Hi

How old is the oldest bitch anyone has had pups with? All truthful answers please.

CJ

8 years and 1 week. 

Have seen dogs abroad have pups at 13 years of age, but would never do it myself. Just because it happens doesn't mean it shold be done.

My girl who had hers at 8 was extremely fit and actually is still very agile at nearly 12 years of age and looks as though she will have a good few more healthy years in her yet especially as her dad passed away only recently at the age of 15.

I only did this as she's a rare breed and a male that had just been imported I felt was suitable to extend the lines here in the UK.  Luckily the KC agreed with me and my vet and allowed me to have the litter.

6 and I personally wouldn't breed a bitch after that age.

Hiya

What sort of dog was is she? I have a gorgeous Bitch who has just turned 7 and I wanted to pick a bitch for myself from her litter and wondered if it was to old. Not sure how to go about finding her a suitable stud though.

CJ

That's far too old for a first litter! Everyone else is talking about final litters (I hope!) ...

I too agree that's far too old for a first litter, my girl was on her third and final litter at 8 years and 1 week.

Emma was 6 in March, she will be 6.5 when she whelps her final litter.

She is 7 years old & has had this would be her third litter - I didn't say it would be her first !!!

Did she only have dog puppies in hr previous two litters then?

I planned to only keep a bitch from Amber's 3rd and last litter, JG, due to home space and the desire to have a reasonable age difference between them so obviously I think that is reasonable :). 
However and bye the bye, plans of mice and men and all that she only had one bitch and as I had promised one to a close friend I felt she had to go there.  My friend is much more experienced in the breed than me though and I knew she would do better in the ring under her training and handling and her genes have since been mixed with the dog that I would have chosen for her myself (well mostly because I would have taken the advise of my friend :D) of course she could have had no bitches or not conceived even so as a plan it is not without risk but aren't they all :)

I said 6 as this was also her 3rd and final litter, she was spayed 3 months after.

The kennel club say six litters and a will not register pups from a bitch into her 8th year,we know a person that has bred bitches well past this age,and we made our feelings perfectly clear,i think it is disgraceful,but that is my opinion.
We plan to breed our english springer if she is a good example of the breed and her health testing is clear,she will have max 3 litters and be spayed.

Personally I think a lot depends on the breed.
Having bred bullmastiffs - a large breed with lots of health problems & also having bred Border Terriers a small natural, healthy little dog - I think the answer to the question would vary for the breed in question.  :)

I have a border terrier and live in the west midlands and plan to breed from her when she is old enough so far she is looking a good example of the breed and when her tests come in i'm crossing my fingers.  They are in my opinion a fantastic dog which i'd recommend any time.  I'm only letting her have a max of 4 litters.

Anne

I think we must all look at things so different :-))

I would or could never say I would only let my girl have 4 litters. I personally wouldn't let a bitch have a second litter unless she didn't produce something I wanted in the first, or if she was so fantastic and produced a fantastic litter , that a second litter would be a must. ( I know a few of you do have nice bitches that a 2nd or 3rd would be a must but when a bitch is a youngster you just cannot tell so can't say)

If the bitch produces a better bitch I personally think what is the point in mating her again UNLESS she is outstanding herself and just a fanastic producer.  I took a second litter off one bitch as she only had dogs. All touch wood have produced a bitch better than themselves.

I think that the difference Blue depends on whether you are producing puppies to sell or whether you are trying to produce quality to show and breed on from in order to improve/maintain the breed standard.

Agree with Val on this.  The only reason for Emma's mating this time is simply because she has already produced some excellent pups. Little Ellie only lightly shown (concentrating on Tia's JW) but has been well placed at all shows including winner of breeder stakes.  But Emma is my only yellow bitch and previous pups kept are all black, this mating will (hopefully) continue my yellow line. The stud chosen took very careful consideration. So, not just a case of how many litters, but why take more than one litter in the 1st place!!

Val & Kayc, Glad you knew where I was coming from. :-))

That's why my girl had a litter at 8 years and 1 week.  A new stud was brought into the country which those of us who had the breed felt would complement Lydia and improve the breed, especially as there were only about 160 in the country at the time.  I think that I can safely say it worked out well, Gollie, Moby, Brio and their other two litter brothers are like peas in a pod and also have wonderful temperaments so luckily for me it worked out.

Anxies, I have a question for you in response to your statement that you intend to breed up to 4 litters from your bitch puppy.

How do you as a first time Border Terrier owner, know she is a good example of the breed and can hopefully produce better than herself?

Unless you have plans to show her to see how good an example she is or get opinions from well respected breed specialists then in my opinion you should think long and hard about even breeding one litter let alone four. 

Border Terrier registrations are on a continual upward climb at the moment, which has concerned the Breed Clubs enough that they have held meetings of all the clubs to discuss how to reduce the number of litters bred.

The majority of Borders in welfare hands have been bred by pet owners, who having sold the pup either can't or won't take responsibility for the puppies they have produced. A lot of whom bear only a fleeting resemblance to a Border Terrier and certainly do not have the correct Border Terrier temperament.

I would respectfully suggest that before making such a damning statement of the possibility of taking 4 litters from your pet,that as well as health checks, you go get some specialist opinions of your bitch's qualities and if they suggest that she is suitable for breeding A litter from, then get them to point out to you her faults so that when looking for a Stud Dog you can find one without the same faults. I would also suggest that you make a similar posting on the Border Terrier Site that you are a member of, and see what reaction you get on there!!!!

If and when you produce a litter from her, I would also suggest that you get the same breed specialists to give an honest opinion of what she has produced, and if they say that having bred her with a good quality stud dog that her progeny are not an improvement on herself, then forget about the next three litters and just enjoy her as a pet.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I am sick and tired of the breed I love and am a custodian of, being ruined by inexperienced breeders.

Hi there firstly Lady Dazzle i'm very sorry if i offended you but everyone starts somewhere and please dont presume you know what i intend to do.  Yes i am inexperienced, but i have a very good breeder who knows what he is talking about with breed.  I admit i dont disturb him on the silly stuff but breeding is a must.  Not to mention the help of the 'breed forum' i mentioned which yes i have posted that i do want to if she is good enough.  Do you not think i have done my research and know i have a hell of a lot to learn.  I have looked at all the pros and cons, know of the death as well of the life, and god knows i know the first few week there is no sleep, money is none existant and frankly you have to love the breed to keep going.  I would never put any pup in the position that if there was a problem i would not step in immediately.  To be honest i would happily home all of tess's babies and no i would not be doing it because i simply like the fluffy puppies.  Of course i am going to show her first i was just answering the question of the forum all i am saying is that if she stays the way she is over the next 2 yrs and proves herself(my breeder is overjoyed with her) and gets better she will make a wonderful bitch to make pups beneficial to the breed.  And no i will not be breeding her to just any dog i will of course in the event be taking plenty i repeat plenty of advice!!!

Anxies

>but everyone starts somewhere

I've lost count of the times I've heard this statement (please don't be offended anxies I'm not directing this at you), and of course everyone starts somewhere, but surely they should start learning first and doing once they are well on the learning road.  How can anyone possibly know enough to breed from their first bitch.  In addition, even if they do have the help of an experienced breeder, part of a good breeders responsibilities are to support and help the owners of the puppies they produce.  How can they possibly know about bringing up and owning dogs and in turn give advice and support to these puppy owners if they themselves are novice dog owners.

Off my soap box now :D

It took me 20 odd years of dog owning before I felt confident enough to plan a litter of pups. :)

Marianne

I respect everything that you have to say after all we learn from critisism and all that and to be honest i respect anyone that knows about the breed.  I honestly have only the best intentions i will not be a fly by night breeder that you see on some of these puppy selling sites and goodness knows i agree with you there are too many of those (not to mention suspiciouly large litters for the breed) i am inexperienced although i have a very good teacher who to be honest tells you the critical before he gives you the good and one hell of a love of the breed.  I admit he is not my best friend as he is a bit dry for that lol but is very helpful and has been great.  I'm trying to get my head around genetics and all that and have the book of the bitch which looks invaluable.  I have always had dogs and to be honest this is my second bitch but i have been brought up with a breeder of shit su's and let me tell you i have seen a few things with those little darlings.  She is a remarkable woman and has had so much joy from her dogs with showing and breeding, i know from her it is far from easy and not as straight forward as a novice would first think i.e get one dog with a bitch and bang you have puppies.
Please understand by all means the breed standard comes first to me before the thought of just some cute pups,  it is something i have always wanted to do and it is something i shall do to the best standard i possibly can.  And believe me by the time i get to the point went i ask myself is it time? should i?   Tess and myself will be very ready in all ways possible.
I'm not trying to argue with you as please take this as i really respect anyone who cares about the breed enough to voice any fears i'm just trying to say i shall be doing as much as i can to do the breed right lol
Anyway after all that i have to ask how many borders do you have? I alway like to talk about the little devils as they do work their way into your heartstrings, despite being the biggest food rascals in the world lol
What Tess wont do for food especially chicken and liver bits.....

I did not presume that I know what you are going to do, you yourself said you intend to breed up to a maximum of 4 litters from your bitch.

When a statement like that is made, then that makes it about numbers of litters and numbers of pups produced, not quality and improvement of the breed!!

Goodness gracious i was answering quickly i saw the topic and just put my thoughts in quickly as i was about to go out regarding if all goes well and if i do intend to breed i did not expect to have to go through my breeding ethics and life story in the process.  Anyway i think this has gone more than a bit off topic.  I'm truely sorry if you dont agree with me, all i can say is that i have the best interests of the breed at heart if she is not good enough i wont breed and if she is i will its as simple as that.  Just didnt think i'd get a ear bashing for just stating that was a possibility thought that was the general jist of the discussion.  Also yes i would be going a litter at a time if the first litter was not right i would either have to rethink my lines or not do it again four litters like i said in the first post was if all goes well and the absolute maximum that i would ever put her through.  Like i said it was a quick type didnt think exactly what i put if you took against that i'm sorry.

Thank you Anxies , you have answered my question.  Glad you have the interests of the breed at heart.

I am very protective of my breed and am appalled at how they are being over bred and spoilt at the moment, so so when reading about the possibilties of 4 litters from an as yet unproven bitch my hackles went up.

I hope that your bitch turns out to be a good example and that you do all the research necessary before embarking on breeding her, and end up with some nice quality puppies that are a credit to our breed.

Our breed club code of ethics allows up to four litters.  In a breed like ours you shouldhave produced something decent by then or not at all.

To be honest if you have a breeding program in mind you will likely have picked out where you are going and a contingency if it doesn't work out. 

Best laid plans of mice and men as they say.  You may find the ideal mate on paper doesn't click with your bitch, or the best pups are the wrong sex, or when your bitch should have her first litter you are not yet ready to keep one.

I will be breeding fa first litter from my youngest, but not keeping anything as I already have the maximum number of dogs. 

The litter will allow me to see what she can produce and prove her.  I then plan to keep something from her say two years later. 

It may be that the second litter will not have what I want, maybe I will want to repeat the first, or go in another direction based on what has been revealed in previous litters of both parents.

So far I have bred no more than 3 litters from any bitch.  Pups from the litters that I did not keep something from can be incorporated down the line by using their offspring or them on future generations of my own.

So there is a bigger picture than just the pup you are keeping for yourself.

I have bred from bitches from 2 years old up to 6 1/2. 

I hope to have a last litter from my Champion bitch to a different dog (hoping that I can use one of her sons back onto one of her daughters descendants), she will be 6 1/2 to 7 by then.

As an aside to this - and please folks i think this is abhorant - but my friend imported and austrailian kelpie from a working farm in Aus, one of his bitches (granddam of my friends pup) was having her 14th litter at the age of 12 years and she has six healthy pups.  Unbelievable - what was worse the breeder was proud of this statistic!