Years ago when there were many big kennels around, a dog was shown, won a few CC's then was retired in favour of the younger generation. This allowed other good dogs worthy of CH. status to gain their "crown" and help to keep the breed gene pools healthy. These days with the fashion to be showing at every show, one dog which has won multiple CCs, a great many people will line breed to this one dog, thus the gene pool becomes smaller.

It is harder for people to learn what is a good dog and what is not as they do not see enough good dogs coming through the ranks, as the "old master" with several CC's is always blocking the younger dogs from gaining their champion status. I realise that there are breeders who will say "Ah but if the young dog is good enough he will win over the older dog anyway", but having stewarded for many years and judged, I do often wonder when a judge is faced with a dog which is known to be a multiple CC winner and another good dog with no CC's, yet, would dare to be the first to put that dog up? (Having thrown out a CC winner in favour of a bitch which I thought was a more typical specimen, with no CC's, I have been told I am not a popular judge!).

Once a dog has 3 CC's he is no less of a champion than one which has been to every show and won 60 plus CC's. I used to work in a large kennel and it was considered in that breed, that you showed a dog, got him or her "made up", then apart from Crufts or a breed specific show, you did not take that dog, to compete, instead you took his/her progeny, to show to the public and fellow breeders that you understood the breeding lines you had and could produce good dogs consistently. Your champion dog would be entered "not for competition" if you needed to take it with you.

When I issue a pedigree to a puppy buyer, I write the whole thing out in black ink, often I am asked, "Have you no champions in your lines". My answer is always the same. "There are champions in the pedigree, I write it in one colour, if you are genuinely interested in this pups pedigree, you will go and find out for yourself which dogs are which. If you ever intend to breed from this puppy at some point you will need to research the pedigree anyway".

As there are breeds whose already small gene pools are becoming smaller, due to consistently line breeding to one multiple CC winner, where do breeders go from here as good lines are lost almost daily?

As you probably know I'm completely new to this whole thing but I just thought I'd add that when I attended the show (my first one;)) on Saturday, there was one bitch in particular that I noticed for having won 9CCs? The bitch in particular was apparently 11 years of age, we're talking GSD's here too who have a life span of around 12. Surely after being made a champion or at a decent age she should have been retired? And a dog that had won 6!

Stacey x x x

i just be happy with 1 cc,in my breed which i have had 15 years but only shown for 7years, but all three have their stud book number and one jw,but my import did get best bitch import at southern countries,so if shown on the nomal reg at the kc club she would have got a cc,??

I'm still showing my 10 year old Spanish Water Dog and hope to be doing so for a number of years yet!! Unfortunately the breed has only been allowed to show for just under 2 years and she won her first BOB at a champ. show at her second ever show at the age of nearly 9.

She's won BOB at a champ. show in the import reg. and a no. of firsts and res. BOB's and a no. of BOB's and reserves at Open shows, though I must admit at the majority of shows the judge has never asked her age.

I must admit that it's a shame when you have a popular breed and the same dog is pulled out all the time, but there again should we be looking at our stock and wondering why this is happening? I must admit there are times when I've wondered why certain dogs keep winning over others, but we all have our own ideas on what we like and dislike

Hi,Everyone,
Just thought I'd make my points again, as some are missing the main point, I am trying to make, which is I am not talking about showing the dogs but about how it affects our breeding choices, and in the long term the affect on a breed's gene pool.

I have absolutely NO objection to multiple CC winners being shown

I think it is vitally important that novice judges get the opportunity to go over these good specimens.

If a dog wins 3 CC's it is a champion, but suppose after it has gained 10 CC's it is then qualified to show in a Champions class?

What if CC's were not to be awarded to dogs under a certain age? i.e only those competing in Limit and above, can win a CC, so only mature dogs are made up?

By having multiple CC winners compete in any class and not restricted to a champions class, at breed open and championship shows also Crufts. At other general championship and importantly open shows where novices are gaining experience in judging, give them a champions class to compete in.

More good mature, dogs can have an opportunity to gain a title. (I used a dog at stud who had 2 CC's and 12 Rcc's, he always met the same multiple CC winner, I think I was one of very few breeders who used him).

My point all along has been this:

If we continue to breed only to a multiple CC winner, and other good dogs are passed by, because they have not won as many CC's, as the multiple CC winner has, surely over a period of time, the breed gene pool bcomes restricted, which is surely not a good idea for the health and well being of any breed?

Why should she be retired? did she look good? id have been proud to show an eleven year old if she was looking well,why should you retire a good specimen of the breed,novices should be able to look at these dogs and see that even though they have ventured through their life they are still good,why should they stay at home
thats the trouble these days not enough people bring out their good oldies for people to see,many dogs titles are determined in junior classes but how many of these dogs GO OFF and are put away never to be seen again.
im sorry but I dont care how many CCs a dog has if he is a good specimen then so be it,bring something out better and get the tickets,
When I did my breed show best in show was out of veteren class she was lovely,no amount of excess weight absoloutly right in every way,but you would have her retired,im sorry but that would have been a crime.

Mattie I didn't mean any offence- I was simply keeping in line with what Polly was saying. You're right if she looked good then there is no reason for her not to be in the ring but I think that perhaps she should be concentrating a little on the offspring too- if they're any good why aren't they in the ring?- to follow on a good line- this doesn't mean forget the old girl at all. My point, which I didn't make very well, is she's a breeder, trying to establish kennels, so surely pushing the one that far ahead rather than having a little bit for each of them in order to continue her good line is silly Sorry if I've offended you:(

Stacey x x x

People make their own mind up about showing Champions - some will show at open shows and if asked why will say if they don't how can a novice judge have the experiance of handling "good dogs" others would never dream of it as they say you should give up & coming dog a chance of high awards. As for showing at Championship shows, it may be that they have nothing else to show or may have entered the veteran or champion stakes and feel whilst they are there may as well support the breed classes, and why not. There is a bitch in my breed who was made up at, I believe 11years, having won the last two CC after the age of 10. Jackie H

I've jusr had a brain storm

If it were made compulsory for multiple ticket holders (the dogs) to be handled by somebody different at every show after xxx no of tickets, and those handlers to be non-cc owner/handlers themselves - I wonder how much this would throw the system??

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

:) very good JO :) I agree ,I had a nice puppy he was brother to the one of the champions,when they were pups I asked a friend who was very well known to show him at ch shows he was placed each time and when he came second to his better brother in a large puppy class,the friend said you show him from now on,he never did anything again LOL so I stopped showing him,he is just a pet now.
The amount of Time & money it costs to campain dogs as well is vast,I for one would find it difficult.
Minnie my young bitch hasnt been shown much as she has the lump on her leg,anyway decided to enter blackpool and guess what? shes losing her coat ! so with the sheer volume of bitches at champ shows I wont be taking her.:(

Yes, I've been in a similar situation to you, Mattie. There's a limit to the amount that you can spend on shows and the petrol to get there, and sometimes you think you're on a hiding to nothing, although your dog is well up to standard.

I must say, I still think the multiple ticketwinners should be allowed an appearance, but as I said, anonymously with different handlers

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Jo, probably quite a lot :-). I was taken to a cat show years ago, and was amazed to find that the owners are put right out of the building during judging. I'd go further for I'd like to see what would happen if dogs and handlers were matched by last minute ballot, in all classes above junior . Or better still, if the dogs above junior were shown by white-coated volunteer 'pro' handlers, preferably from another group. Some will claim that their dog will not 'show' for anyone else, but a handler exchange could be looked upon as a good test of temperament too.

a bad handler could even make a great dog not so great!!!!an experienced handler can make the difference!! so why hand a dog over to be shown poorly and not at its best :D

Hi Dizzy, I thought in the true spirit of competition if you are showing a good dog then the dog should win regardless of handling, after all it is the dog thats competing not the handler. A good judge would surely recognise a good specimen of the breed being judged regardlessly & would make allowances for the novice handler.
I say this after being judged by Liz Cartledge several years ago & when she asked me to do a triangle(nobody told me about that!) I went looking round the ring looking for a red triangle painted somewhere, puppy came off lead but followed by my side & had to go back & say I can`t find the triangle, it`s not there!!!!!LOL. Anyway she took BOB & I went home with "handler could do with some co-ordination classes"!!!!
Christine2

unless the dog is a showing fool who stands perfect all the time using his neck and ears then the handler can make a huge difference-if say they overstretch the rear ,the dog will look a bit straight behind and the topline wont be as sharp. if it has a fabulous kneck but the handler baits it low then youd loose that crest etc, ---most of these will corect on the move but a judge often makes a final descision on the stand, a poorly presented dog can make all the difference--i know its a competition but at the same time it has to be taken seriuosly, if not the dog world will be producing poor standards of champions, which in turn will have an effect on the quality seen in the ring-, by all means have fun, be sporting but!! show your dog for all its worth!! :D

Yes Dizzy, you know that & I know that (now)so also the judge knows it as well.Talking about someone whos not a complete idiot in the ring but maybe not as well experienced as some people, I do think the best dog should win regardless, after all the judge is judging on their knowledge of dogs, not handling. As you say, we would be getting poor quality dogs being made up purely because they are handled well enough to hide the faults. I would like to think the judge has enough experience to tell the difference between a good dog handled incorrectly & a not so good dog expertly handled. I show my dogs to be judged on their merits not the way I show them.
Christine2

Hi Christine,you were very lucky in that your Judge is a very nice Lady and probably can remeber when she started showing,sadly some judges have short memorys,Showing a dog is Just That showing a dog,getting the best out of your dogs and showing to advantage,if you have a fantastic dog and he is standing like a bag of spuds and moving as bad then he will not win,believe me I had a really nice dog but he carried his tail too high,not many judges could see past his tail so the rest of him was missed,it bothered me that much I stopped showing him.Another more experienced handler may have got him to carry it a bit lower.
I judged Junior handler a while ago and I said move your dog to best advantage instead of straight up and down or whatever,and the exhibitors did just that and it was an eye opener,Im not sure if I should have said it but I did.
Ive been in showing over twenty years but confess to not showing a great lot now and I can still make an idiot of myself in the ring :) :) and do Often LOL

Hi Mattie, yes she was very nice about it & I was very lucky. I while later I was told showing is 1/2 good dog & 1/2 handling, I nearly had a heart attack! I used to get v.v. nervous going in the ring & never really showed my first dog because of it. I did the same with her pups, got anybody but me to take them in the ring & could see that I could probably do a better job. When they were older I went on a course & set my mind to learn & get over my nerves & started to show them myself & we did very well but I still get bouts of nerves, just not as bad!!! and I still make a fool of myself at timesLOL.I still think an experienced judge, should judge the dog & make allowances for the handler, unless the handler is making a complete mess of it! Know how you feel about your dog, my young dog will not wag his tail in the ring no matter what I do & even tho he doesn`t have to I know it will not go in his favour. I wish someone would say to me show him to advantage cos I`d make a show of myself but he would look great for sure!!!!!!!!
Christine2

chrisitine 2 -we'll have to agree to disagree on this one---i dont handle dogs only to disguise therye faults- but also to bring out there virtues, at the same time forming a bond with them in the ring---And im not going to just hand over that dog to someone else for the sake of it, its a team thing--me and mine !!!!!

Hi Dizzy, just putting over my thoughts as a used to be (still can be LOL)
nervous wreck in the ring!!! The Italian handler, Pia, who won the group at Crufts last year showed an interest in my dogs & I thought great, a handler like that would really get the best out of my dogs. Then I did some investigations & had a complete change of mind when I found out they took the dogs to Italy to train them & I couldn`t go with them!! Thats when I said to myself either do it or stop & like you say, we`re a team, me and my dogs & thats the fun. But I do think the judges could show some leniency to non professional handlers.
Christine2

Dizzy I agree, the experienced handler can make a bad dog look so much better than an inexperienced handler.

I have 2 photo's of my dog, one at 7mths winning a first at Darlington and one at 13mths winning a second at Crufts. My god what a difference in the way I have him stacked and that's me improving in just a few short months. I hope in a few short years I'll be looking back at that Crufts photo saying my god that's terrible :D

Stacey,sorry no offence at all was taken.(mustve been in a grumpy mood)
Its a serious subject because many years ago people would have retired a dog when they were made up,but then sadly we couldnt see the good specimen of the breed because often they were left at home,or went abroad .then the opposite started where we had breed record holders,that too is a bone of contention,because it was argued that they were denying good dogs a title,in Labradors we had a very nice bitch in the ring at one time and the owner showed her many years she was the all time cc winner,some people were very jealous and loud groans would be heard when she was in the catalogue,and true sometimes certain judges put these dogs up because they feel they have too or afraid to do otherwise,but at the end of it she was a stunning bitch and nice to look at.
Also we need to look at the point that we all strive to produce a good dog,then take them to shows ( a show career) and when we produce after many years this goal people think we shouldnt show them anymore.
(I take Pollys point about a champions class though)
I for one have had labradors for over twenty years,Ive bred some inferier litters Ill admit in the learning process,done some very silly things,had some bad luck on the way and then gave up the ghost,then quite by a fluke fell onto a really nice bitch (Mattie) I was extremely lucky that she produced cc winners and two sh champions ,now im back to the occasional show and fireside dogs,having had my wonderful time,but these well known dogs were owned and campained by someone else not me and the glory is theirs,I do confess to being very very proud though :)
As I said I do think if a dog stays fantastic all through his life then lets see them in the ring,and lets all strive to try and produce a better one :) :)

My original post was long and some of the points I was trying to make, obviously got lost. I have no problem with multiple cc holders being shown, but why not just save your multiple cc winners for Crufts and the most important show for any breed, the breed club shows? Perhaps once they have 10 CC's?
I agree that it is vitally important for novice judges to see good dogs, to have these dogs exhibited under them as part of the learning process, and to appreciate the breed standard, so that faults are not line bred to. For example..at the moment in flatcoats, there is a lack of depth, and width to allow for heartroom. Add to that we should have a pronounced forechest, like the prow of a ship..... Can you spot it? The flatcoat is a working gundog, it should have heartroom, it should not be setter like and narrow through the chest.
One point I was trying to make was this, because we do have multiple CC winners being campaigned, and younger, yet mature, dogs are not coming through because they keep meeting the multiple CC winners, novices and those who do not understand the pedigree and gene pool available, will only line breed to this one dog. This affects the available gene pool, making it smaller.
If the Multiple CC winners were entered in either a champions class, as Jo I think suggested, or were entered NFC, but were exhibited in breed classes, at Crufts and the breed club shows, (both Championship level and Open level), then other younger dogs might get made up quicker, and therefore get used at stud so retaining a bigger gene pool. (by young I don't mean winning out of junior or graduate, but winning their CC's at limit or open level).
The main point I was trying to make was, by decreasing the number of available good younger but mature, dogs coming through, how can we keep the gene pool as diverse as possible for the health and well being of the breeds.

I made up my first champion last year. she only started her show carreeer in sept 2000, won her first RCC in April, and her first CC and RBIS at our club show the next week (beating 11 champion dogs and bitches. She became a Champion by August the 3rd!

I certainly have every intention of continuing to show her! she has now 5CCs and !RCC, and at the 3 champ shows she has atended this year has had 2 thirds in Open bitch (and only a 7th at Crufts, as she was very out of coat, but that was in the top half of the class). I feel proud that we have to beat the best, and no dog will always be on form and top condition!

Wow well done!

Barbara, I don't think that Polly is saying that a Ch. should not be shown after it is made up. But dragging a dog that is on a roll the length and breadth of the country to every single show with CCs in search of the breed record is another matter. Maybe it doesn't matter in the numerically larger breeds, but in the smaller ones such a dog can 'block the system' for a couple of years.

I think once a dog becomes a champion then they should be allowed to be shown in champion only classes. After all what really is the point of having more than 3 CC's? People want a champion, you don't call a dog 4 times champion because it has 12 CC's so its pointless. If they were restricted to champion classes then this would allow the up and coming dogs to get awarded their championships (if they deserve it!)

Well as much as I appreciate a nice champion I think it is greedy to carry on taking all the tickects that could have another persons dog made up to its title.
To stand in the line up and challenge for the ticket should mean they are all good and then it is down to choices,
I will have no gripe with the person that is going for annual champion.
But to do so because you dont have a follow up and knowing that you have made a mark in the ring, it is not sporty to keep it up. on the other hand they are there to beaten as well.
I have to admit the best win is beating a champion
I will if I can pass the champion and give an equally good dog the ticket . I repeat but only if I have one as good . I do not like the person that comes under me a second time thinking because I gave the ticket once I have no choice but to do so again I find that to be cheeky because it is on the day that counts, not because you found that dog the best on that day .
best wishes Mari

I couldn't do that, lol.

Must admit I am getting more of a kick out of her Mum getting decent placings so far this year, as now that she is made up it is just hoping not to go right down! It would still be lovely to get a good place in Champ stakes or a group win at an Open show, something that we haven't done before!

I showed at 10 of the 16 ticket shows last year. this year I will only do six or 7 out of the 18. I probably do a total of 20 shows a year of any sort at most, so don't think I would rob anyone.

I do agree that an exhibit winning all the time can sour the atmosphere, and the last 2 years in my breed awards have been fairly spread about, so it does help.

In numerically small breeds if the winning dogs were retired there just aren't enough new ones at any one time to make a Quality entry. I think lack of competition can be just as discourageing. I know that I am one of the few people that enter more than one class to get some!

Who was that then Stacey?

Hi Polly, I can imagine that you weren't a popular judge :-). Not so long ago a very experienced judge from a closely allied breed drove a cart and horses through L'Ancien Régime of the breed she was judging. This judge is well known for honesty and bluntness, and piled insult upon injury by quicly writing a very long and detailed report for the dog papers. The report was politely scathing about deviations from the standards noticed in many dogs, and made it fairly clear what the judge thought of the various 'flavour of the month' dogs that were chucked out or had to take lower placings. As you might guess, this all went down like a lead balloon and I suspect that the annoyance was only made worse by the fact that the judge can't easily be written off as an idiot. I agree with you that letting more dogs have a place in the limelight can only be good for the gene pool and that its a brave judge who chucks out the dog that has been winning everything. I also wonder if striving for breed record number of CCs may not damage the popularity of dog shows. It doesn't exactly increase the excitement or interest when everyone knows in advance that it will be a miracle if Ch.30 CC's doesn't win BOB.

As in most parts of life there are arguments for and against.
I have no problem with showing a Ch at any show whether a general open or breed open or Ch show. My husband however is of a different opinion and does not advocate showing a Ch at general open shows; with one proviso that if needed the dog would be shown prior to a Ch show particularly Crufts to get the dog back into gear in the ring.
As far as showing Ch's at Ch shows why on earth not. A dog is a dog is a dog.
All dogs are there as equals and it is the judge who makes the decision whether the 'succesful dog of the moment' gets another CC or the CC goes elsewhere.
All those, who damn the exhibitors who continue to show, are doing is saying that the judge 'they' are showing under does not have the right to make their own mind up; and as that is the case why are these folk still entering the shows. Basically; it is OK to say any dog can win but not THAT one! The follow on is that the only reason THAT dog has won is because it has won previously, the logic then goes that the judge on the day cannot see any choice other than follow in line; so why enter under that judge as you cannot appreciate their impartiality in choosing the CC winner so how can they be impartial in ANY of the classes?

Anyone who has a Ch dog should keep exhibiting it at shows where its class is appreciated and whilst the dog still enjoys the game.

Another point:- How many regular exhibitors on here show at exemption shows? We do! We were at one a couple of weeks ago winning a class with one of our dogs. The show was held outside and was the first opportunity this year to get our dogs out on grass prior to the Ch show season.
Should show dogs be shown at exemption shows and if so how can YOU justify it??

if the so called "flavour of the month " was taken from the ring because it had got its 3 cc's, then it leaves the door open for a perhaps not as good dog taking the next ones-therefore making easy champions!!!---the champion is there to be beaten, if the judgings fair then an up coming dog should get there when it's at its peak- obviously providing its a better dog than the current star, england has a reputation for breeding good stock, our champions are considered worthy, other countrys have systems where you just need to campaign a dog long enough over a said ammount of others to become a champion----and it shows!!! do we really want to go the same way-its not meant to be easy,---but if your dogs good enough it should make it.---its after all a competition, :rolleyes:

I was not going to post on this thread because I can see good and bad in the idea but!!!!!!!!!!!

If all champions are retired then there will be a new champion created every 3 champ shows (unless the judge with holds) and this would be a nonsense with, in a very short time only rubbish left to be put up. Particularly in numerically small breeds.

The other side of the coin is that some, (Quite a few) judge’s jump on the band wagon of giving the ticket to the champion rather that be a little braver and give to an unknown. We all know of breeds where almost all are descended from a big winner. No problem if the dog had no faults but what if it develops something like late forming cataracts? In Labradors for example, the cataract most usually seen does not form until the dog is 8 years old, way after the breeding life is finished and possibly after at least some of those puppies have had puppies! A disaster in the making!

John

As i said earlier if you do not want the judges opinion on you dog do not enter under them. If you think the judge will only out up the 'flavour of the month' then you do not respect their opinion and so should not enter.
simple really.
As for handling I was a complete novice and made my dog up. I know I can get more out of him than anyone else could. it IS a partnership and when that partner ship works it shows.
At a recent teach-in the breeder of the current dog CC record handled him and he looked &%%**£& awful. The owner/handler took over and you had a different dog for the trainee judges to look at. Yes it shows what a difference a good handler can make not only in hiding faults but in enhancing virtues.

hi jon :D -i think if a dogs winning well it should be out there showing the way, as long as its enjoying it, --as for the comment that judges are frightened to go past them -i agree some judges are, -however thats the judge that needs sorting, not the winning dogs fault-as long as they dont enter under judges who've already given them a cc then i cant see the problem-its a bit like having a top winning racehorse and after so many wins saying it must then have an inexperienced jockey---but the horse should still perform the same---dog showing is a partnership, its part of it surely to breed a dog ,grow it, groom it exercise it , train it up and then finally take it into the ring, its supposed to be a hobby that you enjoy doing, i really dont think id show again if i didnt enjoy it, :)

I've been thinking of what to say here for ages and I think John just covered it :-)

I think Sh Ch/Ch should be shown too, can you imagine winning your first ticket over a Sh Ch with say 9 CC's or whatever. What a feeling that would be :D Like John says why can't the judge be a bit more braver and choose the dog that she really likes instead of the one that's been on a winning streak. You can't tell me that in the challenge there has never been another dog with no CC's that has been worthy of the ticket just as much as the Sh Ch stacked next to him. If a judge is at the level of giving tickets they've obviously got a fair old amount of experience, surely by this stage they have enough nerve to not go with the flow and make their own decision. If more judges behaved in this way then there would be less judges accused of/known to be.......that dreaded word "facey"

I attended a champ show recently, someone had previously mentioned to me that the judge "did as she liked" and by god she did. She gave the BCC to a 20mth bitch who has never had a CC in her life, nor was she awarded her JW and the judges critique read "Where did she come from........." Now that is fair judging in my opinion and a well deserved CC :-)

It is a long hard haul making up a champion over here in Ireland . I can tell you it takes much more than 3 shows It is totally different from England .
It is done on a point system needing 40 points , four of those wins must be a major ticket worth at least 5 points
The point system can work for the popular breeds as you can get the majors because the entry will be high . It is a slow slow process with the minor breeds as a win is not a major very often .
I also think as it is the ultimate to make up the dog and it cannot be a champion twice in one country. It should be shown in England say or the English one shown in Ireland .
That way it would have the chance to prove its worth internationally and leave the ground free for an up and coming one Mari

Over here in Spain we go by the FCI & to make a champion the dog has to have 4 CCs. 3 must be by 3 different judges & 1 must be obtained at the breed club show which is held once a year or at the Madrid show which is held twice a year and they must also have an excellent from either of those shows. Once you have those CCs & your dog is a champion they can only be shown in champion class where the winner of that class, who has the CACIB, then goes against the best of sex class (who has the CC) & which ever one wins that class takes the BOB. This way the champ dogs only compete for the CACIB & the other dogs get a chance for the CC & also for the group.
Christine2

That is somethoing I forgot to mention chris. We have the c.a.c.i.b as well but only at certain shows like patricks day and the combine ..

what breed of dogs have you got in spain,

Hi Briedog, I personally have Labradors but all breeds are over here, well most of them anyway.

Hi John, take the point about a new champion every three shows, but apart from witholding the number of CCs could be reduced. But Polly isn't suggesting that all dogs are completely retired when they are made up. If the dogs that are campaigned for breed records are really as good as their reputation they will collect the CC at every show they are entered for - maybe the breed show(s), their local Ch. show, Crufts and the show where the owner really wants the opinion of the judge or where the judge is a foreign one. That's maybe 4 CCs a year sewn up. And are rubbish Champions going to do as much damage as an endemic big winning ancestor with a problem? Plenty of UK folks depreciate 'easy' US champions, but in truth there are a lot of very good dogs in the US and elsewhere. British dogs may be best, but British dogs have been been sheltered behind quarantine until recently, and imo it will take a while to see how they really measure up to international competition.

sharon---for a couple of years i searched for a male to bring over as weve such a small gene pool-however tthe ones i was offered i felt didnt warrant the amount of money id be pulling out counting quarantine etc-but the thing that stuck in my mind most was ,on asking about pups!! and i mean babys, checking the breeding etc, when asking a price in nearly every case i was asked -well do you want it at 4 months or do you want it made up first, ---that said a lot to me about the american champion,

Dizzy, but the confidence of the owner that (s)he can make a dog intended for export up doesn't mean that the breed is in bad shape. 'Easy' titles are only bad if the breed is suffering imo.

sharon, if it had only been a couple of owners that offered the option, i agree i would of just thought they where very confident in what they where offering me :D but it was an option on nearly every puppy enquiry i made, no if"s and but"s--did i want it made up or not,