Hello all.
My story is long and troublesome, but i'll try to keep it short. - please bear with me....
I bought a yellow lab bitch (pup) 10 months ago, my first of many i hope. I did alot of reaserch into the breed before hand (as you should) and finally chose her with great care. At the time, the breeders were very profesional on viewing and all my questions were answered. My first mistake was to not actually view the parents hip score/retianal scan papers, although i was assured both was done and results were under 10.
I was also told that my bitch was not KC registerd for 'breeding' but if i wanted to breed from her, i would have to come back to them and use their stud (for free) then and only then would i recieve the KC breeding papers. Their reason for this, was to protect the blood line. I could register her myself as a showing dog if i wished, but at that time i had no wish to breed or show and besides, what harm would there be in going back to these people if it meant a free stud!
10 months on... and alot more research done....Molly (my bitch) is a fantastic example of her breed and i've changed my mind. So i went back to the breeders and told them, they seemed delighted, all was going well and then i asked for her papers.... so i could have her hip scored, and was told that it was not necessary. I was told a high Hip score was proven not to be heritary and just a money making excersize for vets and the KC. Also to obtain a correct x-ray, the dogs hips must be dislocated and i didnt want that did i. They then added that none of their dogs were hip scored and they had'nt had any problems. I was to just go back to them and not to worry....NOT TO WORRY!!!! alarm bells were now ringing madly. So i went to my vet and asked him outright, he told me that was not the case and i should need a hip score if nothing else to beed soundly. To bring it all up to date, i have managed to negotiate with the breeders into allowing her papers to be sent to direct to KClub and my vet will send the x-ray and then hopefully, i will get a hip score... i have also advised the breeders that i will not have Molly mated unless the stud is scored and papers viewed...
i cant understand why they have done it, is it to prevent people from just buying a bitch and useing them as a puppy machine?
Anyway, my questions are this...
Are hip scores really necesssary?
Is it heredity or not?
Dislocation of hips when x-raying, who is telling the truth?
and more importantly when i recieve her papers she will have their affix (which is fine) but does that mean i cant go to any other stud next time? can they put a "block" on her via the KClub?
pleae help...
vicki and Molly (woof)
PS: i contacted the KClub and they said they would'nt comment on this matter.... hmph...

IMO Hip score and eye testing are a requirement if you wish to breed from the bitch. Bad hips are thought to be part hereditry part upbringing, but I don't think breeders should take chances, at least know what the score is before you make the decision if to breed at all and which stud to use.
No hips are not dislocated during X-ray, not by a decent vet their not.
If her breeders put a restriction on her registration that any pups she has can't be registered with the KC - it has been know, I think, that you can argue the case with the KC to have the ban lifted.
Think that answers you questions I'm sure other will fill in the gaps I have left. JH

I’m sorry to hear you are having troubles but as far as your questions are concerned:-

Are hip scores really necesssary?

In my opinion breeding without hipscoring would be irresponsible. Labradors are a big active dog with an average hipscore of around 16

Is it heredity or not?

Good question! Good hips are inherited. BUT, not all bad hips are inherited, some are what I call inflicted meaning due to accidental damage maybe at birth of at a young age before the bones have set’

Dislocation of hips when x-raying, who is telling the truth?

NO! this is rubbish!

and more importantly when i recieve her papers she will have their affix (which is fine) but does that mean i cant go to any other stud next time? can they put a "block" on her via the KClub?

Providing the papers have not been indorsed “Not For Breeding” you can use any dog you like.

Regards, John

Did the KC actually confirm that she is KC registered. There is no reason why you shouldn't have recieved her KC papers, albeit with an endorsement 'progeny not eligible for registration' which would mean you couldn't register puppies from her without them lifting it. However the endorsement will only be upheld by the KC in the case of didpute, if you signed that you were aware of the endorsement, and the conditions under which it might be lifted!

If you did buy your pup without the KC reg then unfortunately you are at the mercy and whim of the breeder, who still own her in the KCs eyes! did you agree and sign something that stated she was without papers.

Hip scoring and eye testing are vital measures at reducing the chance of breeding hereditary problems, and should be undertaken by any breeder worthy of the name! When the hips are xrayed, the legs are pulled straight while the dog is unconcious or heavily sedated!

Also a Labrador should be at least Two years old before being bred from!!!

Hi Vicki, I'm not quite clear on whether you have the registration certificate or not. If you do, look on the right hand side, in the column under the Registration No. At the bottom in bold type you will see the word 'Endorsements'. If there is nothing written after it, you can breed to any dog and register the pups. If it says 'progeny not for registration', you can still breed, but the Kennel Club will not register the pups. The only person who can lift that endorsement is the breeder. Most breeders have conditions for lifting the 'progeny not for registration' endorsement and usually they will be (1) that the dog is of good enough quality to breed from; (2) the owner is knowledgeable about the breed and will place the pups well and follow them up; (3) that all the necessary health checks have been done. Some breeders will also refuse to lift the endorsement if they think the dog is going to be mated with an unsuitable partner. Some may disagree, but imo it would be unethical to refuse to lift the endorsement unless your dog is mated to one of the breeders own dogs, but ethical or not, I doubt that there is much you can do about it if you agreed to that as a condition when you bought the pup. One other point – my breed is bigger than a lab, but I wouldn’t lift the endorsement on one of my pups until it is 2 years old.

I do feel sorry for you. I hate it that the people who sold
your puppy were down and out liars.
I agree with what everyone has said here so far.
Just one point if your pup is a year old, then for the breeder
to register the pup will cost them £60-00 with the kennel club.
I just looked in the breeds suppliment to check on price and
that is what it said. So your breeder may not part with
their cash for getting her registered. If she is under a year
the cost will be £12-00 so the breeder should hurry up unless
she wants a large bill.
All pups should be registered or they are not considered
pedigree dogs, ( I do know of the other registration that
a lot of people as using now, but I shall now pass comment)
With most breeds hip scores are important. They are put
to sleep and the vet will lay the dog and take photo's
they do NOT dislocate the hips. Yuk! The only reason they
are put to sleep is because a dog would not stop moving.
The hips can be placed in the best position for the vet to
get photo's. My best advice to you is do not use their
stud dog no matter what. They are obviously telling you
a pack of lies. Out of interest their dog is not the father is
it?? I am sure if you look on the site under search, you will
find a good stud, a good specimen of the breed. Breeding
should never be done lightly. What ever the breed. Plus
you need to get her eyes tested. If you are going to breed
then get advice from the labrador experts. Do not be afraid
to ask their advice, any good breeder will spend hours on the
phone.
Nutkin

Firstly, a big Thank you! to everyone who took the trouble to answer my posting.
You people have been great!
Brainless and Sharon:
Regrettably I have no KC papers, and I don’t think she is registered, as I remember signing a declaration at purchase to say my bitch was "KC nil" which probably means I will have to tie myself with the breeders (excuse the pun)
Whether that is a good thing or not, time will tell…. all I know is that these people have lied to me before (saying her parents were scored) and if this experience has taught me one thing, it is never to except things on face value, always ask for proof.
I would now never consider bringing her to stud without full knowledge of hip/eye scores and checking that her stud is not her father (isn’t that illegal?)
It seems that endorsements are a common thing these days and designed to protect any bitches sold from exploitation, maybe I just need to convince these breeders I am genuine.
I understand that no bitch should be put to breed under 2 years old and should be left 18 months between matings (for her own health) and I have no intention of putting my little girl through a life of continuous breeding for personal gain.
I constantly question my desire to breed dogs, it’s certainly not for the money. Probably because I love dogs to bits and i was brought up with pups (my parents were collie breeders back in the 70's) But I still wonder is that a good enough reason?
I'm glad that my hip scoring questions were answered so well and my initial feelings were correct, dislocation was another fib.
Nutkin:
I never realized it cost £60.00 after they were a year old (molly is 10 months now) and this puts a new perspective on things, maybe I should contact them again and let them know.

What has been obvious by all my reply’s is that I don’t have much choice if I want to breed from her, I’m stuck with these people (oooh I’m dying to say the name)
But you never know, maybe this will all turn out fine if I tread carefully, either that or I will put my dream to bed and have my little girl spayed.
I'll keep you posted.
vicki

Vicki, sorry to say it, but I suspect that you might be better to love Molly and think about getting another bitch in the future to show and maybe breed from. If the breeders haven't registered her, chances are that they have no intention of doing so, and I doubt that you have any comeback as you signed something saying 'KC Nil'. The other possibility as Barbara said, is that they have registered Molly, but in their own name. In that case, as you say yourself, you are in their hands, and I wouldn't be surprised if they want some the pups, as well as insisting that you use their stud.

Mating Molly to her father would not be 'illegal' in any sense, and although others will disagree, I think that a father/daughter mating can be quite justifiable n some circumstances. The catch is "in some circumstances". To breed that close you need to know the pedigree and every dog in it upside down and inside out, especially with regard to healt problems like HD. The breeder also needs to know exactly why you are making that choice. Even then things can go wrong, so you have to be prepared to follow up every pup in the litter closely and long-term, and be prepared to take full responsibiliy, financial and otherwise, for problems that might arise.

Even if the stud dog isn't Molly's father, it sounds as if you don't have confidence that Molly's breeders will give you good advice, and most people need a shoulder - or several :-) - to lean on when they start off breeding. The shoulder doesn't have to belong to Molly's breeder - of the many people who helped me, the one I'm most grateful to was the owner/breeder of the first stud dog I used. But for most, the breeder of their foundation bitch is also their mentor, at least until they get to know other people in the breed. Also, you think Molly is the best dog in the world - and so you should - but if her breeders are questionable, you ought to get someone independent and experienced in the breed to look her over, because she may not be suitable for breeding.

Finally if you do decide not to breed from Molly, you don't have to give up your dream of breeding. A few people hang round show rings planning for years before they get their first bitch, and others are just lucky enough to buy a really good quality first bitch from a good breeder. But if you ask every breeder who posts here, I'll bet that a good few will tell you that the first bitch they bought was a "mistake" that they loved and learned from, and that it was their second bitch that they started breeding with. Best of luck whatever you do.

Hi Vicki
If there is anyone here who gets the gundog BRS they might be willing to let you know if your bitch has been registered if you give them the details privately?

I only get the working section so can't help.

Christine

Thanks Christine, I now have somebody looking through the BRS for me.
Just to keep everyone up to date:
I contacted the breeders today, to ask if I could bring molly over to see them sometime (a bonding thing) they were a little short with me and said they were very busy. They didn’t actually say 'no' but I got that impression...they said they'd call me when they weren’t so busy.
Oh dear.
Still, I suppose it is very time consuming breeding dogs....
Vicki

I have the gundog BRS for pups born about a year ago (my Foggy was) if that helps, you can e-mail me by clicking on my name.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Vicki I think you should just forget about those breeders, they sound little better than puppy farmers and you obviously care about your dog much more than they care about theirs.
They have lied to you and treated you badly, just cut ties with them.

Hello everyone.
Once again, a big thank you to all your reply's you have truly been the most helpful and supportive bunch I have come across since I bought Molly.
But you know, I think I may have got my priorities wrong.
Between you all, you have made me see that it is not really important whether I can breed from Molly or not, its Molly herself that matters.
So what, if those people want to be like that, its only themselves that will lose out in the end, because they wont get to see one of their pups grow and reproduce.
I know that I would NEVER agree to anything that could jeopardize the welfare of my girl or her pups. (if she had any)
So my true question was answered for me.
Don’t get me wrong, I will still follow up any leads I have with the BRS, but now I’m looking at it from a different point of view.
You are right, your first bitch should be the one you love and learn from and that’s why I have become an ‘on-line’ member with the Kennel Club and Champion Dogs (seeing as everyone here is so kind) My next step is to go along to some Dog shows and see others in action - meet and talk with people about the breed.
Get to know my Lab better and enjoy her for who she is.
(sorry its a bit sloppy, but its the best I could do)
Hey, you never know, she may be a natural in the field!!!!
vicki
PS: if anyone knows of any good Dog shows coming up, i'd be interested xx

Hi again Vicki, for dog show dates, try www.ourdogs.co.uk and click on 'show calendar'. 'General & Group Championship Shows' lists the big championship show dates for 2002, and 'General Shows' gives the Open and Ch. shows for the current month. Some people get touchy about being asked questions before they go into the ring, but you'll soon fall into converstion with someone who will introduce you to other people - and before you know it, you'll be part of the ringside furniture :-). It would also be an idea to join the relevant breed clubs. On the Our Dogs site, go to Club Directory for the names and addresses of the Secretarys. Some of the clubs will probably have web sites too, and the gundog folks here will be able to advise you on which clubs to look at. You could think about getting your newsagent to order one of the weekly dog papers - Our Dogs or Dog World. At first the show reports and breed notes will look like boring double dutch, but once you start going to shows you'll soon be reading them avidly :-). Even if Molly never graces a show ring, there is no reason not to take her to a ringcraft class if you can find one nearby. She may not learn anything useful to her, but you probably will! With all that and turning Molly into a working whizz., you're going to be busy :D