hi

my partner and i are considering breeding labradors. our main reasons are because when getting our pup, we found it hard finding a reputable breeder in our area. i read up a lot and wanted to make sure our pup would not have health problems later on in life. vets didn't know any breeders they could recommend, a lot of owners had bought theirs from a store in romford (a lot of pups became sick and the store was later investigated and im sure was prosecuted), and at the time i was not aware of breed clubs, as this was my first dog. due to our experiences, one thing we'd like to do is ensure anyone who wants a family pet lab (as we were) can get one from a home bred environment and not have to worry so much about health issues like OCD etc... (ie improve the breed). we are heading towards more of a 'country' lifestyle and would like more dogs (bitches - ive read its not good for more than 1 dog). we'd like to supply our future dogs from our own breeding (using studs obviously for genetic diversity), and continue doing this for many years if not decades. i have to be honest and admit id also like the experience. this wouldn't be for money, however i'd ideally like to break even or make only a slight loss so im paying for the privilege.

thats some of the reasons why. now to my current problem. millie is now 10 months old, she was eventually found through my partner's father (he lives in the north-east) through a friend of a friend of his. my partner decided on getting her (i couldn't get time off work to travel there), and we were not planning on breeding. millie is not KC registered. i do not know why this was the case, and i therefore do not know her pedigree, or previous health issues that may have run in the family. if i was to breed her, i'd need to be sure of improvement and therefore would do full health-checks etc. at 2yrs, with a view to breeding at 3.5 years age (approx 5th-6th season) then spayying. however how will the fact that she is not KC reg affect this? for example, if she has very good hips etc.., but no KC reg, is it worth not breeding from her?? i would want the pups to be KC reg. because if its not possible, i'd be getting her spayyed now, and getting a new bitch in 3-4 years time.

she is only a family pet (well trained and obedient albeit), although im toying with 'showing'. she (in my opinion) meets the kc breed standard as hosted on their website. my only initial concern was that she may be too small, however ive later found that she has the correct height and weight as the breed standard requests.

many thanks for your replies, i can submit links of her pictures if this helps...

The Labrador is the most overbred breed in this country.  There were something like 44,000 that were kenenl club registered and untold unregistered ones like your bitch or worse from puppy farms.

To be absolutely Frank unless you plan to get seriously involved with showing/working the breed then you should forget about breeding.

There are more than enough real breed enthusiasts to keep teh breed in good heatr, and sadly way to many that breed for profit or because they have a nice pet without taking any responsibility for the pups/dogs once sold.

Why not join the breed clubs and get involved.  Study the breed, take your time and get to knwo the typoe you admire, maybe get into working your bitch, and then when you have a good grounding and have mentors within the breed choose a breeder awaiting a carefully planned litter and get yourself a good bitch to found your won dynasty.

You will not be doing the breed any favours by breeding fro your current bitch, and she won't miss the expereince.

Few breeders find that their first dog is of suitable quality to be bred from especially when they were not that clued up when they got them.

Firstly you will not be able to show her in breed classes at any shows except Companion Dog shows as she is not KC registered & Companion Dog shows are really fun shows with judges who may not even own a dog let alone know the breed standard of any of the dogs entered

You would be able to compete at obedience, agility, flyball etc the activities if you registered her with the KC on the activities register(but this does not you can tell people her puppies are KC registered pedigree labradors only that they are labradors on the activities register of the KC(the wording the KC use is that activities registering of parents does not mean the puppies will be accepted)

If you breed from her even if she has had all the health tests done you could still be producing pupies with problems because you do not know any of her pedigree. As you don't know anything about her pedigree if you did breed from her you could be breeding her to a very close relative again not something I think you would want to do

There are over 44,000 registered labradors bred every year & probably as many that are not registered do you really want to add to these numbers

Is your girl so outstanding that she will improve the breed by being bred from ?

Sorry but IMHO you should not even be thinking about breeding from her ever & if you do want to be involved with breeding labradors then you should buy the best quality bitch you can from the best kennels that breed to the breed standard & that heaslth test all their dogs & get good results from the tests. You should then show/work your bitch with success & then & only then consider breeding from her wth the guidance of her breeder

To be honest, unless she is a spectacularly good specimen, as she's of the breed she is, there's very little point in breeding from her. There are about 45,000 labradors registered each year (by far and away more than any other breed) with probably an equal amount unregistered. The market simply isn't big enough to provide good homes for all these pups, and many hundreds end up in rescue each year.

As for showing her, if she isn't registered then that's out of the question, other than at Companion shows (which are the purely 'fun' shows where pedigree doesn't matter). However, if you train her to the gun and she turns out to be a good working gundog you might find gundog people would be interested in having pups from her - but she'd have had to prove herself in the field.

I'm sure your bitch is a truly lovely animal, but if she's not KC registered (which only her breeder can do), with her full genetic background known, then you'd be best off keeping her simply as a pet, and if you want to breed, get in a quality KC registered bitch with a health-tested background to found your line. If she's not KC registered, nor can any of her puppies ever be.

Sorry if it's not what you wanted to hear.

Snap JG & Barbara

Great minds, eh?! :D

Personally, I cannot find anything to add to the good advice that has already been given. You seem to have given a lot of thought into what breeding entails, and I am pleased that you have 'noticed' the many not so reputable breeders. But, if you did go ahead on the lines you are thinking, you would almost certainly end up in this category.

However, you have taken the tiniest first step towards keeping youself out of that category.  You have asked for advice, and if taken on board, then I commend you for that.

Of the 30 plus years I have owned Labradors, it took me 20 years to find my foundation bitch. it was only then, I started to breed.  I still use my two original breeders as my mentors, and continually need to research.

To get a good reputation for breeding take many years, to get a bad reputation it only takes one litter.

If this is something you really wish to do, you will need to put your heart and soul into it. It can also be financially cripling.

Be responsible.

"one thing we'd like to do is ensure anyone who wants a family pet lab (as we were) can get one from a home bred environment and not have to worry so much about health issues like OCD etc... "

If this is your main reason for wanting to breed, why not join the breed clubs and help as a puppy list co ordinator? that way you would be helping people like yourselves who are looking for a KC registered, tested pup from responsible breeders :)  You will also be in a better position to learn about the breed, learn about breeding and what it entails, learn to recognise a good Lab from a bad one and eventually find a superb bitch for breeding if you still want to - once you know what it entails and how heartbreaking it can be ;)

You might also wish to get involved in Breed rescue, they often need volunteers to foster dogs, vet homes, fundraise etc.

Just thought you'd like a few options which could lead to you fulfilling your goals ;)

Dill both brilliant suggestions. :-)

Welcome user56565

Sadly the Labrador breed is the most over bred breed there is.  As Brainless said 44000 registered and proabably half of that again unregistered. Yours sadly being one of them. 

I am not sure where you centralled your search for a puppy but they are endless amounts of well bred labradors around purely because show breeders cannot keep everything in a litter and they have a few pups.

I think wherever you searched it was sadly in the WRONG place. If you had contacted the breed club they could have gave you endless names of good breeders.

Labradors that are no KC registered you stuggle to sell them and a huge percentage ends up in rescue.

One of our members runs A lab rescue and she gets them in EVERYDAY. Some KC reg and some than will have originated from show homes also.

Now being honest and Frank unless you are prepared to buy in another dog show it well or work it then I personally would put the thought of breeding her to the back of your head.

Breeding a None KC registered Labrador is and would be a very unethicial thing to do to a bred that I think personally already in crisis.   

I can only say AMEN to everything that has been said. I really find it hard to believe that you could not have found a reputable breeder, so that you could have got a well bred puppy.  As you have no history on your bitches ancestory you could certainly not put your hand on your heart and say the puppies will not have any problems.  These problems sometime occur even when breeders have done their utmost to breed a sound animal.

i can only say take on board the advice already given.  This is quoted from one!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but IMHO you should not even be thinking about breeding from her ever & if you do want to be involved with breeding labradors then you should buy the best quality bitch you can from the best kennels that breed to the breed standard & that heaslth test all their dogs & get good results from the tests. You should then show/work your bitch with success & then & only then consider breeding from her wth the guidance of her breeder 

I would also like to add that there are too many Labs having to be Rescued.  Why not become a helper for one of the Rescue Chariities and you will see exactly what we mean. Regards Meg

user56565
The posts above say it all but I would just like to add 2 small points
1/ Although 'home bred' is nice it is not essential in purchasing healthy,happy well adjusted puppies.
2/ I know you say IYO your dog fits the breed standard unless you have years of experience of assessing dogs I'm afraid you are unlikely to be able to reliably judge this.It is not just a case of reading the standard and looking at you dog but of understanding the text.Do you understand about angles and bone structuer etc.I have been showing my breed now for 4 years and have been to many shows.I have tried to listen to peoples opinions and read judges critiques and asked countless questions yet STILL I am a mere novice and do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to state wether a dog is breeding material.
I would also like to say well done for your responsible attitude towards health tests etc and hope that you take on board the good advice given you by other members
Archer

hiya guys, and many thanks for your replies. i didnt expect to get so many replies so quickly. the first 3 were within minutes of each other!

back at the time when we were looking for a pup, as i said before i didnt know about the dog clubs. i was going to be a first time dog owner and knew i wasn't going to buy from a shop, or through a classified. ideally i wanted to buy through word of mouth, ie a recommendation, which is why i asked vets + owners. i suppose a first time owner who doesn't know about dog breed clubs or has any experience with breeders etc, is quite possibly going to find it difficult finding a pup, and maybe even perhaps buy unregistered through a classified. i suppose i should also add now that we both did go to rescue shelters (NCDL etc..) and put ourselves on their lists. there were many other breeds but no labs (esp puppies). (labs are one of the best breeds for first time owners, also a lot of the dogs requiring homing required 'an experienced dog owner'). this all lead me to believe that labs were hard to find, and in reasonably short supply.

one of my concerns of breeding from her has been discussed by 'archer' and 'jeangenie'. 'how can i be 100% sure that she is of breed standard?'. this was one of the reasons why i was thinking about the idea of showing. to me it would have been a fantastic way to learn more about the breed in person and assess her suitability. i have now learnt from you guys that showing can only be done by KC reg dogs, so there's no way millie's going! however the obedience trials etc seem interesting, and im going to investigate more on this (thanks moonmaiden)

i thought testing her would give a good indication as to whether she had good genes. i know its unlikely, but if she got example 0/0 hips, 0 elbow, clear eyes etc.., maybe she would improve the breed? from a wider perspective, maybe there are labradors out there, that have better genes but they're just not KC registered (because one of their ancestors wasn't etc..). wouldn't it be worth having them assessed to the breed standard, testing them in the field and then allowing them to be introduced to kc stock, to improve the breed? if kc registered labs are blighted by joint problems and other health issues, correct genes need to be either isolated by corrective breeding, or if this isn't possible, introduced either from new stock or by natural mutations. in my opinion, just because a dog isn't kc registered, i don't think it should be automatically banned from any breeding, but perhaps looked at case by case. i suppose that's how i looked at it. i do understand that a lot of the 'faulty' genes are recessive, and may skip a generation, and that family history is important in being able to detect this. and this is what has put me off breeding her most of all. even if she were perfect, her dad could have had heart problems, grand mother severe OCD, etc..  and that's the main benefit of kc registration - the family history is known.

i originally posted here to help me plan for the future - 3years ahead - to make a decision now. im taking the advice given to me and getting her spayyed, although i may have to wait a few months as the vet said she may be having a phantom pregnancy and i'll have to wait for that to get sorted out.

now in the long term im still considering whether to breed or not. i hope to add another member to the family in about 5years time, and will use the time until then to learn more about the 'official' breed, and to decide whether it really is worth me 'joining in' or 'staying out'. it has been suggested that i join a breed club. i have looked at their membership forms and have noticed that they ask for a KC affix, and 2 proposers. how will i be able to join a club and take part in events and learn, if millie can't come with me and if i need to be proposed. any ideas on this?? many thanks for your responses.....

Because the background of your bitch is unknown even if all the tests showed she had perfect hips elbows etc if you bred her you could still be breeding her to a close relative or a dog who pedigree contained genetic faults that your bitches does & until the puppies displayed them you would never know

Did you know that labradors can also have syringohydromyelia ? which can only be diagnosed by MRI scan if it is asymptomatic & MRI scans cost around £600+  (as your dog is not a cavalier) add this to at least £150 for hips & elbows & your eyesight test makes it a very expensive pet litter before you even mate your bitch

Vets are not the best when finding out about breeders.  Many people who have health tests etc. go to specialised vets and not just the nearest and that's why your local vets didn't know anyone.

Well done, for taking on board all that you've been told.    I think that you are now going about things in the correct manner - I would contact the breed society, by phone or letter, explain to them exactly what you've told us, and the conclusions that you have arrived at, and I'm sure that they will be able to propose/second you - and there is absolutely no point in you having an affix until you are ready to breed!

Read up as much about labs as you can - go to as many shows and field trials as you can - just as an observer - look at the differing types of lab, decide which is your ideal, talk to breeders - you'll eventually find one that you feel you are in tune with - and allow that person to mentor you - you are talking on a long-term basis now - and good luck with all your endeavours!

Margot

And...this does not include any cost for the mating when you do FINALLY get the best bitch possible for breeding.  My next mating is a 10 hour round trip, the one after that is 8.5 hour round trip, A pup I have, the bitch travelled to Sweden to be mated.

You say that you want to start breeding because you could not find a pup locally, this is because if you want the best you may have to travel.  I have bought three pups in the last 2 years, none of them were within 400 miles of each other.  There are many good, reputable and responsible breeders, why do you really want to breed? If not to add to the many thousand of unwanted Labradors that end up in rescue every year.

I have 8 Labradors, apart from the 2 rescues, Which have excellent pedigrees I may add,  are excellent, true to breed standard with amazing pedigrees, each have min 25 Ch & SH CH in 5 line ped. but only 3 are of the exceptional quality from which I would wish to breed from.  there is no good reason to breed from the others. Just having a good pedigree is not a good enough reason to breed, Simply being of excellent standard and clear health test are not good enough reasons to breed.

Pedigree is also no guarantee that a pup will be of breeding quality in the future.  I have a dog who's parents are Int/Fr/Nor/Belg. Champion,  He was 7 months old when I realised that his quality for breeding puposes were lacking.  Yet to a layperson he is perfect.  He has 2 very minor faults which go un-noticed, but I know they are there, and they may show up in some offspring.  Therefore he will never be used at stud.  You could be looking at 10/12 years before you find a lab which will be considered good enough to breed from.  Anything less than exceptional is just not good enough.

MRI Scan   £750/800
Hips/elbow score   £150
Eye test (Annual)  £35
Stud fee   £350/600
possible c/section £600/700
Worst case scenario pups and bitch do not survive. (not uncommon )

None of these costs are covered by insurance!!!!

Do you still want to breed???

Hi user56565
Believe me there are plenty of non-kc registered labs with HD, it is not a problem in kc registered dogs only. 

The most likely reason that you were unable to find labs in rescue shelters is, because there are so many labs that need rehoming, there are a lot of breed specific rescues up and down the country that rehome them.

There are plenty of well bred healthy kc registered labs, and you cannot simply add a non kc registered dog back into the kc gene pool.

One thing I do think is a serious problem amongst many who are looking to breed is that they lack a general knowledge of their breed and dogs in general.  An important aspect of being a breeder is the backup given to owners throughout the dogs life.  While I would not expect a breeder to be an obedience trainer ;), I would want them to have a good knowledge of dog ownership in general and their breed in particular, behavioural characteristics and common problems encountered (and their solutions).  So many times on this and other forums I read of people wanting to breed from their first dog - having only been a dog owner for perhaps 18 months to 3 years, how can they possibly have the knowledge to be able to support their puppy buyers when problems arise?

Many breed clubs do require 2 proposers.  I would suggest asking to go to some of the events as a visitor, perhaps even offer to help.  You will get to know people that way.  I have found that people are only too willing to help if you have a genuine interest and desire to learn.

Hi user56565

I agree with what everyone has said to you here. 

"i know its unlikely, but if she got example 0/0 hips, 0 elbow, clear eyes etc.., maybe she would improve the breed? "

Labs aren't my breed and I don't know what their average scores are, but it's unlikely she will get perfect scores.  It is expensive to get hips scored, costing about £150 or so - I don't know what it costs for the other tests.  Also, there are plenty of labs with excellent hip scores which ARE KC registered, so even if she got good scores there would still be no point or need to breed from her because she's not KC registered. 

'if kc registered labs are blighted by joint problems and other health issues, correct genes need to be either isolated by corrective breeding, or if this isn't possible, introduced either from new stock or by natural mutations. '

No, you misunderstand the situation.  Not all KC stock is 'blighted by joint problems'.  There is an average or acceptable score for the hips of each breed and of the stock which is KC registered, some will be below average and some above average.  Breeders should not breed from stock with an unacceptable hip score.  So they are already breeding to better hips from within KC stock - but this can't be achieved overnight, it takes time and decades of responsible breeding.

'in my opinion, just because a dog isn't kc registered, i don't think it should be automatically banned from any breeding'

It is not banned from being bred, if you mean illegal.  Theoretically, you could still breed from your lab - BUT this would be irresponsible for the good of the breed and also you would not be able to register any of the pups with the KC.  Which in turn would mean that the pups could not be sold for as much money as KC registered pups, could not be shown and could not enter gundog working tests or field trials. 

I'm glad you've decided to spay her.  If you still want to breed in the future, I agree with what others here have said - first decide if you want to breed working labs or show labs.  There is a big difference between them physically and if you took a working lab to a show you would be laughed out of the ring.  Then find a kennel which is at the top of the area you want to specialise in - so, choose a top show kennel with lots of Sh Chs if you want to show, or a top working kennel with Ft Chs in the pedigrees if you want to work.  Then buy a bitch which is KC registered.  Then try to achieve something with her in terms of titles - try to make her up to Sh Ch or Ft Ch, or at least aim for that as far as you can.  This should keep you busy till she's 3 yrs or something - by which time, if you've achieved something with her, then maybe you would consider breeding from her, with the help of the breeder you bought her from.  If you haven't achieved anything, you probably should spay her.  It's a long term plan, not something you should rush into.

As for the affix and proposers - perhaps, if you posted a message on the notice board and ask for 2 proposers, another member of the breed society will propose you?  If it works like our breed soc does, you just find another member and ask them to propose you, and people are usually very happy to propose others.  If I were you, why don't you call up and say you have an unregistered lab and would like to join, but don't know anyone - see what the secretary says.

@moonmaiden
"Because the background..." i understand this hence my decision to spay.
"Did you know ..."  i also know that breeding correctly can be very expensive and costly. my first post indicated money was not so much of an issue to me.

@spanishwaterdog
i myself now know about breed clubs. however first time buyers may not be, and may still consult their local vet.

@lokis mum
thanks for your comments. i will be doing exactly as you have said.

@kayc
i think you may have misunderstood my last post. i never said i was going to breed. since owning millie, ive gained a fascination with the breed and would like to learn more, and decide if its something i really should be getting involved with at some point in my life. your post could be interpreted as being scaremongering. yes breeding has risks, not just financial, but people are willing to take the risks for a passion. just like someone may spend a lot of money on a hobby, i don't think breeding is necessarily something that has to make money if you really enjoy it. see my first post "this wouldn't be for money, however i'd ideally like to break even or make only a slight loss so im paying for the privilege". my last post enquired as to how i could get more involved and learn more about the breed, whats wrong with this?? your reply seems as if you want to keep me from learning/breeding at all costs. please correct me if ive misread your post.

@jenp
i agree, id probably think hd was more severe in non reg dogs than reg. however my thinking was maybe there is something in the non kc gene pool that could contribute - im not saying i would do this. about the events, do i have to join a club first to be a visitor?? or can i find out about the events and turn up on the day? (obviously ive had no experience)

@onetwothree
i understand basic hip scoring and now that amongst other things, low hip scores seem to be required from the breeding community. initially (before my first post here), i wondered if millie got below average (i think i read this as being 10) whether this would help. however ive learnt since posting that there's no point. "Also, there are plenty of labs with excellent hip scores which ARE KC registered, so even if she got good scores there would still be no point or need to breed from her because she's not KC registered." ps i didn't mean illegally banned, just ethically banned if you know what i mean!

i'll be following 'lokis mum', 'jenp', and '123' advice about contacting the clubs directly, and going from there. many thanks to all of you who helped and advised me, i know im making the right decisions now!

User56565
you are a breath of fresh air!...some one who takes on board advise and and is obviously keen to do things the 'right' way.The dog world needs more people like you.
Hope you stick around Champdogs....true dog lovers are always an asset
Archer

If you want to do something with your current dog it might be worth getting involved on the working side. There are plenty of gundog training classes around the country and you needn't have a KC reg dog to be able to train. (There is a very competent non-registered lab in the class I run, that will make his owner a lovely working companion.) If you have the inclination you could get then some work for the dog on a local shoot. Even if your long term ambition is to have show labradors, having some knowledge of the working side will give you a greater appreciation of the function that the breed was designed for (which seems to be lacking in many show breeders) You can attend classes even if you dont want to actually take your dog on a shoot.

Field trials and most working tests are limited to KC reg dogs, but there are a few competitions (such as those run by BASC) that will allow non-registered dogs to enter as well as the various scurries held at game fairs.

From the dogs that I have come across, non-registered dogs do not really represent a potential addition to the gene-pool. Most that I have come across are only one or two generations away from KC reg stock and thus dont really have any bloodlines that are not available in the registered lines.

Hi User56565.  I think yes maybe you have misunderstood me.  In my 1st reply to you original post, I actually commended you for taking the 1st step. You are asking questions and doing your research.  Many 'lab breeders' never think to consider all evenutualities.  And no, not scaremongering, only pointing out the pitfalls. If you are possibly thinking, at some point in the future, this is all part of your research and knowledge. 

In all honesty, when I see another thread entitled 'should/could I breed my Lab' I tend to shake my head in despair.  However, I cannot say that in this case.  I am more than happy to help/mentor, anyone who wishes to breed responsibly.

I am delighted to notice that you have taken on board all that has been said, and for once, I have to say, you really are a breath of fresh air.

I have not posted about joining breed clubs etc, as that would simply be repeating what has already been said, and felt no need for duplication.

Ask all you wish, I for one will be more than happy to help, but may just sometimes you will not appreciate my answers ;)

@kayc
there are a lot of people who want to breed but aren't quite ready for it yet. i think its essential that they are encouraged to learn more, and think fully about it, and be discouraged from irresponsible breeding. when first posting here i was finding out whether i could learn enough in 3years and was also finding out whether millie could ever be a good specimen. i have learnt enough from all of you that i'd most likely need many more years and there's no point with millie.

when reading other forums etc.. i have found some responses to breeding questions to be unneccessarily harsh and dismissive, and usually not very informative. i posted only in this forum as most posters here seem very helpful, but suppose im still quite wary of receiving such a response from someone.

i thank you for your comments and would like to assure you that i asked for your help, and therefore will appreciate the helpful comments you make.

@archer
thank you, i should be hovering around...

@havoc
thanks for the information you have given me. id probably be more keen on working but, the only thing with that is im not too keen on hunting/shooting, and don't know how i would be able to work a lab and get around my feelings on that issue. ive read somewhere they sometimes use clay pigeons etc, but ive only started reading up on this and im sure there's a solution that could benefit me. there was a website i read 2 months ago about '2 different types of labs', first type was similar to uk show dogs (more stocky), and the other more similar to the original field dog. (i believe millie is closer to the latter from what i read anyway). anyhow it seems i will be getting her into classes of some kind and see how that goes (ps where is the one you run?). many thanks for the references you've given me...

Training classes are usually conducted with dummies (canvas filled with sawdust with a toggle for easy throwing). Occasionally cold game (previously shot some time before, often frozen and then defrosted for longevity) could be used, but you wouldnt need to get involved in the shooting side if you didnt want to. However, to successfully breed working dogs you need to be fully testing the prospective breeding stock in the shooting field and possibly field trials. A number of 'antis' and 'undecideds' have ended up involved in shooting / gundog work after starting in gundog classes, but its not necessary. (Field trials are held on a shoot day though)

Clay pigeons are very occasionally used as a distraction when training or working tests but not as a retrieve (there wouldnt be anything left to retrieve if it had been hit :-D)

Working type labradors are usually more lightly built than the show ones. Pictures of the early show labs show dogs that are similar in type to many modern working ones. Generally, those competing at the top level of gundogs have the least interest in the appeareance of the dogs, but to breed nice looking, easily trained working dogs is a worthwhile objective.

My class is in the Northants/Cambs border. Its oversubscribed at the moment, but if you're in my area I can give you a nudge in the right direction if your stuck for somewhere to take her.

Another working alternative with your lab are working trials. These are nothing to do with shooting, more like the kind of training a police dog would get (not necessarily man-work though!!). You can compete in these by registering your dog on the kennel club activities register. Labradors can do quite well in this discipline. Few (if any?) are purpose bred for working trials, I'd imagine the most WT labs come from gundog breeding. There are others on here that can point you in the right direction if that takes your fancy.

i suppose i can always attend the gundog classes and decide from my experience there whether i still don't want to shoot.

"Clay pigeons ...but not as a retrieve.." - obviously, excuse my stupidity!

"have the least interest in the appeareance of the dogs, but to breed nice looking...". isn't this contradictory?? just being cheeky! does the breed standard and description apply then only to show dogs as opposed to working?? i assume if there is a marked difference between the two types, then one type couldn't possibly fit into the breed standard as it would be 'disqualified' as such.

i mentioned millie's appearance because if she does fit the working dog profile more closely, she may have the potential to do reasonably at the classes.

would a dog that does very well at working trials, then be considered for breeding from those in the gundog field?? if similar qualities are req'd in both fields, i assume this may cause some interest. i've seen programmes such as 'cell dogs' and (can't remember the others), where they train dogs for work with police, and many of them are labs.

Yes, it is contradictory. The point I was making was that it is a worthwhile endevour to try and breed dogs that mix good working ability and looks even if by doing so you dont reach the 'top' field trial standard (or show).

Most people that I know that work labradors (& springers and cockers) have never read and have no interest in the breed standard. What they are looking for is a dog that does the required job to the standard that they are looking for. Most working gundog people, would on balance, prefer a good looking dog over an ugly one. However, a working enthusiasts definition of a good looking dog is not often the same as a show enthusiast. This is even more marked within springers and cockers than it is within retrievers.

It is relatively straightforward to get hold of a very well bred working puppy from KC reg, health checked field trial lines, so I wouldnt necessarily be that swayed by working trial success when choosing a puppy. However, it would attract me more than a show only or pet bred puppy for gundog purposes.

The main 'problem' with dogs that are trained for police type activities (from a working gundog point of view) is that hard mouth and whining & barking are not a problem for police type work. In fact they are often an asset. Most often it is dogs that have failed to make the grade as gundogs or working bred pets in unsuitable homes that get taken on by the police.

User 56565, I will be more than happy to help. As you may possibly tell from my answers to some other posts (not yours) I will speak my mind and occassionaly hit below the belt.  I am passionate about my chosen breed (Labs) :D and only have the breeds best interest at heart.

Please, keep the questions coming. I think I speak for all of us on CD, we are only too happy to help if we can :)

thanks for all the advice havoc. will let you know how things go....

One last note!
             I HIGHLY recommend you buy the book "Reaching for the Stars" (formerly titled 'Advance Labrador Breeding') by Mary Roslin Williams. She is one who chose the difficult path of breeding working SHOW Labs. This is one of my all time favorite "dog breeding" books and I have read it through several times, even though I do NOT have Labradors. I recommend it to ALL breeders!
            There are also many books on the Labrador-perhaps our resident breeder can recommend the best?
            Books. The oft forgotten educational tool! A pile of books can keep you enthused for a long time!
                                                                                                                TiaLee