Is it just me, but I am noticing a vast increase in the number of people advertising dog training classes in my area.  It seems that everybody and their aunt thinks they are suitable to train dogs.  Is this just happening here or is anybody else noticing this alarming trend in their area?  My worry is the increase in trainers such as those that starlight and darling buds have encountered.  I know that the KC is introducing an accreditation scheme but I don't think this will stop it.  I have to add that I am not a dog trainer and there are only a couple in my area that I would recommend.  Just thought I would ask you guys to see if this is a widespread "trend".

Best wishes
Annie

I wouldn't worry too much - the good ones will be able to take the competition, and the bad ones will fall by the wayside as their clients fine out their methods don't work.....  I heard yesterday of a trainer who had to close because the word got around that their methods simply don't work.....

At least people will be able to look out for the accredited trainers :) A friend had her accreditation inspection a few weeks ago and it was quite long and vigorous - they came out to watch her take a class. She found it quite nerve-wracking although she has is highly qualified and experienced and is on the team advising the KC :)

Daisy

<and the bad ones will fall by the wayside as their clients fine out their methods don't work> true digger but how many dogs will be ruined before this happens & although accreditation is in some ways a good idea in principal, however there will be good trainers well in fact excellent trainers that have no interest in going through the KC doesn't mean they are bad trainers

I know of a some trainers who are members of APDT, etc that I wouldn't let within 100 miles of my dogs, because although they can pass tests & exams & put on a show for testers they basically have no indepth knowledge of any breeds other than their own as well as only having knowledge of their own breed limited to their own dogs & similar type.

One who comes to mind has"working"GSDs, they have only show lines behind them but because they have dabbled in working trials & obedience they assume their dogs are working GSDs & claim their dogs offspring are from working lines. A real working bred GSD went to them that had masses of drive & was totally ruined by the training methods used, which are ok for a pet GSD that is just required to walk sedately on lead & come when called, but fall way short of the training needed for this dog. The owner had been referred to this trainer by a breed club so they thought they were doing right by their dog. Happily after 18 months & with the help of my friend in Germany who is a trainer, handler & judge of schutzhund we have finally got him on the right path & he is now a happy stable dog. BTW the trainer is part way through being accredited apparently!

Fortunately my friend isn't a member of APDT - she is a member of BIPDT - and has enormous experience of many breeds of dogs not just in training, but in working, search and rescue, veterinary etc etc :)

Daisy

I wasn't meaning your friend, but there are out there "qualified"trainers who are as useful as a chocolate fireguard when training in the real world without testers there :(

I know about the BIPDT & believe it or not this trainer has been on their training courses & passed. Paper & test qualifications are one this & true ability to train others to train their dogs can be another thing all together & oddly enough people who you pay to train rarely totally fail you especially if there are other courses you can pay to go on after the inital one ! Don't get me wrong this trainer can train pet GSDs to be nice dogs but has no ability to train anything else!

Your friends background is excellent a breadth of knowledge is essential to be a good trainer, but sadly not always needed to pass tests

I stupildly ignored my instincts and took my dog to a trainer who they reccomended and that was under the KC scheme, but because of both these things I just assumed they were correct in everything. We were there for a while being told to yank the dog back on the lead when he pulled and because he was a WHITE German Shepherd his temperament was going to be extremely bad :rolleyes: etc etc. It was the last straw when 4 tiny children came charging in the class (they planned for them to come in as the week before I had mentioned that my dog got a bit nippy around children) and my dog obviously was jumping up as they ran past screaming nipped clothes etc that I never went back again.

I always tell people to go without the dog to any training club/trainer (not just once but two or three time before taking the dog if they are in the least bit unsure)

I know of one trainer who is a member of everything going yet has only been involved with dogs since he went on his pre retirement course before leaving the army ! He has passed every exam & test, but when no testers are present he uses the worse of methods physical punishment :( which includes the use of an old fashioned riding crop :O The dogs come out of his courses very obedient & terrified of doing anything wrong Really Really sad, but when anyone goes to check up he is the model of motivational training !

In general though, if a trainer is prepared to gain some qualifications then the chances are they are better than someone who can't be bothered :) Of course, recommendation is the best place to start, followed by (as you have said) attend the classes and use your own eyes and common sense. However, there are lots of people who can only go by 'recommendation' by the KC in the form of their accreditation scheme :) Some form of formalisation has to be better than nothing at all. In most other areas of life, people look for 'professionals' to have some form of qualification - although the thread about vets proves that it doesn't always mean a guarantee of excellence :D

Daisy

MM, if this trainer is a member of the APDT, can you PM with his details please as if this is correct he needs to be reassessed and spat out.

Lindsay
x

He has already been reassessed & passed again His pupils cannot see that what he is doing is wrong  There is no point unless the APBT send in undercover owners & dogs to check out what I have seen him do(he doesn't know me or my dogs). When he is assessed he ensures he has a class of newbies as he is not so stupid. as to do it when being assessed. He is very careful taking on owners & dogs, if he finds out that his owners go to another club he boots them out very diplomatically(ie Your dog is fully trained, I can't help you, etc) If they mention they go to another trainer or have trained dogs before he never has any vacancies for them

He makes a lot of money from his "training methods"(£10 per lesson in a class of up to 12 people 5 + times a week) & sadly Joe Public keep on getting taken in

Have PM'd you :)

Lindsay
x

Moon maiden

I am quite surprised that this guy is getting away with what you say he does.

When I was assessed I had to give up to 8 dates of classes running over a period of time and the assessor picked which one he attended so it would be difficult to rearrange which people came to that specific class, especially if it was part way through a course of classes.  Also, the assessor deliberately chose to attend one of my puppy/beginner classes as these provide the absolute raw material that any trainer has to work with. He explained that he did this because intermediate and advance handlers already have ironed out some of the problems they originally present with and he wanted to see how I would handle the real 'difficult' cases of both novice handler/novice dog.  Could this be the reason why this trainer was assessed on 'newbies' ie the choice of the assessor and not the trainer

I still think that one of the earlier posters made a good point though when they said someone who goes to the trouble of getting accepted by APDT or as a KCGC approved trainer are a better bet than someone who hasn't gone down that route.  It took me 1 year from applying to being accepted by APDT and over 18 months to get on a KCGC training seminar, find premises that met with approval, and get references of my training ability.   That was on the back of training dogs for years without any recognised body being involved as at one time there weren't any recognised bodies to be affiliated with!

I agree with everyone here.  The problem in our area is people with no qualifications holding classes and people who don't know any better attending them and "recommending" them to other people!!  As MM points out, training a pet dog is very different to training a dog with special needs like a working GSD!  I do hope that KC accreditation becomes more widely recognised so as to separate the wheat from the chaffe!

Annie

In Germany you must prove your worth with dogs before you are even considered to for training for an SV trainer/judge & when you have done that the training is rigorous & quite lengthy & as I know from personal experience the examiners do not mince words ! & if you are not up to snuff then you do not pass. I think this puts off a lot of the less able people as they usually fail with the ability with dogs & never get to the training stage

I was lucky to learn from some of the first non choker trainers so was in at the start of motinational training  with them, probably the reason my dogs could & can turn their paws to a cross section of activities because they want work with me as opposed to being forced to comply by the use of a lead etc

I do exactly the same with my dogs!  Our relationship is based on mutual respect!  As in a previous post you will note that when I had my first dog I went along to a training class that used choke chains and this was the norm then.  It didn't seem right to me and I didn't go back.  I just kind of learned along the way how to train and, of course, I made mistakes but the alternative in those days was the choker chain brigade!!!  I've now come a long way, thank goodness, but would never ever consider myself good enough to be a dog trainer, although I do have the qualifications that people are using as justification for practising.  I like to keep my knowledge for my own dogs and, if I do make mistakes, then I am the one that has to fix it!!!! 

Kind regards
Annie

Occasionally a few pop up round here (west sussex), but don't last long. They do it for money. People seem to think they can make cash out of training dogs and that is their only motivation. They either give up because they suddenly find out how much hard work it is or they fold due to lack of members. People vote with their feet -the problem is we end up having to correct the mistakes they have made, when the owner comes to us for help after an encounter with these so called trainers.

It's important to remember that in all organisations, there are bad apples.

There's one organisation I disliked because I know of one high up person who has does very harsh training with dogs, and he is still training others; yet, there are several people i have huge admiration for in that same organisation.

Lindsay
x

There was a discussion about the accreditation on a training list I'm on - several people said it was worth doing but, were frustrated as the KC seemed to keep changing things.
They still want to do it, but are waiting a little while in case things change again, as they want to make sure their hard work is not for nothing.

Lindsay
x

Unfortunately the KC are always changing things and they do it for money to!!

Spot on.  I went down this road some time ago, waited ages for them to get the paperwork ready despite the fact they had been promoting it to KCGC trainers.  When paperwork finally came I had given up on hearing from them amd commited to further study elsewhere.  When I re-applied, using the original forms I was told the format was changing.    How could it take so long to get the first format right if within a few months it was already wrong!!  Waste of time and money!!

Hi Annie

ONe of the major porblems round here is gaining access to training facilities. More and more indoor facilities are saying 'no dogs' and even outdoor facilities are getting more and more difficult and expensive to use. Although of course there are always the 'quality' trainers who do it all unofficially and yes we have our fair share of the poor and mediocre too  :(

Hello all,

I would just like to add that just because you take and pass a training course, your ongoing training should always continue.
Even if you pass a training course, your knowledge shouldn't just stop there.
I try to go on as many instructors courses as possible, as well as training courses for myself as a dog handler. The club that I instruct at positively encourages its trainers to continue learning all the time. We get a lot of our 'problem' dogs recommended by the local vets, and alot of others come back to us with subsequent dogs, which is always lovely to see!

Ali :)

Unfortunately there are alot of so-called trainers out there that have no qualifications and they think they can train dogs because 'they have had dogs all their life'. These are exactly the sort of people that tend to blame everything on 'dominance' without an iota of knowledge on dog behaviour and why dogs do what they do. Accreditation and being a member of different organisations is definitely a good step, as at least there is a chance of people being assessed and reported if they fail to go by the code of conduct. Similarly, and more dangerously, there are many so-called behaviourists. These people do a lot more damage and I find myself very frequently trying to help dogs whose owners have been given the wrong advice. I work purely under veterinary referral and the vets get a copy of the behavioural report. Clients also report back to the vets and this is the only way to determine how good someone is or not. I think qualifications are extremely important in dog training, as well as the experience to train dogs and all the different methods you have to use for different dogs (depending on their breed, past homes, current circumstances, etc).

It may be worth mentioning that a pet dog trainer is completely different to an obedience or some other specialised training. I would never dream of sending a pet dog to a working trials or gundog class. With pet dogs, families need a lot more different advice and help than having someone teach them the pure 'sit','heel' or 'down'.

Mind, having said all this, I think this is a problem that will continue for a long, long time until the public become more and more educated on what they should be looking for in a trainer or behaviourist.

Cheers,
Patty

We don't have many around here but there's only one I would recommend as a good trainer in the area.

I remember going to see this particular trainer roughly 5 years ago who used choke chains, negative reinforcement and the dogs did what they did because they had to do it not because they enjoyed it.  It was a sorrowful sight! :-(  I watched one lady ( if you could call her that) beat her dog with a lead because he didn't understand what she wanted him to do.  And the trainer himself kicked his dog because he didn't do what he wanted him to do.  It was so sad.  It was a national training club and my OH was just about to start training as an instructor with them.  I'm not going to mention the name but I reported them to the Chairman of the club and we haven't been back since so I don't know what they are like now. 

The only true way to train a dog is motivational techniques based of positive reinforcement, association, reward and counter conditioning.  Your dog does what you want him to do because he wants to do it (it's his choice) not because he has to.  You never stop learning about dogs and you never stop training them either.  It becomes a way of life.

Unfortunately, these types of trainers will exist for as long as there are people who don't know any different and listen to them. 

Yes, you are right!!!  Perhaps the KC or APDT could do a marketing campaign to advise owners and prospective owners what to expect from a training class!!!!!!  The good thing about this forum is that new owners can get really good advice about training etc., but what about joe bloggs who doesn't come here for advice.  In a perfect world........................

Annie

But isn't this the way of the world?  There may be many new dog trainers springing up in various locations in the UK but that doesn't mean they are bad trainers.   The old hypothesis about pack theory, 'dominance', choke chains and a dog should know his place etc is very much outdated although unfortunately it still exists with some.  But for how long? 

Those two particular cases I mentioned are the only ones that I have seen with my own eyes in years.  And both incidents happened at the same training club. 

There's only 1 trainer I would recommend in my area because I know him well, I worked with him when he was training and I know why he decided to train dogs  - because it angered him to see trainers that he worked with using dominance theory and using fear as a so-called method to train dogs.  He wanted to make a difference and he fell out with a national organization to do so.  And he was training dogs long before he got any qualifications.  He's stopped advertising over the last few years because he is absolutely overwhelmed with clients.  So it does appear that the vast majority in the local area know what makes a good trainer.

Yes, we all hear the negative stories and there are those unfortunate people that come across these negative trainers but you'll find that more and more of them are questioning the methods used.  Bad news travels faster.