MY FRIEND WENT TO BUY A PUP FOR HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER THE OTHER DAY,AT FIRST EVERYTHING WAS FINE ALL THE PAPERS WERE IN PLACE AS WERE THE REGRISTRATION OF THE PUPS,AND IN PAYING £700 FOR THE PUP MY PAL WANTED THE OPTION OF PUTING THE DOG INTO SHOWS AND MAYBE WITH AN OPTION OF BREEDING HER LATER ON,BUT THE BREEDER REFUSED TO SELL HER TO HIM AS HE ENDORSED HIS PUPS REFUSING HIM TO REGISTER ANY POSSIBLE LITTER WITH THE KENNEL CLUB...HAS ANYONE ANY INFO ON THIS PLEASE............FIRSTLY IT LEFT HIS DAUGHTER HEARTBROKEN AND A WASTED 600 MILE TRIP.

Many reputable breeders choose to endorse all their puppies to protect them from explotaion, and to ensure that only those are used for breeding that meet the criteria. 

This normally means the dog will have had to be shown and/or worked to prove itself a good example worthy of passing on it's genes, and also been put through the health schemes like Hip scoring, eye testing etc.

Endorsements can be removed if the breeder is satisfied.  I even endorse the pup I keep myself.

It could be that your freidn came across that they were wanting to breed willy nily and the breeder was worried about her pup, or that it was evident the pup would not be of show or breeing quality, so endosrements would never be lifted.

A breeder cannot prevent the showing of a KC registered dog, but if they fel the pup is not worthy then your freidn woudl be probably wastiong their money.

I too endorsed every puppy in my litter - including the two that I have kept and even though they are now coming up to 3 years old, I still haven't lifted the endorsements because I'm not yet absolutely certain in my own heart that they are good enough examples of their breed.   I think they are - but because I've not been out on the show circuit this year, I haven't put them up against their peers.

Margot

I endorse all my pups registration papers as well and set the general terms on which I may lift them in the contract.  (I do say "may" and not "will" ).

If someone did show or work their dog then it would go a good way to proving their interest in the breed and show they were not just having puppies for the sake of it.

It sounds as if your friend found a breeder who cared about their pups more than just selling them - that should have told them something ? !

I think endorsements are used by most responsible breeders these days and therefore your friend should view it as an encouragement that he has found a breeder worth purchasing from.  Providing registration is transferred to his name  nothing will stop him showing the dog.  I think it very important, though, that he discuss with the breeder the exact circumstances under which she would be willing to remove the endorsements, ie level of show placings, results of health screening etc. and get it in writing within the contract to avoid any misunderstandings later and allow appeal to the KC is the agreement if not adhered to by either party.

I endorse all of my pups but your friend should have been advised.  Most remove the endorsement once the dog has had all it's necessary health tests and is a good example of the breed.

You can still SHOW a dog endorsed not for breeding or not for export. As others have mentioned, most breeders are happy to remove endorsements later in life upon proof of satisfactory health tests such as hip scoring within the breed average, eye tests etc, and if you discuss the breeding plans with your breeder so the breeder is satisfied it's all going to be done responsibly. My breeding bitch was bought endorsed!  However I would queury whether you MENTIONED you may want to breed when you initially enquired about the puppy. I find a LOT of people approach breeders saying they only want a pet, not for breeding and not for showing, then when they SEE the registration ceritificate with the endorsement printed on it (same in dogs as in cats as it happens) they often say "oh but I wanted to breed" or "I may want to breed". It's important to be UPFRONT from the first contact. No repsonsible breeder will sell a puppy as a pet that is NOT endorsed, and unless they have been told there MAY be a future wish for breeding, they will of course not know. (Also a puppy sold as a pet may have been sold as a pet for a REASON, i.e. it may have a fault making it unsuitable for breeding, such as a colour fault, bad bite, tail kink, whatever.) I put in my contract that the puppy has been endorsed and this may be lifted if all the relevant health tests are carried out, the dog is a typical example of its breed (including temperament), and any breeding plans are discussed with the breeder.

Marianne

I would see an endorsed puppy as being bred by a responsible breeder, but would expect the prospective purchaser to be told before making the journey.
I would endorse my pups for a slightly different reason.  I care about my individual pups as well as the breed in general.  I consider that for a bitch to be whelped by an inexperienced person is putting my bitch, who I've taken great time, trouble, emotion and expense to breed, at an unacceptable risk.  I will not sell a bitch puppy to an owner who thinks that "they may like a litter" like they 'may paint the living room next year'!  I am happy to help anyone who wants to learn but wouldn't allow one of my pups to be put at that sort of risk.  But I would say exactly that, along with other requirements, before the family made the journey.
If a puppy goes to an experienced exhibitor/breeder, the I would not endorse or lift it if I had already completed the registration.
Having said that, a family who had children younger than I would choose (but the Mother was on the ball and understood exactly what I was concerned about!) travelled from one side of the country to the other to see the pups, knowing that if I didn't find them acceptable, then they would be going home without a puppy!  But that was all discussed before they left home.

thats terrible I can sympathise with your friend, I certainly wouldnt be happy if I had wasted a 600 mile round trip to see puppies and the breeder wouldnt let me have one! I would be furious! The breeder should have really put that the puppies are endorsed on their advert or mentioned it to anyone who enquired about the puppies, I wouldnt buy an endorsed puppy and I wouldnt encourage anyone else to either, endorsed puppies leave you at the mercy of fickle breeders who might not allow the restrictions to be lifted, I would advise your friend to look elsewhere, there are lots of good reputable breeders who health test etc but who dont endorse.

I think you'll find the majority of reputable breeders place restrictions on their pups.  I do, I tell potential new owners about them BEFORE they come to view, if they are happy with that, I also give them a written contract stating I will remove the restrictions once all relevant health checks to my breed have been done and I've seen the certificates and am happy.

I think only 'caring' breeders who have the well being of their breed at heart put these restrictions on and this shouldn't put you off of buying one

I would expect all puppies to be endorsed! It's a normal thing for reputable breeders to do.

>I wouldnt buy an endorsed puppy and I wouldnt encourage anyone else to either,

I wouldn't encourage someone to buy a pup where none of the litter had endorsements! To me, it would be a sign that the breeder didn't care two hoots about the future welfare of either the pups or the breed as a whole.
:)

ALL of my dogs have been purchased WITH endorsements and I wouldn't have expected anything else!

My bitch, which came via a very, very good friend, was endorsed, as was all the litter. 

A litter sister's endorsement was lifted once she had passed the relevant health checks and has since had two litters.

I think it is par for the course these days, one should read nothing sinister into it as long as both parties, as has already been mentioned, are fully au fait with the facts.

I will repeat what I said before - there are plenty of reputable breeders who care about the breed and who health test who do not endorse their puppies. Personally If I had an experience like that of the OP, I would look elsewhere.

Hmm I have seen both sides of this. I always endorse my pups & consider it the very responsible thing to do to safeguard my breed. I would therefore always recommend endorsing. however I was recently told about a puppy farmer who endorses the pups then when they get to about 2 years old & people want to breed :( he lifts the endorsement for another £400 !!!!!! Now that is awful & I know his stock is so poor its hard to tell it from part breds....he has also been banned from the breedclub & is a generally unpleasant person. I hope he is in the minority & that the rest of us who endorse, do it purely for the wellbeing of the future of our breed.

I breed, I endorse all my pups including those I keep, with plans to breed from them, IF they are good enough and pass all the health tests. Added to that, occassionally I will purchase a pup from another show breeder to strengthen my line. I have never yet bought a pup that is not endorsed. To be honest, if they hadnt been endorsed, I may have not considered a pup from the breeder.  If, on selling a pup without endorsement, the purchaser then goes on to breed for a, lets say, less than required for the breed standard. Or even one of my pups does not come up the standard, or even health tested before mating.  It is then MY line that has been abused and MY reputation at stake, not the person to whom I sold the pup.

Personally, have never had a problem with getting endorsements lifted if the b*tch has proven herself in the ring and health tests were good.  I dont use my dogs for stud, but they are also health tested.

Put simply, I always endorse and never purchase without endorsements already in place. 

Firstly endorsements do not stop you from showing.
If you intend to breed PROPERLY ...ie after health tests and only if your bitch is of a good enough standard I'm sure there would be no problen with the breeder lifting the endorsements.
Endorsements are a precaution used by responsible breeders(although I would agree that no endorsements does not mean they are irresponsible) to try and ensure the best for their breed and the dogs they breed
Archer

I to can understand Bulldog bashes reply, some breeders dont tell you the dog is endorsed until you've put the deposit down and your coming to pay the rest.  I can understand aswell why breeders put them on but this should all be explained as soon as the person enquires about the pups other wise it's not fair.  Breeders who dont tell the respective buyers that their pups are endorsed are being negligent because their not giving the purchaser the option to chose before they come attached and for someone to travel 6oo miles you would be disappointed, why couldn't he have saved the hassle over the phone then let them travel all that way, it's disgusting.  Reputable breeders who use endorsements in the right way i have respect for but for someone to use it as control over your dog what you've saved up for and been planning for ages is just dispiccable.

Warm regards Susan

I don't know but I would think if the breeder does not advise the new owner of the endorsement and there is nothing in writing that it can be overturned, but it's proving that this is so.

I endorse ALL of my stock too and always will do.  I think that you will find that most reputable breeders these days do. but not to be told is disgusting and then to be turned away, I wd. be unhappy too.

You have to ahve in writing that then buyer knows the endorsements are in place otherwise the KC can overturn them if the new owner wasn't advised.

In the breeders defence if endorsements are standard practice in their breed they may have assumed that the new owner would understand them being in place, and of course if they originally said they only wanted a pet then having them in place would make no differnece to them.

Dont get me wrong i can understand that and if i was trying to achieve a certain criteria and to meet the standard i would endorse to but in this case the breeder didn't tell the person that the dog was endorsed until the person had travelled all that way, which in my opinion i dont think is fair.  I did laugh though and thought it was good that uses breeders well the ones on here even endorse their own pups what they keep, well done use, there's no double standards there is there.

Warm regards Susan

Most people register their pups when they are about two weeks old so they won't know which one they are going to keep.

You then mate your bitch and forget that you still ahve the endorsements in place. 

You then get call from Kennel Club asking you if you would like to lift the endorsement as you can't register the litter without doing so, LOL :D

I still say it is up to the BUYER. If they say they want a pet, maybe to show, but mention NOTHING of breeding when they contact the breeder, I don't see any reason for why endorsements should be mentioned immediately. I'd consider somebody asking for a pet and/or show dog but not mentioning anything about breeding to be misleading the breeder if they don't want the pup endorsed. After all, if you want a pet why should the endorsement matter? And if you want to breed, or think it is possible you might want to, you should MENTION it immediately.

Marianne

Tend to agree, the endorsements only matter to someone if they want to breed, and no responsible breeder wants anyone doing this without the right amount of thought and the health and welfare of the pup and breed at heart.

I probably had the lst not endorsed litter tha my breeder bred (in 1992) as prtetty much everyone endorses now as suggested in our breed clubs code of ethics drawn up around that time.

I did tell her right off that If I was able to start showing (my son was a toddler at the time), which I did two years later, then I might well want to breed from her if she was good enough(she got her stud book number and her litter brother was a Champion).

The rest as they say is history.

There needs to be a relationship of trust between any breedr and someone who wnats to get more deeply involved in their breed.  My breeder became one of my mentors up until her death. 

I was so pleased she lived long enough to see me gain my first CC, with that bitches descendant, though she didn't live long enough to see me make her up. :(

All our pups have been endorsed and rightly so, I have no problem with this at all. Reading the OP's post again, I think it sounds like the breeder would let them have the pup endorsed, but they wanted it unendorsed which the breeder (rightly) refused to do. So they could have had the puppy, but they CHOSE not too. They can't complain about it if it was their decision no to have it!

To be honest, endorsement of registration is so commonplace nowadays, and indeed expected by many breed clubs, that I would imagine that the breeder assumed (I'm sure everyone assumes people have more knowledge than they actually have! ;) ) that the OP would also be aware of this, especially if they made no reference in the original contact that they were innterested in breeding. This is where buyers have to be have open as they can and give breeders as much help as possible - it could be that the pup the OP had chosen had a breed fault that made future breeding out of the question, so of course no endorsements would be lifted, ever. That's a sign of responsibility, not the opposite!

In the original post the OP makes no mention of having told the breeder in advance they were looking for a show/breeding puppy - if they said they were only after a pet puppy then endorsements on the registration won't matter in the slightest.
:)

jonboy67,

Just out of pure curosity, you bought a min Sch. pup recently and then asked about breeders of puppies - were you looking for a future mate for your own pup and did your friend mention this either before he went to see the pups or when he was there?

hi all...many thanks for all your response to my endorsing queery..first of all your info was very much appreciated........yes i have a mini schnauzer thats 6 months old and we bought him as a pet whom we hoped that he would bring a lot of fun and happiness into our home and hes more than done that 100 times over....as ive said my dogs loving pet and ive no intensions of using him against any other dog,whilst i was at the vet for his last jag i was enquiring about getting him neauterd and as soon as hes fully developed he`ll be getting that done.......once again thanks

Has your friend read any of the above?  How do they feel now that they know more?

I must admit I feel really sorry for your friends my new puppy owners are sent my contract before coming for the pups.

yes hes grateful for all the info and has more of an understanding on why its done,than he had before....i`m sure hes more the wiser from all the letters thats been posted,its not put him off from getting a pup, he`ll jusy  bide his time and get one from possibly the breeder i got mine from or one nearer home...........

I'm glad about that, I hope that he gets what he wants.  I know that going far away hasn't been good this time round but closer isn't always the best.  I've got everything crossed that everything goes right for them this time round, I'm sure it will.

I do ensdorse all my puppies and I have a very carefully worded document which explains the conditions in which I will remove the endorsement.  This is for both bitches and dogs.  Some I will not remove if they have cosmetic or hearing faults and the owners are fully aware.

However when I purchased my first dalmatian she cost a great deal of money and I did explain to the breeder at the time that I did hope at some point in the future to breed from her.  She did not tell me she had endorsed the pedigree and I had a litter of puppies before I realised she had done it.  Because you are not looking for it you dont become aware of it.  I thought this was way out of order.  Had she explained then I would have been happy about the restrictions but she didnt.

On the other end of the scale I was shocked to find my beagle has no endorsements at all. 

>However when I purchased my first dalmatian she cost a great deal of money and I did explain to the breeder at >the time that I did hope at some point in the future to breed from her.  She did not tell me she had endorsed the >pedigree and I had a litter of puppies before I realised she had done it.  Because you are not looking for it you >dont become aware of it.  I thought this was way out of order.

It also makes it not valid. Not sure exactly how it would work, how you get it lifted, but an endorsement can only be valid if this is pointed out to the owner at the time of sale. In fact, it it printed in the instructions on the registration forms to fill in to register puppies that the new owner must have SIGNED something to say they are aware of the puppy being endorsed.

Marianne

It is also against the dalmatian clubs rules to do it without letting the new owner know but she lift it but I just thought it was a nasty trick to do to someone.

Just joining my voice to the others who endorse their registrations ( and have twice forgotten to lift it on mine until reminded by the K.C.!!)

However, it's one of the first things that I talk about on the phone with my prospective owners, and so far everybody has understood the reasoning.    It's poor when the new owner comes to collect and is told at that stage.

You do have to make sure that the new owners agree to it in writing.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Good luck to him for the next time. I'm glad he realises that endorsements are put on for the benefit of the puppy as well as the breed, and can be lifted if all the criteria are met. Also it'll help both him and the next breeder he contacts to explain early on that he might be looking to breed in the future, so he won't be offered a purely-pet puppy (by that I mean one with a breed fault which won't stop it having a healthy life, but which precludes it from the showring or breeding, where the endorsements will never be lifted).

If he contacts the breed clubs he'll be put in touch with reputable breeders who have puppies.
:)

Good point jeangenie, because alot of people do by a pup as a pet and then they wont to show and so on, not realising that they chose a pet.  So this is where you should always tell the breeder what you wont from a respective puppy because there in the best position to give you what you wont.

Warm regards Susan

There is a Champion dog I bred whose owners had no intentions of showing him. 

He has had a good hip score and been eye tested.  His endorsements are still in place.

I will be happy to lift them if and when I am asked.  As yet no-one has asked to use him at stud so they haven't asked for them to be lifted.

So endorsements won't stop you from showing a dog.

Why don't the KC make endorsements compulsory and then only allow the breeder to lift if they have passed all the relevant breed health checks and are assessed by a panel/board to verify that they have met certain breed standards, this without having to pay a fee ? :)

I dont know about the fee bit, but it would stop alot of problems if the kc did make it compulsory to have endorsements on all dogs but i dont think they would be happy losing all that money with transfer of ownership and so on because there would be alot less dogs being bred from.

Warm regards Susan

Transfer of ownership wouldn't be affected.

That would be a very good thing in a lot of breeds if they were bred less eg Labs :)

The KC has got to start taking a more proactive approach surely . To do this by increasing the quality of many breeds would perhaps increase the price of puppies ? I suppose though this would encourage DLC :( There must be a solution ?

Lucy
xx

Yeah Jodi, but how many people have you had when they've enquired say "ooh, I don't want to breed from the pup" and then when they get to your house they start talking about breeding. I have turned a few people away that have done this in the past, it does happen.  Not saying that this is the case here, but it does.

have to say that I totally agree with endorsements... My thoughts on this situation however is, isnt that one of the first questions the breeders should be asking.."what do you want this pup for?" Ultimately the responsibility falls on the breeder to make sure that prospective buyers are well and truely informed, if they care about their pups that is. Not wait until they travel 600 miles and then mention it. I just recently had a prospective buyer contact me from 140 miles away and we had 3 telephone calls and made sure that we got all the nitty gritty over with before they travelled the distance to see the pups.
Just my thoughts
Jodi

Seems to be an interesting difference between the show world and the working gundog world. Its quite unusual for working bred gundogs to be endorsed.

I think your opinion is right Krankypuss at the end of the day the breeder should always inform the buyer of any restrictions and try to get all the information off the new owner so both people are happy.  The reason i said it would effect transfer of ownership is because of registrations you have to register you litter then the new owner has to register the pup.  If all dogs had to be endorsed with all the health checks i bet there would be alot less people breeding, so therefore it would affect the kennel club registration fees.  The kennel club in my opinion doesn't ask any questions regarding the seller of puppies or owners of dog.

Warm regards Susan

I am not saying this is right, but even with registration  endorsed, it will not always stop people breeding if they really want to, the pups are just sold cheaper as they are not registered. We do not live in an ideal world unfortunately. Can the kennel club do anything if these pups are eventually bred from.

I think endorsements are a good idea, but att the end of the day they should be lifted eventually. After the purchaser of the pup is the long term legal owner of the dog and they shouldn't have restrictions. If i was going to endorse a litter i would endorse 'progeny not eligible for registration' until that dog reaches two and a half years old. I would warn the owners of potential health risks and the general health of the breed. If they choose to breed from that dog, then it's up to them.

Of course i do not want to encourage irresponsible breeding but if they own the dog it should be their choice.

Some dogs will never be suitable for breeding, so their endorsements should never be lifted.

I would endorse for the protection of my bitch as much as for the protection of unsuspecting families buying badly bred puppies. :( 
I truly don't believe that anyone who owns a bitch should be allowed to breed in ignorance, but endorsements are all I've got to avoid new owners putting my bitch pups at risk.

And I agree with JG some pups will make good pets but should never be included in the gene pool.