I have been to see a litter of golden Cocker Spaniel pups, and they were beautiful. I saw the mother and father too.

They are not KC Reg though, although the breeder said the pup I was intrested in could be if I wanted her to be.

Also they are asking for £350 for her. Does this seem alot for a non KC reg pup??

They also had quite a few litters of labs, and terriers. They all seemed very looked after though.

My main worry is, I have read so much about people seeing pups, falling in love and its a puppy farm, or they have bought from a bad breeder.

The pup I was intrested in, had her first jab, she had clean ears, and looked after very well.

Does all this sound dodgey?

Please help.

Sounds like a puppy farm to me :(

Walk away.  Now.   Don't look back.    If you buy one of these puppies, you are just encouraging the greedee/breeder to breed more.

You deserve a healthy, happy pup from a checkable background.   Accept nothing less.

Margot

i dont think it does,there are so many people who will only buy 'kc' pups and who only want perfect 'show standard dogs'.go with your feelings,if its just a family pet you're after and you are comfortable with the breeder and the pup go for it.did you get to see either of the parents? you should at least be shown the mum,this gives an idea of what the pup will look like,also the temperament etc.i bought a husky pup (non kc) recently for 400 so i guess 350 is about right.good luck!

By doing this rachealr your are just encouraging the exploitation of the pups and their mothers. 

Just because you want your dog purely as a companion does not mean you should expect to be shortchanged. 

Why should you not own a dog of the equal or near equal quality to any champion within the breed?

Your pup should be from the most typical quality parents, that have had all the breed health tests to reduce the chance of being affected by hereditary disease. 

I am as proud of my Pet only pups as those that happen to have owners who have decided to show.  Many of them would do well in the ring or be excellent breeding stock if that was the area their owners wanted to get involved in.

These poor quality not health tested dogs used just to breed pups for the pet market add nothing to the breeds or their reputation, and many of them not only are not typical examples, but have heart breaking health or behavioural problems cause by the lack of care in their breeding and rearing.

If potential new owners were all clued up and insisted on well bred puppies only from health tested parents, puppy farmers woudl go out of business.

As an owner you should expect the back up of the breeder to help you rear your pups and be there for you for it's entire life.

>if its just a family pet you're after

Racheljr, the 'just a family pet' puppies, are usually (or should be) the top-quality, well-bred, pups whose owners choose not to show them. To aim to breed anything lower is showing complete disregard for both the dogs concerned and their potential owners.

EXACTLY. I know somebody who bought a pup "just as a pet". Didn't care about "papers". Aged 1 the poor dog is having to be put to sleep as she both has severe HD and other problems.

Marianne

That has got to be the highest price you can pay for a puppy :(

.i bought a husky pup (non kc) recently for 400

Goodness rachel, that sounds like a lot of money to me!  How much was a health tested Kennel Club registered puppy from a reputable kennel?? 

Another little thing too - whilst 'pet' owners may not be bothered about a dog of show standard, if they've gone looking for a breed I would assume they want a dog that looks like that breed. 

As an example, my next door neighbour is getting heartily sick of people asking her what her Border Terrier is crossed with - most popular theory being a Jack Russell :D - when she paid a fair amount of money for it.  She loves him whatever he looks like, but if she wanted a crossbreed she'd have expected to pay a crossbreed price.  Difficult to tell how a young puppy will grow up .......

M.

This is at worst a puppy famer, dealer or at best a commercial breeder.  The parents are unlikely to have been health tested or be typical let alone excellent examples of the breed matched together in order to improive upon the parents qualities.

Contact the breed clubs for your breed who can put you in touch with lost of reputable breeders that breed with the breeds, pups, and new owners welfare in mind. You may have to go on a waiting list,a dn should expect to be vetted, but then you ahve a much betteer chance of getting a healthy happy pup, whose breeder will be thewre if any problems arise.

sorry i misread your post as i was reading it quickly! good that u have seen mum and dad.as for lots of other litters?? hmmm..not sure what to make of that.as long as they are all healthy and well looked after.ask the breeder lots of questions to find out whether they could be some sort of puppy farm,but i have known people to breed more than one breed of dog and they are not puppy farms!

As well as the other excellent points raised here, one of the major issues not to support dubious breeders is that they may be avoiding KC registration for reasons which are not good for their animals - all very well having a nice pup that appears healthy, but would you not feel guilty if the reason it wasn't registered was because the pup's mum was being bred from very young, or had a litter every season until it literally collapsed from exhaustion?  This happens.

M.

Or even had been stolen?

Yes, becase think of it -it only costs £12 to register a puppy. To anyone wanting to breed for all the wrong reasons, just wanting to make money and to cut corners by not doing any health testing etc, the pup being KC reg can add value to it -so WHY aren't they spending that £12 if it can double the selling price??! Probably because they CAN'T register the pup.......

Marianne

>good that u have seen mum and dad<

Not necessarily - this is a particular bug bear of mine - being able to see both parents is not always a good thing - all it means is you can see the temperament of both parents, it does not mean the sire was a good match for the bitch (strong in her weak points and visa versa) it just means he was convenient and probably cheap :(

Run, don't walk, away from this and reassure yourself that by NOT buying you won't be encouraging more irresponsible breeding ;)

Plenty of decent breeders have more than one breed -but not "lots of litters" at the same time. It takes an awful lot of time to properly raise a litter.

Marianne

This sounds dodgy to me. Having so many litters of different breeds is a bad sign.

I can't think of a single valid reason why a breeder would decide not to register pups when they could be - so there's something suspect there.

My advice would be to walk away now.

Exactly what is happening with one of the breeders I met.  They have Cockers, Tibetans and various other smaller pedigree dogs.  To make more money they mate the different pedigrees to each other on alternate seasons (producing lovely cross breeds) and mate the pedigree dogs to the correct breed every other season, selectively registering only a few litters and selling the others at slightly less than top price.  Lovely pups but I dont know how long the bitches will last. 

THat's terrible, echo

Don't touch this pup, however beautiful. I echo everything that has been said on here.

Why not contact the breed club and get a list of reputable breeders from them, that way you will know that you are getting a healthy puppy and not lining the pockets of commercial breeders :)

When I bought my first toy poodle (from a reputable breeder) she would not KC reg him as he is black with a white paw. His mother, father and brother and sister were all KC reg, I was given the pedigree history. I'm glad I didn't walk away, he was for pet only and he is loved very much. Although I don't agree with puppy farming there is in some cases a reason for a puppy not to be KC reg so don't condemn all non KC dogs.

Guest read this http://st15.startlogic.com/~justonel/breeder.html, the difference between a responsible breeder and a backyard breeder and see the difference..

With labs, terriers and cockers, unregistered AND Sire & Dam, I'd run away!!  Contact the Cocker Spaniel Club in your area - post again if you can't find it - and they will point you in the direction of a well bred puppy.  The (small) extra that you'll pay for the registered puppy will be less than the liability of an untested litter.

Contacts for the various Cocker Spaniel clubs can be found at the bottom of the Breed Standard. Good luck - I'm sure you'll have much better luck there.

£350 is a very high price to pay for a puppy that may be blind by its 4th birthday.  Sounds dramatic but, although I understand unregistered dogs can be tested under the KC/BVA inherited eye condition schemes, in my experience they invariably are not.
Racheljr although it might be a nice idea to see both parents together, again in my experience the majority of matings that occur between dogs living together are just a convenience thing, nothing to do with carefully thought out breeding programs very often carried out that way because the breeder's bitch would not be entertained by any reputable stud dog owner.
If you want to do more than accept the word of a reputable breeder that they have chosen the stud on grounds of good temperament as well as conformation and linage issues it can always be arranged to visit the dog.

Racheljr,

People, such as myself, who want "just a pet" still expect a healthy puppy/dog, and although someone who isn't planning to show/breed may not be overly interested in the dog conforming to the breed standard, they should be looking for a breeder who is very interested in the puppies conforming - or else why would they be breeding, if not for profit?

I would say that for a dog not KC reg, the price should be half of the price of an equivalent puppy with KC regs. I believe my sister paid £500 for each of her Cocker pup's with KC reg, so I would say £350 is quite expensive, however I may be wrong.

Nat :D

I agree with you Natalie.  "Just a pet" is one of the most important jobs that a dog can do, which is why "just a pet" should be healthy in body and mind, and be a good representative of its breed, even if it is never going to see the show ring.  Why should "just a pet" be all of those things??  And to breed a litter that is all of those things cannot be done on a whim or by people with no knowledge of their chosen breed.

Exactly Val, why does everyone else always seem to word things so much better than me? LOL

You worded it just fine Natalie.  I was agreeing with you! :)

Its not always for convenience because they just 'happen to have both sexes' sometimes they are thought out in advance. A woman I know has 2 year old male, and has now got a 7 month old bitch. She's had both since puppyhood. She bought the bitch after looking into pedigree matching with the intention, if all health checks prove good, of breeding them. So in a few years she will have both parents to be seen with the litter. As long as she looks after them and cares for them I don't see the problem. :)

Sorry Missie but I disagree.  Buying a bitch puppy with a compatible pedigree (most pet breeders think that a compatible pedigree is one in which the dogs aren't related - and I would disagree with that too!) to her dog, is ABSOLUTELY no way to breed a litter of puppies. 

Let me explain the very basic fundimentals of breeding quality puppies.  You have no way of knowing how that 8 week old bitch puppy will develop and the best stud dog for her - assuming that she grows a good enough specimen and passes all her health tests for breeding anyway - is the one who excels in her failings and supports her virtues.  The chances of that being the dog that she lives with is VERY remote! :(  So you see anyone buying a dog and bitch to mate together is doomed before they start!! 

Sometimes, when an experienced breeder has developed a bitch line, they want to use one of their own dogs to bring back into their line a couple of generations later.  But that tends to be a biggish kennel, because to keep entire dogs and bitches in season together in the confines of a 'normal' home is very stressful for all involved, as a search on this site will reveal.

I wonder what arrangements your friend has made to keeping the dog and bitch apart (and sane!) on the seasons when she isn't planning to produce a litter?

Missie, it's all very well the pedigrees being compatible (and not just a random outcross!). How do they know that the bitch will grow up to be strong where the dog is weak, etc? Having the right bloodlines isn't enough - you have to carefully study the individuals.

Missie, I did say the "majority" of matings between dogs living together. I am sure there are cases where appropriately matched dogs have been bought and a litter or two may ensue but it is a bit of a dead end street as offspring kept will probably be too close for most people to contemplate interbreeding with the parents and there can be little justification in producing a great deal of litters from the original two, if they did not produce worthwhile quality puppies for breeding on in the first two litters they never will.  I think you will agree though when it is a case of two dogs living together, non registered puppies and no health testing we are not really talking about a case of two dogs bought for a showing hobby and to take a small part in a larger breeding program.

Oh of course I agree that the OP should keep away, just wanted to know why it is a bad thing to have both parents :( But now I understand a bit more and can see what you are saying, thank you :)

Dee

It's the difference between breeders producing a litter to maintain/improve the Breed Standard and possibly keep one :) and people producing puppies to sell!!:(

I was shocked to read Echo's post about the cross-breeding every other season.    The poor bitches are the bred every season of their lives, either crossed or pure.   

I must be naive - didn't even occur to me that this is how the puppy farmers cash in all the way...

And the alternate litters can be KC reg.........

Dreadful

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Or of course they could be 'pedigree' and the good old Dog Lovers reg on the alternate season, they're not fussed how many litters the poor bitch has had.

Interesting in those cases that the breeder still does choose to use KC reg when it's available to them - I assume that as this costs more and there is a degree of 'policing', this must indicate that it is still more valued by puppy buyers or they wouldn't bother?

M.

My male that I've just used that lives with me wasn't and isn't cheap!!  But no I too would run away, I've worked hard for my breed and imported him in from another country as he has good breed lines, including the working side of the breed and his temperament is wonderful.  I too would be wary if someone had numerous breeds and both parents!

Jo, I had absolutely no idea of the amout of people breeding pet litters before I joined this board 5 years ago!!!!

Many years ago I knew of a man who bred basset hounds. He bred from every bitch at every season, but only alternate litters were registered - the others were sold unregistered.