On BBC2 last night? Am not sure what I found most disturbing - the employees or the kosher <sp?> killings. I managed to get half way through but bottled out on the rest. V.disturbing.

Pork is definitely off the menu in our house.

I saw about 30 seconds of it and turned it over couldn't watch things like that.

I watched it, thought it was horrible from start to finish :(

I watched it - I agree the religious killings were the worst - I managed to watch it all the way through with a few tears here and there.

It just confirmed once again why I am a vegetarian.

I have to say, that even if I wasn't a vegetarian for animal rights reasons - im not sure I would want to eat meat for a while following that, is it only me that thought it was dirty and the 'mess' was unorganized! Disgusting.

I have to say i thought the tattooed bloke who watched the pig having a heart attack and stepped over it was pretty appalling. The mess was disgusting and you can only imagine the stench in there.

I thought the religious killings were just appalling. Really, really shocking that something could be allowed to die like that.

I watched it all, thought it was ok, nothing new.  I will still eat meat as before, its something that has just not bothered me.
Dawn.

I didnt see it but having been to many many slaughter houses & worked with a number of knacker men, I have to say most of the ones I know have been diligent in their work & had much loved pets at home so are basically animal lovers who just  have a "job" to do. never known anyone who does religious slaughter though cos not much call for that round here!

I thought the attitude of one specifically was disturbing - I quote: "you can get away with legalised murder every day..."

Apparently they got into religious slaughter because they were going out of business...

I didn't watch it, because I've seen similar stuff in the past and felt there was no need to distress myself all over again. 'Ordinary' slaughter appears bad enough (especially when it's botched), but religious killings are abominable. I eat vegetarian at Indian restaurants, because I know how much the meat-producing animal suffered prior to death.

Did you know that such meat is allowed to be sold without a warning? That the parts unwanted by kosher and halal butchers are just bunged in with the 'ordinary' meat in the shops? Appalling. I firmly believe that religious slaughter should be banned in this country - there should be no exceptions to the pre-stunning law.

Having worked in a slaughter house one summer during my teen years and grown up slaughtering pigs on grandads farm have to say it was nothing new and yes the smell if awful but you soon stop noticing it bit like the diary after all the cows have been milked or waiting to be milked.

As my fathers family are jewish I have spent some time chatting with the Rabbi re the religious slaughtering and yes it was a necessary method before we had science to show infections and 'bad' meat as any marking on an animal could mean disease to man if they ate it so they are not allowed to kill an animal with any markings or unconcious incase it is poison to us.  I don't agree it's necessary today when we can stun an animal and know that it's safe to eat, religous killing is truly awful but the meat quality is no different than any other the 'offcuts' are just the parts that cannot be cleaned of vessels and blood effectively so is unorthodox meat so can't be used in a religious butchers, there's nothing appalling about the meat.

The appalling bit is that we're not given the option to avoid meat from an animal that has been tortured (IMO - no offence intended to anyone) before death. It's just slipped in anonymously with the conventionally killed meat.

I did watch one similar programme a quite a few years ago now and found it sickening, but not much different to what i expected. We know pigs etc are hugely intelligent, and I just find the whole thing too much :( I did consider watching this one, but knew it would be too upsetting.

I do believe if animals are killed, it should be humanely and with "respect" - the idea of people who work in such environments treating them with disdain makes my blood boil.

I've seen on Nationwide a New Forest mare going for slaughter - it was distressing for me to watch, but it wasn't too bad as the slaughterman was an elderly man and fairly kind and she was killed outside.  I dont think she could smell blood or knew what was happening; she seemed to trust humans. I'm not sure if that was set up to be "nice" or if it was what normally happens at that particular place. I found it very sad, but I don't think the mare herself was distressed.

I've heard terrible stories re. slaughter and animals generally - years ago the International League for the Protection of Horses showed a film which was very hardto watch, showing a lot of cruelty re handling, and horses knowing what was going to happen Much of this was abroad of course, and showed just how little protection the animals got, even from vets (one of whom kicked a small tired donkey to its feet instead  of lifting it ).

A friend of mine used to keep a smallholding and would kill her own pigs, not something I could ever do, but i respect her values.

That's very worrying about the meat, Jeangenie. It concerns me that we aren't told what we (or my other half in our case) may be buying.

Lindsay
x

personally I prefer to buy halal or kosher meat as I know it has not been subjected to poor practise (as lead to BSE) if it is PROPER halal/kosher meat.

As a vegan I obviously didn't watch it, but I know where my dogs meat comes from they treat the animals humanely. The farmer actually takes the animals to slaughter herself & oversees it(don't know how she can , but understand why) as she has an organic farm & everything has to be spot on & although the animals are reared for food she still cares for them & their welfare. The saughterhouse is privately run(not one of the multiples owned by the big companies

The slaughterhouse also prepare proper kosher meat & the animals are treated correctly(I'm jewish but cannot understand why the orthodox still want meat prepared in a way that was hygenic etc 3.000 years ago, but is not needed if meat is prepared correctly)

I watched it off & on as I could'nt bear to watch it constantly, I was so upset I have'nt cried so much in ages.  I suppose I have'nt really put much thought into meat/slaughter before & have been quite ignorant about it. 
I know its all in a days work for the employees but the pig being watched as it had a heart attack was horrendous.

It has always appauled me that Hala slaughtering is allowed in this country.We are supposed to be a nation of animal lovers.
I'm also ashamed to say this was filmed about 2 miles from my house...shed a very dim light on local folk!
Archer

Did we see halal slaughtering?  Don't think so, they are slaughtered individually and not stunned first are they?  Saw non of that.
Dawn.

I saw a kosher killing on there - the cow was put into the frame, neck hoisted etc. It was not stunned beforehand.

A friend of mine who is an ex-Enviromental Health Officer had to do slaughterhouse visits as part of his job and believe me the pig having a heart attack and being watched is one small part of some of the cruel practices that go on.......boiling water being poured on cows to make them stand up after they've had a night's rest pre-slaughter etc......

I couldn't and wouldn't watch it, I'm a vegetarian and that's mainly the reason why I chose to be.

halal and kosher killings are the same if im not mistaken and there was a lengthy feature about it in the documentary which focused on kosher cow and sheep slaughter.

I thought the cow one was particually disturbing.

I thought they said halal was individual slaughter without stunning?, I saw no Sheep slaughtered without stunning, and all of them were in a line, so to speak.  Halal meat is generally Lamb or Goat, saw no Goats either.
Dawn.

Well, I saw the cow being slaughtered by Kosher methods. And it wasn't stunned first.

Yeah Chloe I saw the Cow too, but it wasnt halal cos they dont eat beef or pork, dont think they showed halal.
Dawn.

Didn't the Jewish man show how they slaughter cows as kosher meat and the Asian man and his son discussed sheep slaughter for halal meat - im sure of it because both commented on how the knife had to be clean and sharp.

Both cut the throat in one swift movement and that was it - im sure i recall seeing the sheep being strung up and then the Asian man cut their throat.

In 'normal' methods they stun and make an incision into the neck - the Asian man definitely cut across the throat.

I could be mistaken but im sure i recall seeing the Asian man and his son discussing halal meat.

lol, doesn't matter anyway.

Not sure why you think halal meat would exclude beef Dawn B

Perhaps you are confusing religions.

Islam forbids the consumption of pork, not beef.

Halal meat is NOT generally goat or sheep. Dawn B It is any meat, bar pork, that has been raised and killed in a particular prescribed method.

Yeah, I was thinking outloud, Beef is not generally eaten by Indians or Pakistani's, in fact I don't know of a single "halal" butchers round here (and there are a few) that sell any beef items at all.

The differences between halal and Kosher are really weird.  Halal meat can never be anything that lives on both land and water, like a frog, no blood, alcohol or carrion can ever be consumed, sea animals that can be vicious like Sharks can never be eaten, they also cannot eat any carniverous animal, like Lion, Cheetah, dog or any bird of prey.  Kosher is a bit more liberal and some sects do allow Pork to be eaten.
Dawn.

The consumption of beef is not related to nationality ie indian or pakistan, it is related to religion.  In both countries there are muslims, hindus, christians and jews etc.

It is the Hindu belief that prevents the consumption of beef.

The definition of halal and kosher meat is not restrained to the type of animal but various other factors have to be considered and met and of course the difference between halal and kosher is that the former is that which is "allowed" by islam, and the latter is related to judaism.

>Kosher is a bit more liberal and some sects do allow Pork to be eaten.

Really? Some Jews are allowed to eat pig products? (Kosher being related purely to Judaism, not Islam.)

I would also be interested in knowing which Jewish sects permit the consumption of pork JG...............

You can find it here Tohme.
Dawn.

http://www.myhalalshop.com/

I think you are confusing religions again Dawn B.  This HALAL site refers to muslim sects not jewish sects.....................

Jewish religion in itself does not permit the consumption of pork, liberal rabbis notwithstanding..........

Sorry cant see that!  It says.
"Some elements of Jewish and Islamic dietary laws are common, while some are not. Here are some major differences."  Then goes onto listing them, surely that means the difference between Jewish and Islam?  It then states that some liberal Rabbi's allow the eating of pork products.

Anyhow, I really dont give a monkeys either way, I'll still eat my meat! :D
Dawn.

There are liberal priests who tolerate practices which are forbidden by the Christian church ... ;)

It is wrote into jewish law that a man that uses animals in his line of work (e.g. horse to pull a cart) has to by their law feed the horse before he can eat himself.  Also if he uses an animal that is loaded like a donkey they have to unload the animal before either is allowed to eat. 

As for the food they eat they cannot eat any animal with cloven hooves.

In every religion there are pros and cons and this is the reason I chose not to follow one.

>As for the food they eat they cannot eat any animal with cloven hooves.

But beef is a traditional jewish meal (killing the fatted calf, etc) and cattle have cloven hooves, as do goats and sheep (again, traditional food).

I hope it is written into EVERYONE's law that they must feed their horse before they feed themselves and unloaded before eating!!!!!

I really do not know where people get these ideas from, of COURSE you can eat animals with cloven hooves if you are jewish, you can eat sheep, cows and goats.

I know I don't want to know the answer, but why did the pig have a heart attack? And is kosher meat killed by letting it bleed? Or do they kill it by slitting it's throat so it dies instantly?

I didn't watch it, couldn't if I tried, I would have thrown up. I can't even walk into a butchers without going funny.

They said the pigs just sometimes get in that state... it was lying fitting and gasping on the floor. I believe the tattoed one pushed/kicked it with his foot whilst the bloke with the stun gun explained what was happening and only then finished it off.

With Kosher meat they slit the throat and he animal bleeds to death - there are studies on the time it takes to lose conciousness and I believe the method of restraint is also important to the process and how the animal copes with it.

I thought if your throat was cut it was instant death. Like you Chloe (or is it Carla???) I grew up around horses and seeing colts castrated in the field and there was always one idiot who would lob one at you if you weren't careful. There were twitches and mane pulling (depending on the horse, some minded, some didn't) and other things which horrified me as a child and I have to admit, even now I would do whatever I could do avoid distressing the animal. But I am glad I missed this program, it sounds barbaric. :-(

Like most of you, I eat meat thinking it has been humanely killed. This doesn't sound humane at all. What about organic meat, is that more likely to be ok?

I'm told (by those who study such things) that when the throat is slit it takes about a minute to lose consciousness entirely, but about 4 or 5 minutes to bleed to death.

Sorry I meant WITH cloven hooves.  Tohme I know you know a lot about dogs and I dont want to seem forward but I do find your way of typing quite aggresive.  I know its been said before and people say you are obviously not agressive but over the computer sometimes you have to phrase things a little more carefully than when you speak, as you dont have the benefit of body language or facial expression. 

This explains what I mean about jewish law:
Among mammals, you you may eat any one that has true hooves that are cloven, and that chews its cud.
Of the cud chewing animals and the hoofed animals, these are the only ones that you may not eat:
The CAMEL shall be unclean to you although it chews its cud, since it does not have a cloven hoof.
The SHAFAN shall be unclean to you although it chews its cud, since is does not have a cloven hoof.
The ARNEVET shall be unclean to you although it chews its cud, since it does not have a cloven hoof.
The PIG shall be unclean to you though it has a cloven hoof, sinc it does not chew its cud. Do no eat the flesh of any of these animals."

I hope it is written into EVERYONE's law that they must feed their horse before they feed themselves and unloaded before eating!!!!!  As we know this isnt everyones law not even in animal loving England, or we wouldnt have so many cruelty cases in the news.

i must admit, I suppose I always thought a throat slit meant fairly instant loss of consciousness - suppose I watch too many films which show this in people!!
Sometimes though, you see "travel" programmes which seem to show a sacrificial animal who collapses straight away. I suppose though the poor creature is shocked and can still be conscious. I find it all hard to think about. I wish we could extend more compassion to animals who are about to die :(

Lindsay
x

But the point with this is to bleed to death - not suffocate. If the windpipe/spinal cord was severed I would have thought the death would be almost instanteanous <sp?> but this way the bleeding out of the body would take minutes to complete?

If the windpipe is severed but the spinal cord left intact the animal can still breathe through the opening; if the spinal cord is severed, numbness below the break will result (as is paralysis cases) and the diaphragm will not function, preventing breathing and causing suffocation. However during all this there will still be brain activity, and the animal will be aware of the injury.

OOw that was completely sick those people looked like they were out of wrong turn, and that fella with the tattoos i think if i ever came across him i'd punch him one theyl all looked like they were out of a funny farm, i asked twice could the telly be turned over but it was two men against me my brother and oh so i had no chance it was disgusting those poor animals.  I'm thinking about becoming a veggie now.

Warm regards Susan

With the repercussions of the program I wouldnt be surprised if he doesn't have a job for much longer, rightly so too!
Dawn.