Hi all

Sorry this post has such a strong heading but I am really furious. My girl had a litter of puppies 14 weeks ago. I had a phonecall from one of the new owners and she was really quite upset as her vet and veterinary nurse had advised her to cut her puppies food down by at least half as she was putting weight on too quickly. I wasn't too concerned as all the reports I had back were that the puppy was eating everything in sight and clearing her bowl at every feed. The puppy has been weighed every fortnight since she went home and the new owner has done everything by the book as the vet advised. I offered to come and have a look at the puppy and take one of mine for comparison. I fully expected to see fat podgy puppy when I arrived last night. I took my girl Ellie out of the car to be faced by the owner apologising and saying she was really sorry, when I went inside I could see why she was apologising, her puppy is skin and bones. I could count every rib and her pin bones were only covered by skin. To say I was upset is an understatement. I asked her to show me what the puppy was being fed and it's almost a 3rd less than my two are being fed. Apparently the vets' chart said that she was growing too quickly so they recommended her food be cut to stop her growing. I advised her to gradually increase the amount of food the puppy was given, change vets straight away and told her I'd phone them. I spoke to the vet nurse who has been weighing this puppy fortnightly and told her that as the puppies breeder I felt this puppy was too thin. She told me that her chart says the puppy should be such and such a weight a this age. I also told her that by restricting this puppies food in such a manner that she could be doing long term damage to the puppy, as any food she is getting is being used purely for her energy levels and there is no goodness at all going towards her bone growth, which is very important in a Gordon Setter. I was basically told that I didn't know anything about rearing healthy dogs. She also informed me that my vet was wrong because he didn't weigh my puppies and that there is no way you can't tell if a puppy is over or under weight by eye. Don't get me wrong I don't like my puppies to be like fat barrels but I do like them to have a covering over their ribs and pin bones. I just wondered what other people thought about this.

I would report them to the BVA!!!

I'd report them too. Since when did anything fit neatly into any 'chart'. At least they (your puppy owners) had the common sense to contact you.

Dapple

Do you think it would be worthwhile reporting them? If so how do I go about it? Sorry for being so thick but I've never had the need to report a vet before !

It's probably the RCVS that you want as that is their regulatory body.
If you want to get the best out of your encounter with them I would respectfully suggest an enquiring tone rather than an accusatory one at this stage ;)

I'm not even sure I'm going to contact them as yet Isabel as I will have to discuss it with the new owners. If I do I will be very careful on what I say and how I say it. I might just ask if there is any chance they can let me have a copy of the weight and measurement chart that vets use.

Well that would be a start but that would only provide you with the means to show whether they were adhering to the guidance of the charts what I think you really need to establish, for your own peace of mind, is whether a lighter model pup is at any disadvantage in development in which case you might ask them if they can reassure you over this. 

When I spoke to them earlier I asked if I could come in for a chat with my new owner and discuss things further and I was told that the there was no point as they weren't doing anything wrong. I did ask if she could say for certain that this puppy would grow to the expected height and weight range on the measly amount of food she was being given and she said that of course she would, but she would take a lot longer and be much healthier than the puppies I kept back. I tried to explain about bone growth in Gordons and was told that I was talking rubbish as all dogs are the same. There was no point getting into an argument with this girl as she had an answer for everything even if it was the wrong one.

I meant discuss whether a lean pup was at any disadvantage with the RCVS as they will be aware of all research and will hold the majority view of the profession rather than any wacky one your vet (or vet nurse :)) may hold.

Yes you7 want all the relevant info firts, and if it is incorrect or being appled incorrectly then this can be amended.  What people don't realise is that a puppy develops at a much faster rate than a human chikld so stuting growth can be more serious I would think.

Think the vet practise needs to be closed.  ALthough a puppy shouldn't be really fat, a fatter puppy is better then a skinny one.  What happend if that poor puppy became ill and didn't eat for 2 days, it would be starved, where as yours might just loose afew pounds!  I really feel sorry for the new puppy owners, we all think vets are great to follow as they have a degree in animal health. :(

Also how can you weigh a breed and put it to a chart?  Is every living thing born the same size, weight etc?  Imagin if every human baby was weight fortnightly and was given the amount of food to one figure....some would be fat. some would be skinny and a small minority would be correct!!!!

I think you do know about raisings puppies.  and someone who has never bred before I would think knows more then that nurse!

not forgetting setters need the weight for when they get to their leggy stage, they look better fatter then thinner when leggy IMO!

Just out of intrest was the weight sheet for "setter" IE Irish setter which would be fed alot less then a gordan setter of, as we all know, is the largest of the setters!

I'd love a copy of their chart.  I can't beleive that soemone has done a chart fo revgery breed they would eed to consult lots of breeders.

For starters I have two bitches 1 is icm smaller than ideal heigth and other is 2cm over.  The suggested weight for bitches in my breed accoring to the standard is 20kg.  My smaller bitch weighs 18.5kg when the correct weight and my well built champion bitch astonished me when I found that when just right she weighs in at 21.5kig.  Most of my other girls weigh in at 19.5kg and are just over the ideal height.

Now the smaller bitch would be gross at 20kg and the amazon would be too thin.

Puppies also vary quite a lot.  Those from big litters are often smaller than those from large but by maturity reach the same weight/height and build.

I am reminded of when I took my eldest boy when he was 6 months old to the vets because I thought he was too thin. He was weighed, the vet looked at a new chart hed had recently received and told me if he followed that I would have the RSPCA after me! Went on to say that the charts are all well and good for the average of each breed, but make no allowances for the dogs who are taller/shorter than average, or have more or less bone, or the age of a dog. He then went to great lengths to show how I should FEEL the dog to assess correct body fat and also said that preferably a puppy should have a "slightly thicker" covering of fat to allow for growth spurts and times they are off food (as they all are at some point) or illness.

My vet also looks and feels to check the condition of a puppy/dog. He is a slightly more set in his ways older vet, which I'm really glad about. I had my two in last week for their final injections and he told me how healthy they were looking.

Aren't babies weighed regularly by health visitors anymore and checked against centile charts? 
I think there has always been, and probably always will be differences of opinion about what "covering" is good for a puppy, certainly show people (including myself ;)) seem to tend to a better covering than working type homes do :) and probably vets ;).   I remember when I took my Cocker to obedience training classes, the trainer who I have know well for many years, never stopped telling me she was podgy, she looked fine to me I ignored her knowing it would come good, which it did, all hers are reared terribly lean to my eye but they come good too :)

Yes, they are...but it would be a rare case indeed a mother was told to cut down on feeding a baby at that early stage! The charts are more to measure that the baby is growing enough - not getting too fat

14 weeks would be very early stage for a human baby but puppies grow at a much faster rate.  I think a mother would be told if the health visitor thought her baby was putting on too much as there has been a lot of studies recently on the effects of very early obesity and later dietary preferences, consequent adult obesity. etc.

What really annoys me most about this vet practice is the fact that they admitted to the new owner when she phoned to register that they hadn't really had a great deal to do with Gordons, but that they were sure they could cope.

Isabel,

Babies are weighed every week at first then every fortnight, then once a month as they get older. They gave us a book, for all of his medical info, that has a graph in the back with an average weight to height ratio in it, each week the HV plots the height against the weight and this is measured against the average, my son was on the average mark for about 2 weeks then he was way above it! But obviously he wasn't overweight as it were, he is very tall (don't know where he get's it from, both me and OH are short) and this was part of the bigger picture as far as his weight was concerned :D

Where as my nephew who would eat anything in sight was quite tubby (even for a baby!) but as he has grown he has kind of stretched up and therefore lost his pot belly!

I don't know what the actual weight "should be" for any other breeds, but I wouldn't like to feel all of the ribs when stroking a puppy/dog, the vet should go back to uni I think!

Babies are done on BMI, dogs are done on breed to weight.

Now I'm educated! :D

I know they get weighed ;)), it was Rox who seemed to think it unlikely.  Thats the point of the centile chart, height or length is taken into account and the meeting of the two readings are the relevant one so of course a long baby will be "allowed" more weight.  Whatever chart the vet nurse is using I would expect it to be taking at least height into consideration and you would hope that the charts would also allow for "type" differences.  I must say it seems an awful lot of fuss for the surgery to go to but of course we were not there are the initial consultation and the puppy purchasers may have expressed a concern about weight gain in which case if monitoring was to be done I would expect it to be in line with the medical model of erring on the lean side.

Isabel

It would appear to be common practice to weigh every new puppy fortnightly as the owner has said everyone attending the puppy playgroup had to have their puppy weighed.  The puppy was taken to the vets the day after she was taken home and she was told then that the puppy was too fat, but she was worried I would be offended that the vet had said this so didn't tell me until I visited last night. I also spoke to a friend of mine who has had Irish Setters for years and he went there to have his puppy vaccinated a couple of years ago and they told him the same thing. He kindly informed the vet that he didn't know his backside from his elbow and registered his puppy else where.

Like you I like to see puppies well covered but if this is routine for them presumably they are able to monitor the puppies as they develop so I am sure they would be aware by now if their preference for a leaner pup was detrimental to their development.  If you are concerned though, why not speak to the BVA and perhaps they would have a look at the charts and data they are using and either reassure you or speak to the vet if they think they are taking leaness too far :)

I wouldn't have been upset if this puppy had even the leanest of coverings, but she is skin and bones there is no other way to describe her. Yes health visitors do weigh and measure children, I have had experience of both ends of the scale one above average on the centile chart and one slightly below average. The one that was above average wasn't fat she had a nice covering but she was just growing quicker and the one below wasn't skinny she looked perfectly healthy, but as they have grown up a bit it's obvious the one above average is going to be a couple of inces taller then the one below average. I'm so angry as if this puppy had been kept on such a restricted diet they could have caused some serious damage to her as she got older.

To be honest I don't know what chart she is looking at for weights, but it's certainly not working. Like I said before we kept two bitch puppies from the litter and one is smaller than the other so I dread to think what they would say about them. Would I have to starve the big one and overfedd the wee one? I explained about Setters and their growth spurt and said that I'd rather she was carrying a wee bit extra to allow for this. I was wrong about this too :(

That is really frightening to know there are vets out there like that.

Thats awful, Setters need all the weight they can get at that age to allow for growth - no wonder the poor little mite was eating everything in sight :(

I have had  a look at these charts as my vets tend to have them displayed in their waiting room. Amd I have NEVER seen any breed I am familiar with being represented correctly! I.e. for instance I'm sure it says that a Cavalier should weigh around 6 kilos -yes that is the MINIMUM amount of weight (breed standard) for a small bitch but in reality there are very VERY few that weigh that little, and if an average sized male dog was to weigh that little he'd be seirously underweight indeed...... I think it is Hill's that produce these charts (maybe I'm not allowed to mention names) -might be an idea to check it with them and have a word and explain what's happening.

Marianne

IMO you should never go by weight but the look and touch of the pup .

That doesn't sound like a puppy centile chart, Goldmali, that sounds more like an adult description chart.  The KC standards don't describe the weight of lots of individuals within a breed very typically either :)

<I.e. for instance I'm sure it says that a Cavalier should weigh around 6 kilos -yes that is the MINIMUM amount of weight (breed standard) for a small bitch but in reality there are very VERY few that weigh that little, and if an average sized male dog was to weigh that little he'd be seirously underweight indeed...... >

Actually the ideal weight for a cavalier should be between 11lbs & 18lbs & I have a dog who weighs in at 15 lbs 6.80kg) & in the ring he looks like a puppy ! so where anyone gets that cavaliers should be a minimum of 13 lbs ? the 11-18 is for both dog & bitches but I reckon most will weigh 25 lb +(11+ kg) as long as they are not fat the weigh limits are a guide only for the ideal dog, some shows(including Ch)have special under 18 lb classes & there are few entries

Just had our oldest boy for his heart check up & he is a very fit average size cavalier(well actually slightly smaller than average show dog)& he weighs 10.55 kg(23lb)my vet was very complimentary as to his muscle & body condition & always has a good feel before weighing the dog

The weigh of any dog depends on the frame & the amount of muscle surely & any reduction should be based on body fat not rate of growth

The bottom line is, babies and puppies need to thrive! It's common sense, isn't it but that commodity seems to be in short supply these days...:-(. I am now retired from health visiting but in my final year I saw 2 babies who, when I did my first visit at 11 days looked like those tragic pictures of the starving infants overseas. Both mums were first timers and hadn't realised - one baby had to be admitted to hospital and was in for some time, on a drip etc. I was beginning to have nightmares that we would end up with a baby dying of starvation in the UK in the 21st century.....sounds as though this over zealous vet nurse needs to forget the charts and use her eyes.

But that is only applicable to this case if you are saying the centile charts showed these babies to be in the right area of weight gain, otherwise its just a comment about lack of monitoring of first time mothers.

My sons length was over 90 centile, his head was 50 centile and his weight was 25 centile. He was skinny, but ate like a pig(still does) Still skinny Still tall, but there is certainly nothing wrong with him at all. What I am trying to say, if they went on average(50 is average centile) Then I would have had to try and stunt his growth feed him double but he was ok as his head size was fine :S :S :S :S :S
Transfer that to dogs :o :o :o
Ridiculous :( :( :(
I would report them as well. If someone had no one else to give them advice, what would happen to the poor pup :(
Lea :)

The latter is the case. My point was the patently obvious one that all babies and young animals need sufficient calories to enable them to survive and thrive.

I don't think that anyone would disagree with that, carene, overfeeding can be a problem too.  I'm sure as a health professional you appreciate resources such as centile charts to facilitate the monitoring of healthy growth.  They are a device, that is all, they should not prevent people using common sense to achieve the levels that the charts guide you to.

Hi,
have you got a digi. camera, take some photo's if you can.  Then I would
take a photo of my pup. Then God help them, I'd be on there case.
You can't let it lie. These people are hiding behind there charts.
"CRUELTY" Not all vets are good people, pet's can't talk.
Pity you can't NAME AND SHAME.
The puppy could do with being taken to your vets with your pup,
and asking his opinion, before telling him what has been happening.

Regards
Denese 

At least this surgery spoke to you, when I had a query re. a pup of mine with a vets and the owner OK'd it for me to speak to them they wouldn't!!

I am another person who likes pups to have a little bit of weight on them rather than be skin and bone as others have said if it was ill it would take more out of it than a pup who is a good weight.

WOW!!! I didn't realise until I read this thread just how lucky I am with my vet. The nurses are fantastic and spoil the animals like their own and the vets... well they are the same! They have charts in the waiting room and according to them both my adult dogs are under weight by 3 kilos and 6 kilos. HA HA HA Thankfully they assess their weight by the way they look, ie: how much condition that they have. They do comment though on the fact that they see so many fat dogs that one that is the normal weight appears skinny and it would be easy to suggest it was underweight. I think that this is shocking. You cannot use a chart to decide what weight a puppy should be at whatever age! Every dog is different and very few fit into the little box that these charts try and put them in. :-(

Hi Alli,

Just catching up with this thread and this vet sounds like he's clueless and it's lucky your new puppy owners alerted you to the situation  :(

All of the exam rooms in the small animal practice at the Glasgow Vet Hospital have a chart assessing canine physical condition marked from 1-5 (the newest one, I think) or 1-10 with the number (1) being emaciated up to (5) or (10) being obese.  The method of deciding whether the dog is under or over weight being by visual assessment coupled with thorough hands on examination - a far better guideline than weight and one that is easily interpreted by lay persons and so can be explained and understood more thoroughly if they have diet guidelines to follow.  Actual weight is only factored into it after is has been assessed whether the animal is under or over weight by the physical exam and determining what is muscle as opposed to fat and allowances made for juveniles to have slightly more of the latter.

It's a pity all ordinary GP vets don't use this chart and method of assessment instead of any made up by dog food manufacturers.  In my own breed if any of my dogs were to achieve the weight used as a guideline by a certain food company they would be seriously over weight and almost certainly suffer from quite a few health problems :rolleyes:

I hope your puppy people find a more sympathetic and enlightened vet and one that is happy to get as much feedback from breeders of individual breeds as possible.

Good luck, Teri :)

   

Teri, we don't know yet what charts the vet was using, it was Goldmali that mentioned food company charts. As you say if you use the quantities that the food manufacturers recommend you are more likely to end up with an overweight dog a bit of a contradiction in this case :)

Isabel, I know it was Marianne who referred to a food company chart ;)  

As well as Alli, who my reply was addressed to, some other posters may find it of interest that specialists who have been training the more recently qualified vets and who host seminars for others are using a method which - as has been suggested by several posters already - is far more reliable method of determining correct condition than weight alone :)

The chart mentioned by Goldmarli referred to adult dogs, are the ones you are referring to pertaining to puppy growth? 
We don't actually know what charts this vet was using at the moment.  Perhaps he was using ones like you describe but in their subjective judgement the puppy was not falling within the ideal band and has factoring in weight monitoring or maybe they have been overdoing it, until we hear more detail I don't really see how we can judge :)
I wonder if the vet school band of ideal weight for a healthy dog or pup, assessed by any method ;), exactly matches the ideal we would choose for our pups and bitches :) 

>until we hear more detail I don't really see how we can judge <

Speak for yourself Isabel - I'm quite happy to accept Alli's personal assessment of the condition of a puppy which she bred herself.  I'm sure her experience counts for more than mine, yours or the vet in question.   If you feel otherwise perhaps you should restrict your replies to Alli - but in view of their nature it would be more appropriate to do so by pm.

I am quite happy discussing it in an open forum, thank you :).  That way everyone can contribute if they wish. 
I have no doubt at all about Alli's assessment, I may very well have felt the same as her, but I think the vet is entitled to an opinion too and if their view that puppies should be at a lighter weight than Alli and I would have said, I would like to know more about it as I prefer to keep an open mind about these things and I don't believe we know enough about the guidances he was using yet to judge.

But thats what we are saying, Isabel, a dog or puppy should not be assessed by weight alone. The amount of fat is not the only thing being weighed - there is bone as well and one dog can weigh more than another but still be carrying the same amount of fat. I have two bitches: one is almost an inch taller than the other and weighs much less because she is finer boned. If my smaller bitch was reduced in weight to be equal, she would be dreadfully thin.

I do agree, although in a 14 week puppy height difference is obviously not going to contribute to the same degree of variation of the BMI as a fully grown adult there simply can't be as many inches difference :)  The only thing I would like to hear is whether the charts the vets has been using aims for a lean pup and the reasoning why or have they applied it wrongly.

Teri - I have the same opinion of food manufacturer's recommended intake.  It's way too high.  I feed Nature Diet and they recommended (over the phone and on the packet) that my two "medium" sized dogs have a whole packet each a day - that's 390g each - way way too much.  They actually get half that amount and are satisfied with that, plus the two treats a day they are allowed.  Lennon has put on 1 kilo since he's been with us (almost 12 weeks) which I don't think is unreasonable.  I'm even hopeful that Roxy may lose a bit, and she's a little porky :)

I cant believe what i have just read on this thread about that poor puppy and the vets omg.
I am almost a fraid to go to my vets.
I had my new puppy sunday and have to have his jabs ect soon.
They should be reported or investigated.

Just remember the vets area of expertise is unlikely to be puppy rearing and nutrition (a good breeder will be the expert here). 

They are generally good at what they are trained to do, diagnose and treat illness/Injury.

I have twice suggested a diagnosis for dogs I or friends have owned  which the Vet hadn't considered and have been found to be right, one person even got an appology when she insisted (at my urging) her dog be tested for underactive Thyroid which he insisted it couldn't be.

Many of us may have seen conditions in our dogs or freinds dogs, and also conditions that are more prevalent in certain breeds and an open minded vet would do well to listen.  Fortunately I know have such a vet.

I got sick of detailing signs and symptoms and timescales to a vet only for them to totally ignore me and start investigations for something easily ruled out if they had listened to my careful observations and knowledge of my own dogs and breed.