For the first time in years I bought a free-ads paper and this morning I've been browsing.  I came across the Livestock & Poultry section which covered four pages.  It made very depressing reading.

First of all, having bred a litter myself, I can't understand why any reputable breeder would use this method of finding reputable homes for their pups so I can only assume that the majority of adverts are for pups that could really go to any home that is able to hand over the often astronomic amount of cash asked for.  I can't quite get to grips with the vast extent of the 'problem' that we are faced with to bring dog breeding up to a reputable standard and reduce the huge number of dogs that end up in rescue.  I thought I was quite informed, having subscribed to this forum for quite some time now but I admit that I have been in blissful ignorance of the size of the problem.

If I eliminated every advert for:
      each 'crossbreed' Bulldog x staff, gsd x gsp, etc;
      collies (ranging in cost from £30 - £250
      labradors
      dogs over 6 months old
      Jack Russell Terriers
      Dog Lover Registered instead of KC

there would be very few adverts left.  Why isn't each dog who is sold for a 'genuine reason' returned to the breeder?  My guess would be that they didn't come from a reputable breeder in the first place as anyone would want their pups back at the first hiccup, surely?

This paper only covers an area in the South West, but must be replicated hundreds of times over across the UK and of course, further afield.  What can we do to make people realise that a) breeding dogs takes more thought than an advert in the free-ad paper when they get to 6 weeks (or younger!) b) that buying a dog via this method can't be beneficial.  I am pretty sure the same concerns would apply to all the reptiles, kittens and small fluffy things that were also advertised.

I feel depressed.

I saw an advert a while ago in a free ads section for - Jackapoos. I own toy poodles and I think what this person has done is awful, I feel for the poor pups although I can't even begin to imagine what they look like. I hope to god this was an accident and a not deliberate attemp to create a new breed of designer dogs.

I think where you saw the advert says it all.

How sad.

I have used the freeads, exchange and Mart and local newspaper to advertise my last litter as there was a glut of puppies and short of keeping the lot myself I didnt have any option.  I also had the wrong colour and sex which was a nightmare! I actually sold 3 of my puppies from a litter 3 years ago and they have got excelllent homes.  I also advertised with the breed club and the kennel club.  This litter and my one last summer I had sold the whole lot by 3 weeks.  I also bought my first dalmatian from the yellow freeads 6 years ago and her dad is the CC record holder for the breed and she has excellent breeding.  The breeder was a member of the British Dalmatian Club but just couldnt sell them at that time.

As regards older dogs being returned to their breeders a lot of people dont go down this route as they want their money back and a lot of breeders wont do this with a full grown dog.  Also some people do genuinely have to sell the dogs due to marriage or work changing problems and perhaps want to check out the new owners.

You made a point I was going to - sometimes people don't want to give their dog back to the breeder, either because they are embarrassed at having to return the dog, or more likely because they want to return the dog and want some money back on it.  This happened with a bitch I bred.  I would have been only too happy to have her back and rehome her for them at my own expense (and in fact had arranged to do so at one point), but they wanted money for her, and that I refused to do.  I have not heard from them in several years despite attempts to contact them, so I guess they found someone to sell her to.  Possibly through the freeads, who can say?  I shall never stop wondering about her.

It is depressing reading isn't it. But not everyone, and I'm talking the majority of the population, know how to go about getting a dog 'the proper way' :(  When I was growing up most families got their puppy from a litter 'down the road' others from the local papers etc. Only since I joined CD have I realised and been educated on what goes on and I had never heard of the term 'puppy farmers' or 'backyard breeders' before. I know we had a pedigree irish setter, on breeding terms, when I was at home, as a young girl,  but our other dog, Sam, was a collie cross from some neighbour who was with us until he was 14yrs old. I had my first irish setter from a lady who lived next door to the place I worked, she worked all day and the dog never stopped barking when he wasn't escaping from the garden so I took him off her, kindly of course :) and my next two, Missie who's still with me, came from rescue centres. It was only when I met my friend Helen with the leonbergers that I realised how important it was to make sure you knew where your dog came from, and researching for reputable breeders, that I had my first pedigree dog with papers :) and also my second :) I also bore my family and friends or whoever I know who is thinking of buying a dog/puppy to research the breed or try the rescue centres, thereby avoiding the adverts like these in the papers! Hopefully one day someone will do something and puppy farmers etc will be a thing of the past :(
I really don't know what we can do to highlight the plight of these poor puppies who are bred, probably for demand. And if I want another leo in the distant future, my puppy is slowly putting me off puppies :D , I think I will go to a rescue and re-home.
OOps sorry to go on :P

Dee

I forgot to mention the number of adverts that can provide you with a selection of dogs they seem to have!

I know that this is idealistic but if every unwanted dog had to go back to it's breeder then we might start to give more thought to breeding.

I would really question whether you should be breeding at all if you have to pass on dogs this way.  This isn't a personal attack on anyone, just a big question in my mind.  If you need to home dogs in this way, surely you've got too many?  Why have a litter if you don't have homes waiting?  And if you end up with more dogs than homes, then you haven't got enough homes to warrant having a litter?  I am not directing this at anyone in particular but these are the sorts of issues that this subject has raised for me today.

All my owners sign a agreement to give my dogs back to me but by law they dont have to. This subject has been discussed many times on this forum.

Secondly I had twenty people waiting for black bitches.  I had one so therefore I did have homes waiting but unfortunately I had liver dogs.  What would you suggest culling the ones which are not wanted rather than advertising them in the freeads? And I would say again if the dogs I have sold via freeads are still in very good homes what is wrong with selling them this way?  I have only ever had one puppy returned to me (out of 6 litters) by someone who had the little guy one week then decided he was going to be send overseas and asked me what to do with him.  I gave his money back and re homed him. He came via the breed club.

As someone said this is the way a lot of people buy their dogs perfectly responsible normal people who buy in the traditional way of buying a dog!

Sorry but personally I would never touch ANY free ads paper for advertising anything living for sale. There are so many far better ways to advertise puppies for sale, and in the process reaching people that more than likely are more sensible prospective buyers that have thought through the purchase a bit more. Ie. you can put the litter on the breed clubs's puppy lists, advertise in Our Dogs and Dog World, Dogs Today, Your Dog, Dog Training Weekly etc etc. Even an ad in the vet's waiting room has to be better.

Marianne

Assuming that your critism was directed at me Goldmali you will see I did advertise with 4 breed clubs!  I also advertised on a number of websites including my own but if the enquires arent coming then I advetise.  What the hell does it matter where you advertise as long as you get good buyers.  If you get results your way good for you but I sell my puppies the way they sell and get GOOD buyers.  So why is it wrong?????  I have advertised in the dog press and got NIL response.  In fact two years ago when I advertised my litter once I had so many enquires because people couldnt find any for sale.

Just for the record I am not a puppy farmer either or a BYB although my dogs and puppies dont live or breed in kennels.  They have excellent pedigrees and breeding and 5 out of my last litter of 9 have gone to show homes!

I'll tell you why -there are people using those papers to CON people. It happened to me! They buy up pups, tell you a good sounding story (VERY convincing), then a week later the puppy is sold on for a profit to somebody else. It happens again and again.....I have been in touch with several people it's happened to. I think it DOES matter where you advertise as you attract different kinds of people. For instance I discovered many years ago that if I advertise in my local paper (I think my town must have a larger than average proportion of idiots!!), I get the wrong kind of person replying, if I advertise in a pet magazine or similar, I get a much better type of person. Saves a lot of hassle and removes part of the risk in selling to somebody essentially unknown.

I also find PetPlan's puppy and kitten lists can gain a lot of enquiries.  I honestly don't think I would WANT to sell any animal to somebody who had not taken the effort to find out where to find responsible breeders....... I don't mean this as criticism, I mean it as a WARNING -please beware. I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through what I did. :(

Marianne

Goldmali

So I con people just because I sell in the freeads?  You cant blame all breeders just because you got conned.  Everywhere advises you to see the mother you cant blame other people for the fact you havent followed guidelines.  You can get conned buying a car so what are you suggesting ban car advertising. 

Off course you get nutters but then you get nutters from breed clubs and the numerous other sources of advertising.  Personally speaking I am after the best buyers for my dogs and if I get them there then so be it.

As I have already said if you find dog papers work for you good on you but for me they dont.  At the end of the day all my puppies end up with good caring families whether I get them from breedclubs, champdogs or freeads.

You missed my point COMPLETELY. I was warning you that YOU could be conned. I was trying to do you a favour!

Marianne

I wouldn't touch these papers either Goldmali, for the sake of my blood pressure;) because a friend who does use them tells me that most enquiries start with "You've got a puppy would want to get rid of?" or "Everyone else's pups are too much.  How much is yours?" or "What's the cheapest I can take it off your hands?".

But I will say that the average family, who buys a new addition to their family every 15 or so years, knows nothing about Breed Clubs, Dog Papers or that the Kennel Club can help to find a puppy.:(  I have many lovely families in the grooming parlour, who think that the way to find a puppy is through these yellow papers or the Exchange & Mart.  Unfortunately most of these lovely families now own poorly bred, sickly, bad tempered puppies, because advertisers 'tend' to be people producing from pet dogs for the pet market, and have no waiting list - or in the case of my friend, is in a hurry to get rid of her last few pups.  On the one occassion where I found myself in that position, and had one puppy needing a home when the market was flooded, I preferred to be patient and wait for the right family (only took another 2 weeks:)) than to subject myself to those sort of conversations.

Hi jackyjat

I also bought the free ads for the south-west a while ago and I must say that I was stunned too. Although, most of the time, people who breed these "free-ad pups" are usually from accidnet matings so they end being interested in the money more than the puppies. Hurtful to see this sort of thing going on.

K

I agree it is depressing. However unless free ads are banned from advertising then they will always be there, add to that you always find somebody who wants "something different" it is not going to stop either!

I wonder what would happen if it was made law that all dogs pedigree or otherwise had to be returned to the breeder if they were no longer wanted by the owners if that would cut back on the irresponsible breeders. It might give some irresponsible breeders a headache!

I know how you feel jackyjat & unfortunately we also have a professional breeder of mastiff and other molosser type crosses here in the southwest, who actually runs a busines baed on these crosses & you often see his ads i th sw free ad papers. :(

im not sure if this works right across the country here but all the free-ads papers where i live actually charge £37 per month to advertise any live animal in their papers ..
I honestly think that as long as you are responsible and vet each prospective owner of your puppies extensivley then it shouldnt really matter where you advertise your puppies should it ? .. i have never used the papers myself to sell puppies although i did buy my eldest rottweiler from one back when i knew nothing about how to go about buying a dog from a respectable breeder as it happened i was very lucky and my girl came from a very respectable breeder and is the daughter of 2 champion showdogs with over 30 champions in her 5 gen pedigree :D so it just goes to show that not everyone advertising in papers are puppy farmers or byb .... its just a pity there are still so many of them about :(:(  my newest girl was rescued from a puppy farmer .. she is 4 in sept and has been bred from since she was 9 months old :( now she has been spayed and is living the life of luxury :)

Exactly my point Cazzie1978 :)

Perhaps the answer is to only allow breed clubs and the Kennel Club to advertise in these papers, as both breed clubs and the Kennel Club would be able to offer advice to puppy buyers? I know some breed clubs have advertised in the free ad papers and Exchange & Mart around here.

Another thing about free ads, I know through experience  when people want to get rid of a dog Pedigree or not tend not to want to wait many use this free ad option and will in fact give the dog to the first caller with no thought for the dog.
It is a well known fact that Puppy farmers trawl these papers and obtain pedigree dogs with papers some turning up with family in tow to prove dog is going to good home only to find its been a lie and the dog ends up in puppy farm.
I admit to running  in Loot a "good homes always wanted for unwanted labradors"and We can help you if you have a dog for homing, We can put you in touch with any breed rescue" in a vain hope that people would contact us or at least obtain free advice.
I am sorry to say I soon gave up as it was the tip of an iceberg.
I think they should make a charge for advertising animals .

I think they should charge also Mattie ..

It is very rare you will find a decent breeder in these papers or the sites they also run. I have yet to see one that in my opinion I would call reputable. If you look at the website ones you can generally see their other ads and there is usually a few other breeds also . " please give this wonderful show quality puppy a home"  ... cough cough..I don't think so.

Even as someone relatively new to my breed I have never had to advertise. ( not that I have had many to sell) but I believe if you do everything properly, use excellent stock then there are people for your puppies.  The breed club would also support you and hopefully the stud dog owner.   

I personally would rather hang on to them a bit longer. 

My very first litter was the only one I had a boy at 8 weeks and that was because I decided at the last min the would be purchaser was not the one for my puppy he had been booked from 4 weeks though.  I changed my mind at the last min through gutt instinct and stuck to it. I remember putting him on my champdog page but not sooner did I put it up I had a call from someone that came through the breed club.  I probably wouldn't have even bothered but I was going to a wedding in Canada in a weeks time. 

Just a little note - my very first Kerry Blue Terrier was bought at 4 months old, (1984 I think)  from an advert in the local paper.   She cost me £50.   She had been a small pup, so they kept her on longer (past the 'cute' stage) .    Her breeding was impeccable.   She went on to win Best of Breeds, won her class at Crufts three times, and bred three Champions.   She and her pups won obedience and agility as well!

She was dearly loved, and of super temperament - never had an arguement with any other dog.

I don't know what made me buy her - maybe I shouldn't have, I don't know,  but she contributed a lot to the breed.

She died from a tragic accident aged 12 1/2.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Jo that is great :-) , I know someone who did a similar thing. Bought a pup from a paper ( it was the dog paper though) and it was his one and only champion :-))

As a whole though as I have said before it is a rare occurance.

Hey listen if I thought these papers and websites etc governed the people who advertise on them then I say good on them but for now they don't. Any Tom, Dick or harry can sell and say what they like. Sadly.

So i am not a reputable breeder is that what you are saying Blue?  The fact I am a member of FOUR breed clubs who have very strict codes of conduct doesnt count for anything?

thomas the spot I don't need to reply really because if you go read my post again you will see I didn't say that you or anyone wasn't a reputable breeder. I do wished sometimes people would read things before jumping down peoples throats.  :-D

Seeing as you have mentioned my name in your post , I will reiterate that I said " rarely" I stand by that.

Are you try to tell me that loads of reputable breeders are listed in these papers?  I bet the percentage is very very very low.

Yes there is the odd one from someone stuck with a puppy but that is few and far between.

As a buying tool it is the last place you would send someone surely you would agree even if you have used them to sell puppies yourself.

Well said Blue. :-)

I don't think for a moment that every dog listed in a free ad is either poorly bred, unwanted or a poor specimen of its breed. JoFlatcoat's tale makes that clear, and that is brilliant. It's just not an ideal way to sell or buy a dog and the overall standard of those dogs isn't good.

i agree not all breeders who advertise in the free ads are bad breeders, sometimes things dont work out and they have the wrong sex puppies compared to whos on there waiting lists and sometimes an unexpectedly large litter can happen as well, if it wasnt for the free ads I wouldnt have my bulldog bitch Bexley :-) I dont think any media is all bad or all good, like anything theres good and bad you just have to know the pitfalls to watch out for

Free ads papers are like any other advertising medium.  I have on occasion advertised in our local one myself, and in fact found 3 excellent homes through them over the years which I might not have had if I had not placed my advert there. 

In fact the papers are weher most people looking for a pedigree pet are likely to look.  Has anyone thought that by boycotting them one actualy is leaving the field open entirely to commercial or breeders of ill thought out pin money pups.

One occasionally finds that not all ones litter is spoken for (people backing out last minute, more of one sex born than bookings etc).  Some of the more serious magazines and canine periodicals have a long copy deadline, as much as two months.

I did learn though that ones adverts needed to be worded very carefully to deter some of the real timewasters.  I have always included the fact that parents are hip scored and eye tested and the fact that pups are available to suitable homes only, and include the prive. 

It is then up to me to vet them in the usual way, and because I know that this source is unlikely to have already done much research the grilling they get is more extensive than for someone coming throgh the breed clubs.

In the past our own breed club used to put adverts for the bred club in the Exchange and Mart to reduce the custom to Puppy Farms when this became an issue in the 1970's.

I think we should all try and persuade these papers to havea an advert from the breed clubs of any of the breeds they carry ads for.  Imagine how much ggod this could do?

Something along the lines contact XXX breed club for advice on health and how to source a responsibly bred puppy.

Brainless thats a brilliant idea!

I went to shows etc wasn't on the internet so that wasn't an option and got our girls breeders number through the shows THEN when i went to view and finally bought her in conversation the breeder said she had advertised the last remaining pups in the free ads as the bitch only had one male and although she had a waiting list for Males she didnt for bitches They were keeping the male). We even went for a dog and walked away when she didn't have any (We were only used to dogs) but we had a change of heart and went back again and again and again to make sure we were doing the right thing. (Best thing i ever did as i won't have another dog again only bitches!)

One thing i will say is i never ever bought any of the dog papers and i'm not sure how many people looking for a puppy do? That never crossed my mind to purchase one of them i didn't even know about them until after we brought our girl home.

Trouble with the weekly dog papers it is preaching to teh converted.  they are not generally available usually having to be subscribed to or ordered specially.  These subsribers or those ordering Dog World or our Dogs would already have their dogs or know where to go for one.

I have never had an enquiry through the dog papers, only the magazines, but with those you need to advertise as soon as a bitch is mated.

I've been thinking that we all ought to write to our local newspapers - just the "letters to editors" bit - explaining about sourcing and buying sound puppies from really reliable people.

As we all keep saying, the good breeders rarely have to advertise - so there is no publicity there.  Personally, I didn't notify the local papers when we were going to Crufts, because I didn't want to publicise to any local "low-life" just what we have got - if that makes sense.

Puppy farmers can afford to advertise - after all, it all goes against tax (but what's tax to a PF?) - so people read their names IN the papers.   A colleague of mine was so excited when she got her chocolate lab puppy, and so proud - because her breeder had bred over 1,000 puppies

If somehow, we can raise the profiles of breed societies, by writing to the local papers/magazines, explaining how important health testing/screening is, we chip away another little bit at the Puppy Farmers.

Margot

One of the main Scottish daily tabloids carries a pet page one day a week which usually has a few "Ask the vet" type questions and advertises local companion shows and some open shows.  They also advertise pets (mainly dogs) for sale and were contacted before (either by the KC or SSPCA - can't remember which) to run a header about always seeing a puppy with it's mother etc. - seemed a good idea BUT they still accept adverts week in and week out from sources which are best described as dubious - typically half a dozen or more breeds, Visa accepted, can deliver :( 

>One thing i will say is i never ever bought any of the dog papers and i'm not sure how many people looking for a puppy do? That never crossed my mind to purchase one of them i didn't even know about them until after we brought our girl home. <

Good point - I don't think most ordinary families know anything about where to find adverts for reliable breeders - some may think of going through the KC and then be directed to breed clubs etc., but a tiny minority at best may know that Dog World and Our Dogs exists :(

In the 30 years of my parents having dogs and the last 14 of myself having my own I have never, ever had to advertise and just wouldn't have a litter if I had to, my parents have never had to advertise either.  My breed can't wait until week 10, 11, 12 or whenever they would eventually get sold as they become too attached to the breeder if you kept them this long.  I only ever breed when I've got a long list of people wanting pups.

The thing is though that many people still don't have the internet, they don't buy the dog papers because unless you are showing etc. you wouldn't know about it so these free-ads papers are really the only places where the Gp would look or in pet shop adverts and at vets. 

Excellent point Perrodeagua!
Only now through my bitch do i know exactly what lines i like and don't like and i know exactly where my next dog is coming from but they don't breed very often and it will be several years before i get it due to that as the waiting list is already choc a block. (For both sexes :) )

But as a 1st time puppy owner without the internet its probably the 1st place they would look i would think and Brainless suggestion is excellent the dog magazines advertise rescues/breed clubs why shouldn't the free ads?

Hi Perrodeagua,

Consider yourself lucky then - and your parents :)  Mother Nature and the fickle puppy buying population don't offer cast iron guarantees about anything.  I could have sold a dozen puppies easily had they all been male - but there were 8 pups and only 4 males - and so I passed on enquiries for dog pups to other breeders who had or were expecting litters.  This can and does regularly happen to many well thought of breeders in many breeds ;)

Further complicating my own situation, pick of the litter was staying with me, and 2nd pick (regardless of sex) was for export to America - as the puppies developed it was clear that three bitches were better than any of the males hence all three were run on until 11 weeks before a final decision was made on which was best for my friend in the US.  That meant I had an "extra" bitch puppy, of very good quality, which I had been previously unable to place as I couldn't let her go at the 8 week stage.  Placing that puppy was a nightmare - by that stage I had grown much too attached to her and I consequently nit-picked about and squirmed away from several potential new owners who may well have satisfied my strict criteria previously, but were always some tiny bit short of the mark because of the even stronger emotional ties developed with her.

I turned away a very high profile show home (in a different breed) for that puppy because the person was honest enough to admit that should she not work out for any reason or not get on with the existing breed kept, she would want to rehome her personally rather than return her to me.  This was not acceptable as my main concern was that this adored puppy had a "forever" home as a family pet first and show prospect second.   

There are lots of circumstances that can necessitate the advertising of healthy, well bred, correctly socialised puppies from highly desireable lines.  Personally I would never use a free-ad type of publication to advertise puppies for the same reasons covered by several other posters already but I it's extremely unrealistic to assume that a lengthy waiting list will always equate to an entire litter being spoken for when they are actually on terra firma!  regards, Teri :)

"n the past our own breed club used to put adverts for the bred club in the Exchange and Mart to reduce the custom to Puppy Farms when this became an issue in the 1970's.

I think we should all try and persuade these papers to havea an advert from the breed clubs of any of the breeds they carry ads for.  Imagine how much ggod this could do?"

Brainless I so wished the clubs would do it. Trying to get them to spend a penny is sometime hard though.

Until these papers will be a bit more subjective we are on a loser with them I think.

I know there are exception to every rule. You have been lucky and so has Joan but when you have a look and the ads it is a sorry site to see. :-(

Where there is a buck to be made sadly...

I wonder if more decent breeders advertised listing health te4sts etc then it would show up the bad ones as peopel woudl see that there were such things bing mentioned and perhaps become more discerning. 

Certainly something needs to be done to point the general public in the direction of responsible breeders as the vast majority enmd up with a pup bred by a puppy farmer, or the family pet having a poorly reserached litter with the breeder having little to offer in the way of after sales support.

I help at Pet training classes and only a small number of pedigree dogs have been sourced through good sources.

Maybe owning a little known breed the people who will answer a carefully worded advert in local papers are still only a handful, and they are easily put through normal vetting.  The three pups sold through the local paper over the years (these are now between 6 and 9 years old) have excellent homes with people who had lost much loved dogs and were looking for a change of breed but had no clear idea what they wanted.  I have had homes fail where they were expereinced with the breed, so it is the quality of the home not where one advertises.  There are millions of good responsible pet owners who have basically been shortchanged by poor breeders.

Most responsible breeders do not need to advertise and can place their homes with peopel who reserach and find them, but there are so many nice people who are left to the vultures out there.  By hiding our light under a bushel we are not doing what breed clubs should be promoting our breeds and the breeding of them to the breed standard, as we are making it easy for those peddlign shoiddy goods to do well out of the misery of the poor pups and their new owners.

I advertised my last pup in the free ads.

All the litter were sold by 6 weeks (did not go untill 7 weeks +)- we even had to let 1 lady down as 1 of the pups were a bit poorley & we ended up keeping him as well as the girl we were keeping for showing :-)

By 10 weeks one of the puppies who was 'sold' was still here & no contact from the new owner - there was an £80.00 deposit left on her - which I still have & the pups are now 12 weeks!!

We advertised this last puppy in the free ads - we had loads of calls for weeks after & I did try to tell every one about breed clubs & asking the KC.
This was not known to be a way of buying a pup by any of these callers.

I have seen some awfull adverts in there though :-(