg in the fleshy body cavity. He was operated on in Sept 2000 and the lump removed. Feeling from the outside it felt like half an egg and had grown to that size really quickly. When removed the vet said it was actually the size of an orange and attached to his intestines in quite a few places. By the time his wound had healed 4 more lumps had appeared around that site and we had him PTS in early November 2000.
I queried about the fact he had got cancer so young (not quite 6) and the vet pointed out that as the life span of a dog is much shorter than ours everything happens quicker. In reality Woody was probably 2/3rds of the way through a natural life so that would be 50/60 in human age in effect. Also everything happens quicker in a dogs growth - look at how fast a pup matures and unfortunately this also seems to be the case with some cancers - a month in a dogs body is like 8 or 9 months to us.
Sara :(

Sorry to hear about Woody Sara :(
I also lost a dog to cancer a few years ago :(

Bangor , thats it Max wants a fag :) :D [ joking] The ultimate calmer

Smokers are the pariahs of society ..and guess what? Drinkers will be next :D

Imagine the outcry if adverts were to say : No one who regularly imbibes alcohol need apply...

As I do both I dont give a brass fig!

I am happy not to smoke in someone else's car , house etc etc after all , it is a matter of respect towards that person ..but no one tells me what I can and cannot do in my own home (yet) so I am happy

:)

Melody, I doubt it for too many of the 'great & good' enjoy a tipple :-). I'd like to see drinking, and especially drinking to excess, become more of a social no-no, and to see alcohol taxed more heavily. Its not entirely a joke to say that the NHS would grind to (more of) a halt without smokers and the evidence on secondary smoking is not clear cut, but the evidence of what heavy drinking does to families and communities is all around us.

I actually rarely drink ....and I really dont like drinking to excess in anyone ..but as a smoker I feel I have little right to critisise others :)

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone ...and all that jazz.

I would , however , have a zero tolerance for drinking and driving ..the law as it stands is ridiculous ...as alcohol affects different people and males and females in differnt ways .

Just my say so ....and , by the way ...if I could give up smoking I sure as heck would

Melody