I am looking for help please.

I have a border collie who is 14 weks old now. He began obedience training at 12 weeks old. He was, when we bought him quite a nervous dog. Now, the lady that teaches me has told me that smacking him when he is doing wrong is acceptable. If the dog knows the come command and doesnt do it and walks off I am to smack its bum.

Now albeit under duress I have done this and the dog wets itself when I go after it if he hasnt come to me. Also when I tell him to sit he sometimes wets then if he hsnt done it forst time and he sees me coming.

Obviously I must be going about this the wrong way but the thing is her dogs are excellent and well trained, extremely well trained in fact. I am wondering if I persist in correnting the dog in this way if it will get over the wetting stage or will I make matters worse.

I appreciate I will get a slating for this but I am genuinly asking for help so go easy:)

Many thanks

Danna

Hi Dana,

There should be no reason for you to worry about being slated for raising this and seeking advice - clearly you realise the method advised by your trainer and employed by you has caused a problem in the relationship with your puppy so you're asking how best to rectify it :)

IMO the best thing you can do is not return to this trainer and actively seek out a new one who only offers training methods and advice based on positive and motivational methods for both you and your puppy.  No good trainer ever advises harsh or violent methods of correcting adult behaviour problems ergo would never advocate using such methods on a puppy who is only at the very early stages of learning the most basic commands.  Even if this trainer (and I use the term loosely) appears to have "excellent and well trained dogs", its more likely that her own are too afraid of her to disobey :(  I'm sure that is not how you want to have your puppy grow up to feel towards you.

As your puppy was already nervous to begin with, there is no denying the fact that this will have set him back further still as he now has temporarily lost confidence in you - who should be his main source of comfort and confidence.  Find by asking at your vets, on the internet, checking community centres, local libraries, etc a few other training clubs and go along without your puppy and assess how the classes are run and how happy the other owners are with the results they've achieved.  Crucially, check out how happy the dogs appear to be - no cowering, flinching, wetting themselves and no evidence of being shouted at, smacked, dragged, having choke chains employed etc!

In the meantime until you find a suitably experienced and caring trainer, it is better to try and just teach your puppy basic commands at home, in the garden etc using treats and toys as rewards for when he gets things right and ignoring any mistakes than to risk further damage to his confidence and your own by going to the wrong type of club.

There are many threads on here which you can use the search facility for which will give you much advice on basic positive training and also Google for "Gwen Bailey" who has written some excellent books, including "The Perfect Puppy" which although not foolproof you will find of immense benefit. 

No doubt others will be on later in the morning with further help - don't beat yourself up meantime, it sounds like you were brow-beaten into this method in the first place and at least you're looking for alternatives.

HTH  meantime, kind regards Teri :)

He was a nervous dog when you got him and now is wetting when you hit him, do you really need to ask yourself why?

That isn't a very helpful reply :(  It hink the poster realises now this approach is wrong.

Yes, Spotty dog, this person has come for help and was only doing what somebody who she thought was a proffessional "it must be the right way if a trainer says so" has told her to do, now she wants to correct that so well done :)

You need to start over with yur poup to build a trusting relationship.

Teri has given good advice.  I would recomend the Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey.  This will help you understand your puppy and how to train it and have a positive relationship.

Also many nervous or exciteable young dogs will urinate.  You will have to ignore it and never show displeasure, as it is involuntary.

Hi I think all the advice so far especially from Terry is excellent,the Gwen Bailey book perfect puppy is very good,and also puppy school by Gwen Bailey 7 steps to the perfect puppy it has some great advice tips q&a sections and some great pictures showing you how to use hand commands,i have them both and am finding them invaluable,i think its a shame when you take your dog along to a trainer thinking they know best and they cause you more problems, we dont have many training classes here,one i knew i definitely wouldnt take my dog too and the other one i went to watch one eve,with my pup i came home and decided also that wasnt right for her so am reading the two books and giving it a go myself,and although we have some problems she is after all still quite young we are getting there,i would do as suggested check them out on your own first speak to people after the class outside maybe so you can grill them a little bit more and then go with your instinct, i think you will know this time around if it is the right one for you both.Best of luck. 

Anyone who has read the rather disturbing reports on the Milgram experiment, where people (who were in fact actors) were repeatedly given (apparently) very high and painful electric shocks by people who believed they were helping in an experiment, can understand that once someone is in a position of authority, as many dog trainers are, it is human nature to do as they say - a bit worrying but it's a rare person who can find the strength to say No.

Danna, I am curious as to whereabouts you are? I agree you should not feel worried about coming on here to ask for help in this, so don't be :)

Yes, it's wrong for your instructor to be so harsh on you and your young dog. It is totally counterproductive, the methods he is teaching you, and your dog will start to mistrust you. Any instructor worth their salt, whatever their methods, would realise your pup is scared and introduce some other method of getting recall, trainers do need to be flexible.
If his/her dogs are well trained, it is because they are middle of the road dogs - neither very sensitive nor very strong - who have learnt to obey through fear. They may not show it, but over the years they have learnt how to work with him/her to avoid being punished. IMO a very sad state of affairs indeed. A very sensitive dog would be terrified and a strong one would have bitten him by now.

I spent a very short time :D with a trainer who used this method, and left after an hour - I wonder if it is the same one? He also advocated slapping dogs oni their back if they forged forwards in heelwork, which is ridiculous when we have helpful tools now such as the clicker which shows a dog just where to be.

Whereabouts are you, out of interest? Maybe someone can recommend a good trainer for you and your pup.
Try www.apdt.co.uk for starters, but go along to watch a class first to make sure you are happy with methods used.

Good luck
Lindsay
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Where do you live Danna?  Someone on here might know of a good training club in your area. 

I have a Border Collie who I do obedience with and your trainer is definately going about it the wrong way.  You need to concentrate on getting his trust back now and having fun while training.

Let us know and we will see if we can help find you a good club.

Well done for realising you are not doing things the right way.

Sandra

I endorse advice given so far and would say, please talk to some other trainers or try another training class to see for yourself what else is possible.  I would say that smacking doesn't help but then I've had the privilege of knowing some great trainers who use kind methods and seen what lovely dogs result.  I think if you did the same, and you saw the wonderful, trusting relationship that you can build with a dog through kind methods, you would want to work with your collie this way.

Totally agree with all the advice given by Teri.  Don't beat yourself up about this.  You are merely following the advice of a so-called expert.  Check out the APDT website.  They have a list of training classes and, at this age, it would probably be better to take him to puppy socialisation.

Good luck and don't worry.

Annie

If you tell us where abouts you are Darling Buds we could put you in the right direction for a good training class. By the way we hold classes in Lancing, West Sussex. Good Luck on your search.

Imagine you were sent to Mongolia and that no one else in the house or village you were staying in spoke English.

Would you consider it reasonable that after say, two weeks, you should know several words without fail under all sorts of conditions.

Would you also consider it reasonable that if you made a mistake that you should be physically punished?

How do you think that would affect your learning?

Do you think you learn more quickly in a relaxed and supportive atmosphere or one where you fear violence?

All dogs are different, some are very sensitive and will "shut down" in the presence of fear, others are insensitive enough to be able to put up with a fair amount of abuse with no OUTWARD ill effects.  Generally fear inhibits learning and a lot of dogs that "appear" well trained are in fact exhibiting suppressed behaviour.

If you think violence is an acceptable method of day to day management then no doubt you will continue to use it.

If, like me, you think using violence demonstrates that you have lost control and that you do not have enough tools in your box to be able to avoid it, you will not.

My dogs are my loved companions, why would I want to hit those that I loved?

That's a bit harsh Tohme.  The OP stated she only did it because she was told it was the right thing to do.

>My dogs are my loved companions, why would I want to hit those that I loved?

And this is suggesting that the OP doesn't love her dogs IMO - not very fair at all.

Just thinking about this - in general, as I think was pointed out, the pup would do better at an actual "socialisation" class, which is usually relaxed and dog and owner can learn to do basic obedience, but where more emphasis is put on learning to get on with other dogs and how to interract with them; this is invaluable for the future.

The instructor suggested the pup should be smacked when it has "done wrong" , but it's highly unlikely the pup has any idea of doing anything wrong. Unfortunately, dogs often do look as if they are guilty, but they are resonding to the situation/body language, even uncertainty, and show submission.It's very hard for youngsters to do obedience with so much going on, and often a pup will hesitate, trot off, look at other dogs etc... as training progresses, attention goes more to the owner and the dog learns to obey with distractions :)

Lindsay :)
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Tohme you are an utter disgrace, any one can read the posters first post quite clearly and you write such a disgusting response to her, yet another person looking for help will probaly never return, yet another dog which might have benefited from this (apart from you) excellent board is now at risk.
I think you should consider, for the sake of dogs, your abilty to post sensible replies on here or anywhere else to do with dogs.

When a translator is unavailable, I would think it completly unreasonable if it was suggested to me that I need to beat "understanding" of my English into Mongolian Villagers. Likewise in reverse.
However, when I finally find that decent Bank of Translators in Mongolia, I would find it equally unreasonable that they berate me for not have a clear grasp of translation in a Foreign Land,
*before* I had already discovered their services.

Hi Darling Buds, add to the list, "check your local rescue centre for decent reward based kind training clubs.
*If* they are like me and mine, they will have a list.
Anyway, being a local supplier of dogs, I am sure they would like to know about this lady and her ways.
Where this is a list, there is always a "black-word of mouth", wink wink.
Please PM me with her details, in case she is in my area.

Tohme, whilst I agree with your line of reasoning totally, I think many of us when we were learning about dog training went along to someone who we thought knew better and did what they told us to do.  All kinds of clever theory (much of it still believed today!) was used to back up this form of training and to quash our objections.  It is only experience that informs us that these trainers weren't quite all they professed to be and that there is a much better way.

Actually, Tohme's point about us being spoken to in Mongolian is very valid, and one which should always be kept in the front of our minds. Our dogs don't speak English!!! So it's pointless punishing them for guessing wrong sometimes.
:)

I'm sure it was valid, but don't you think it was a little bit mean?  The OP doesn't need criticism, they're already beating themselves up about it as it is.  She was merely following, unfortunately, the wrong advice.  Tohme made it sound like she'd just decided to belt her dog off her own back.  Just the way it came across - I know how I'd have taken it if I was the OP.

I thought Tohme was just offering the OP questions to ask herself so that she could make her decisions on a rational basis, rather than her gut reaction. She didn't appear to be slating the OP, nor telling her what to do - in fact it seemed to me that she was confirming the OP's suspicions that the trainer's advice was wrong (and why!). ;)
:)

Ah well, you must know tohme and understand the way she comes across better than I do!! :D

I thought so too, JeanGenie, but you can often read posts more than one way if you don't know the person.

Tohme's reply was very straightforward, as her replies to any question, always are. Tohme sees the logic is many things where others see chaos and confusion.  Her replies always make me think for myself. Which, when you think of it, is the best way to teach. Her rational approach should never be defined a 'critisism'. Her logic and basic common sense amazes me.

Ok ok, I was wrong!!! :p

I'm up there with the Mongolian analogy, use it myself. However, i dont know Tohme or her/his style either, and it "appeared" as criticism of the OP to me. Now explained, i have re-read, and i can see.
However, its a bit obscure. Being encouraged to think for yourself is indeed the best way to learn, and using anology is a good tool for education.
However, I find the best way to teach is to put yourself into the mind of the pupil (empathy).
Darling Buds in this case.
Your message is then communiocated, aborbed, and understood better.
I feel it was plain why Tohme's post could have been seen at "first read" as offensive.
But thats the point, its not verbal inter-personal communication, its plain black and white between strangers.
Its not without relevance that the 4 people that "saw" offence dont know Tohme, and the 2 people that "saw thru it" do know Tohme.

Or huge yellow on green lettering in my disability settings :D

Have to say I agree with your reading of tohme's post.  Maybe because I tend to be a bit blunt myself

Spot on Tohme

I actually train hands free or hands off & use T Touch to build a close bond with all my dogs.

I would never condone/advise/consider smacking a dog & no matter how well the dogs are trained hitting them is a big no no with me as is shouting at them

I am a great dog watcher & it is interesting & sad to see some dogs in the show ring apparently happy, but that on closer study are showing fear ! Especially in breeds like BCs & cavaliers that should have confident out going personalities(that lead to gay tail carriage in the ring), but that behave like robots

i find tohmes reply rude....it may contain some sensible issues but is very aggressive in ts language...using "YOU YOU YOU YOU "repeatedly infers that the original poster is the one in the wrong. Can you not phraseyour reply in a less antagonistic form tohme?

Unfortunately, if people say 'ONE should do so-and-so', or 'ONE ought never to do such-and-such' it sounds very dictatorial and stilted, because very few people use that language when they're speaking ... unless they happen to be Royalty!

Tohme advised patience, realising that the dog didn't understand, that training is best in a relaxed atmosphere, and that using violence was wrong - all things that the OP subconsciously knew (which I think is why she posted) but hadn't put into words and so couldn't challenge this bad trainer. Now she can ...
:)

I agree the use of "one" can be awkward, if correct and less ambiguous :)
I found her post fine, Tohme is always consistent and fair, if firm :)

Lindsay
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I agree with Tohme.  Jean Donaldson uses an analogy like this in one of her books and when I first read it, it really made me think and made sense completely.  I don't think that Tohme was saying that the OP wants to beat her dog, I think she was just pointing out how to rationalise the situation.  I see many dogs every day that look fine but in fact are showing signs of suppressed behaviour.  I think the so called trainers collies are probably showing that and to be perfectly honest IMO that is not a trained dog.  I remember when I got my first dog and cheerfully took her along to the local training class.  I arrived with my new collar and lead and the trainer took me aside when I first walked through the door and gave me a "loan" of a check chain.  I spent the whole of the class thinking something wasn't right.  It didn't feel right for me to be half-choking my dog but, that was the way I was told.  During the class a guy placed his cairn terrier in the middle of the circle and made it stay there throughout the whole class.  At one point the terrier moved and the bollocking that dog got made my hair stand on end.  Needless to say I never went back even although I was told this was the "proper" way to train my dog.  I had never had a dog before but set out to find ways that she and I could learn together.  I made a lot of mistakes but we are still here to tell the tale.  I always think that if something feels wrong, it probably is.  YOu have to feel comfortable.  I think this is exactly how Darling Buds is feeling.  Her first dog, her first training class, doing what she is told but not feeling happy about it.  Good for her and I really don't think that Tohme's reply was insinuating that she wanted to beat her dog, I think it was explaining things "from the dog's point of view".  At least that's how I read it. 

Kind wishes
Annie

I'm sure that if you hit the trainer every time she failed to come to speak to you when you request would come running straight back to you NOT!  Why does she think that hitting a dog will make it more biddable?

Ehhh, some people, Barbara Woodhouse still lives :d

Hi

I haven't read any other answers to this post, so forgive me if I repeat what has been said, but after reading your post I just had to respond to you.

Do not hit your dog, ever!!  This lady(??!!!!***?) who told you to do so is way off beam.  She may have very obedient dogs but a) they may be of a very different temperament than yours, more 'hard' and forgiving of human crassness, bullying and ignorance and b) only obeying her out of fear not co-operation.

Your dog is very sensitive, hence the piddling when you physically abuse him/her.  Are you absolutely sure your dog understands what you want?  If not, train some more.  If your dog still does not comply simply put him in the position you asked for and keep repeating until he gets it right, then praise. If you are training 'waits' and 'stays' and these are what are not being obeyed it may well be that your dog lacks the confidence to be left on his  own.  If this is the case training won't help, building your dog's confidence will.

You poor thing. :-( It is terrible whena person who should be trusted tells you sometihng so stupid. Collies are very sensitive dogs. Your pup is not being naughty when he doesn't come to you, he simply doesn't understand yet. He is still very young and you haven't had him long. The reason he is wetting himself is because he is trying to say, please don't hurt me, I'm scared and don't know what I've done wrong. He is basically trying to pacify you.

Find yourself another trainer. The reason her dogs are doing as they are told could be anyone of several. She could well have picked them up as 6 week old pups and been training them from then. They could come from a line who is stronger in their temperament and not so sensitive. They could be so used to her harsh handling they do not react anymore. Maybe even she isn't like this with them! I have got three, two of which were adult rescues and one I've had from 6 weeks. They are very different to train because the one I've had from a pup can be handled in any way at all, he is so used to it he will accept anything. The others can be funny about certain things such as having their collars held while going through the weaves. (Thank goodness for channel weaves! ;-))

Someone who clicker trains may help you more if your dog is very sensitive or gets funny about being handled. Where do you live, I may be able to put you in contact with someone who can help.

Good luck :-)

I dont take anything said on here lightly. I probably deserve it and ignorance isnt an answer. In my defence I will just say that having not had a puppy before and having got 2 recommendation for this trainer I thought all would be ok. I went in blindly really. Thing is when you trust someone to know what they are doing, you trust them. My fault entirely.

Please dont slate the others for giving me a telling off its what I deserve and I have certainly learned a very valuable lesson by it. Everyones entitle to their opinions.

You cannot beat me any more than I have done myself. Thanks for all the help guys much appreciated.

Danna
PS. I am in Blackpool btw

Hi Danna
I don't think anyone was slating you, and don't be hard on yourself, we all have to start somewhere and the fact that you felt something was amiss with these training methods speaks volumes.  I would suggest looking for a new training class, with a trainer that uses positive methods - it's worth looking here ADPT

Same here your giving yourself to much of a hard time, once you start training properly the dog will trust you completely their not like humans and they dont hold a grudge, so stop beating yourself up and start finding a good trainer, from reading your post you no what you've done wrong you dont need anyone else to tell you, just try and rectify the situation by finding a new trainer.   Good on you that you had the bottle to question what was happening and even coming on here knowing what would happen. 

Warm regards Susan

Chin up Danna, dog ownership and best practices are all part of a giant learning curve - so don't keep beating yourself up about it ;)  If you can find a good trainer, and better still first locate a specific puppy socialisation class, you will be able to turn things around.  JenP's link will hopefully help you!

Stay positive - you clearly love your puppy and with a bit of help and patience you'll soon find that you have a wonderful life-long bond together.  Best wishes, Teri :)

Well that's another poster who has lasted a whole 22 hours 20 minuets under tohmes condescending eye. I lost count long ago how many times posters complained about her (or whatever gender it is ) arrogant, condescending attitude  predictably propped up by her personality counterparts proving this site is not about dogs, its about peoples egos. Ah well almost 22 hours of her rantings is longer than most manage.
"Next victim please"

I have pm'd you privately with a no. to call.

That wasn't the most helpful, calming post, was it, Realistic? Is it time for another read of the ToS, especially the bit about personal attacks? ;)

Realistic, I have met Tohme in "real life" and she a nice lady; very knowledgeable.

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay, I don't think anyone's disputing whether Tohme is nice or not, I'm sure she is, I think it's just the way her comments were put across that people were questioning :)

True - they are the sort of intelligent, deep posts that need careful reading to fully appreciate, rather than a quick skim. ;)
:)

Danna,

While you're looking for a kinder trainer, have a look at CLICKER TRAINING :D   There is plenty to read on it and you will find that it is much kinder to both you and your pup :)  (positive rewards) There are books available and some clickers even come in a package with a book to help get you started (Crosskeys Books).  In a nutshell it's how dolphins are trained, and you cannot train a dolphin by hitting it ;) (NO reflection on you but on the 'trainer' ;) )   I'd really like to congratulate you on having the sense to question the 'trainers' methods and do something about it, it's so difficult when someone is supposed to know what they are doing and you are just beginning.

Personally I don't have a problem with Tohme's post.  Never a wiser word has been spoken and I'm in full agreement with her in the wider context.   However, I can see how some people can see it in relation to the OP.   It's the way of the world and people do perceive things differently.

You never stop learning about dogs and I'm sure if we are honest with ourselves, we have all made mistakes.  I don't know of one person that was born a perfect dog handler.

DB, I haven't posted because you are getting excellent advice here.  I've came across many so-called trainers in my time who use nothing other than physical violence to train dogs.  And have had many an argument with them too.   Don't be so hard on yourself, it happens unfortunately.  :-(

Darling Buds, I hope that you took the post as it was meant, not as a slating but as others have rightly identified as looking at it from another's point of view. 

It is inevitable that whenever someone posts it can and may be interpreted in many differing ways depending on the person reading it.

It is impossible to create no offence in life because no one has a crystal ball and people can be offended by anything. (even if you say nothing) :D

I have been where you are, and only by shifting my perspective could I move forward, hence I thought it might help you.

It was not written as a "telling off" merely as an observation.

If you had not had the sensitivity and questioning approach that you do, you would not have posted in the first place..........

Hope all goes well